Talk:Congo Free State propaganda war

Article name
I changed the article name to Campaign against Belgian presence in the Congo Free State, in accordance with my interpretation of article-naming policy.

Nicholas Alexander disagreed and changed it back to "The Congo Free State Propaganda War", which is disfavored for a number of reasons, including the introductory "The" and the superfluous capitalization - plus, "Propaganda War" seems a bit too POV-ish to me.

I could move it back, of course, but I'd rather not get into a me-vs-Nicholas-Alexander war. Any thoughts? DS (talk) 13:22, 9 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah. Find the WP:COMMONNAME for it at Google Books and/or Scholar. Go with that. There's nothing wrong with the current title's capitalization, but you don't want WP:OR. — LlywelynII  13:57, 10 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I dislike "propaganda" as well but don't know enough about the topic to know what to call it. I am just here... well, you see what I am doing. I'd appreciate it if someone would read behind me and make sure I have not introduced errors of fact while toning down the point of view. Elinruby (talk) 02:03, 3 December 2011 (UTC)


 * "Propaganda" may have a negative connotation, but it is the most accurate word to describe the events in the article considering it was a sustained and deliberate campaign to present only one side of an argument in order to influence public opinion (which is the word Propaganda's exact denotation). Kernsters (talk) 16:54, 16 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Yes, the current title leaves a lot to be desired. However "Belgian" presence in the Congo Free State? Surely a Belgian annexation was viewed as a positive thing at the time (it was after all what Morel campaigned for!) so something like Campaign against the Congo Free State? Brigade Piron (talk) 13:12, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

Tone
Probably from the same editor as above, there are huge chunks of the text that need to be adjusted to reduce its POViness. Actual change followed the British consul's report; the current lede makes Morel sound like a 19th century cross between a Roman Catholic saint, Woodward, Burnstein, and Erin Brokovich. Certainly, he was on the side of the angels, but he wasn't actually one himself. — LlywelynII  13:57, 10 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I agree. I'll take a stab at toning it down by removing some adjectives. I stumbled across the topic and don't know much about it. But we need facts dammit not adjectives ;) Elinruby (talk) 08:06, 2 December 2011 (UTC)


 * I am taking the template off as I think the article is much improved as far as *language* goes. If someone disagrees and wants to put it back up, that's fine too. To my eye though, while the article is still something of a hagiography, what it needs right now is more *fact* about what *other* people did about this at the period -- Twain and DuBois for instance. Many articles on the French-language wikipedia look a lot like this one did yesterday (and it might be fun to compare the corresponding articles, come to think of it) so I don't think the POV was malicious, just the result of strong beliefs about an admittedly shocking bit of history. But we need to show the shocking, not berate the reader with "let me count the ways that this was shocking and Morel was clever/brave/plucky to help change it."


 * A couple of notes in case I get hit by a bus or something and never come back. There are many sources listed but the specific pieces of information in the article are not tagged. I have mostly accepted the facts as accurate -- except for the King of Belgium controlling ALL the media everywhere in the world, come on -- but the citation police would have fun in here and someone that knows the material and cares about the article would do well to address this. I'll probably put a template up for "inline references would improve the article" but I have to go and don't know the syntax off the top of my head. Also the article should use the lang template for better browser support of accents, which are completely missing. The e in Leopold should have one, for one thing. This is not a trivial matter. A French speaker would consider these misspellings. I'd also appreciate it if the people who have been working on the page would make sure I didn't delete actual facts -- well, I did, but usually because they'd already been mentioned -- or make erroneous assumptions. I tried to be careful tho. Bye ;)

spoke kinda fast -- lotta fluff here
But is there anything useful in


 * is one particular event during the African colonization which involved King Leopold II of Belgium and his tyrannical rule over the Congo Free State. What makes this event so worthy of discussion is not just the horrors that occurred, but rather the


 * le Comité d’Études du Haut Congo, a branch of the IAA, commissioned to be the sole


 * With the southern vote, Leopold’s agents effectively lobbied the rest of Congress. Leopold used the economic growth of the United States to his advantage.


 * Le Comité became another façade for Leopold’s Public Relations (PR) campaign to justify his colonization of the Congo. By creating an expedition that followed the IAA’s goals, Leopold would avoid questioning from anti-imperialists. But, by heading it with Stanley, Leopold assured himself that his true intentions of building his kingdom would be carried out.


 * A pamphlet is an unbound booklet that is without a hard cover or binding. It may consist of a single sheet of paper that is printed on both sides and folded in half, in thirds, or in fourths (called a leaflet), or it may consist of a few pages that are folded in half and stapled at the crease to make a simple book. In contrast to newspapers, the simple production allowed pamphlets to be cheaper to purchase, thus allowing for a greater marketability to a more general audience.


 * The campaign, however, did not die. It would take one man to fully revitalize the missionaries’ work, and in the process use the media with a better effect.


 * Williams: and his humanitarian work became a failure. -- mbiguous, unsourced, normative


 * The interest of European Imperialism in newspapers became so great that stories of it could be found front page. Morel used this interest to his advantage, as he presented his case in his own newspaper.


 * unsourced, unattributed, probably irrelevant: worried about foreigners entering the Congo because he feared they might steal from him; however he


 * By using these types of descriptive words Morel could keep the reader’s attention due to an overall public fascination with death and violence. Morel simply capitalized on this nature by publishing the most horrific pictures and grotesque stories. This consequently caused people to focus on the Congo.


 * was successful with public relations as king.


 * seems dubious: had control over much of the European Press Corps.


 * where, though: Williams pastor of the Twelfth Baptist Church


 * Joining and being involved in an organization at this time was a social norm. An organization is a social arrangement which pursues collective goals, which controls its own performance, and which has a boundary separating it from its environment. During the early 20th century there was a desire for belonging, and joining an organization gave that sense of belonging. Organizations also provided a forum for those who with strong feelings about an issue; for example, the Congo. A structured organization allowed a group of people to effectively communicate their goals and ideas to a larger mass of people. An organization became the perfect way for Morel to take the Congo abuses international because if offered that forum and use of word of mouth.


 * Joining and being involved in an organization at this time was a social norm. An organization is a social arrangement which pursues collective goals, which controls its own performance, and which has a boundary separating it from its environment. During the early 20th century there was a desire for belonging, and joining an organization gave that sense of belonging. Organizations also provided a forum for those who with strong feelings about an issue; for example, the Congo. A structured organization allowed a group of people to effectively communicate their goals and ideas to a larger mass of people. An organization became the perfect way for Morel to take the Congo abuses international because if offered that forum and use of word of mouth.


 * Trying to achieve an international awareness also brought a greater difficulty to the task for which Morel set for himself. Morel knew the public would be swayed by hard evidence. Missionaries, high officials, and photos cannot be refuted due trustworthiness by the public. A religious cleric will generally not lie, especially about something so horrific; nor would a high governmental official. And photos are most undeniable proof that Morel used. That is why in February 1903, he published Roger Casement’s report on the Congo Free State. Morel used his connections in the press and had it published in major newspapers throughout Europe. He had it published in magazines and his own West African Mail. The constant use of undeniable evidence, such as missionary testimony, became the media catalyst that caused people to question Leopold’s constant denying of the situation.

questionable, unsourced: Morel and others faced an able monarch, a man of great intellectual power, skilled in diplomacy, able to influence thousands of social, political, religious and economic channels, and the most influential being his propaganda machine that had influence over the Press.

Elinruby (talk) 08:33, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Tone again (and content) ... oh, and scope
There is no faulting the idea for this page, I just wished as much could be said about the content. There are really three problems that need adressing: Rant ends.Brigade Piron (talk) 13:22, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
 * There are actually very few references used and it is evident that much of the argument is directly copied out of "King Leopold's Ghost" by Hochschild. If you notice, many of the other works are simply used to prove factual (rather than interpretive) detail. This is evident in the relative importance of Morel (in the article) as opposed to other prominent figures like Casemate and the rest of the CRA. It would actually have been nice if the superb bibliography attached to the article had actually been used.
 * What is up with the style? "Humanitarian Disaster", "These enormous [financial] gains came from the destruction" - that's all from one section! I know with the topic (and the emotive writing of Hochschild) it is hard to be impartial, but at least try...
 * The self-appointed scope of the article is bizarre. As I said above, it is a potentially useful title, yet much of the information in the article would be better suited to the article on the Congo Free State. Background is good - in moderation.

Should this article exist? and downfall.
Based on my extensive familiarity with Congo literature, I recommend that the valuable parts of this article would be much better as part of the main Congo Free State article. It will be easier to find for the casual researcher. I found this for the first time today because a student plagiarized it. Also, I deleted the unattributed statement that the Belgian Parliament considered removing Leopold from power and that Leopold died before this could happen. In my years of research on this subject, I have never seen a hint to suggest that the Belgian Parliament ever discussed deposing Leopold as King of the Belgians. Leopold surrendered the Congo on St. Leopold's Day in Nov. 1908 to Belgium in exchange for a large financial settlement. He died a year later, having achieved his most ardent wishes: that Belgium should have a colony and that Belgium should prepare for a possible war with fortifications and military conscription. See Barbara Emerson, Leopold II King of the Belgians for more detail on this. comment added by Finrod2 (talk • contribs) 17:15, 26 September 2012 (UTC) Finrod2 (talk) 16:34, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I certainly agree with you that the article (certainly with the existing title anyway) doesn't merit a seperate article.--Brigade Piron (talk) 16:49, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Alice Seeley Harris
The following sentence was added to the "Missionaries" section. I think it needs fleshing out and references.

Alice seeley Harris she was a missionary and a documentary photographer who took photographs or human rights in congo free state.

-- Elphion (talk) 21:37, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
 * I think it should probably be deleted unless her notability (and relevance to the article) is confirmed by a WP:RS.—Brigade Piron (talk) 09:37, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

Attempt to discredit Morel and Casement
I am removing the section "Political background of Morel and Casement". A copy of this was recently removed from Congo Free State, as violating WP:NPOV, WP:UNDUE, and WP:SYNTH: the section serves principally to suggest incorrectly that both Morel and Casement had ulterior pro-German motives for getting involved in the Congo and publicizing Leopold's atrocities. This is a serious twisting of the history, and is not borne out by any of the standard works on the subject. See talk:Congo Free State for the discussion leading to its removal from that article. -- Elphion (talk) 02:55, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
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 * Nsala of Wala in Congo looks at the severed hand and foot of his five-year old daughter, 1904.jpg

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
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 * MutilatedChildrenFromCongo.jpg

EV Sjöblom
The comment that Leopold managed to silence Sjöblom is not correct. In april 1897 he travelled to London, dying from malaria, and gave public statements about the atrocities committed by the Free State. He wrote and lectured repeatedly to create awareness about what was going on. So the comment ”that he never spoke up again” is slander. Sjöblom died in 1903. 2A00:801:7B6:9AA3:45D8:D818:11DD:25DA (talk) 17:46, 20 December 2023 (UTC)