Talk:Congregation Dorshei Emet/Archive 1

Question about sources
Hi Genevieve. I'm concerned about one of the sources you've used, "Phone conversation with the architect Roseanne Moss on december 29, 2010." The information is very interesting, but do you have any other source for this material? Wikipedia doesn't allow phone conversations as sources, everything used must be already published in reliable sources. Jayjg (talk) 01:19, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes I understands. I have no other reference for the architect Roseanne Moos.--Geneviève (talk) 01:34, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
 * O.K. I'll see what else I can find. Jayjg (talk) 02:06, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I did my best, but I wasn't able to find sourcing for most of it. I've sourced as much as I can, and removed most of the rest, even though it was quite interesting. I'm very sorry, but unsourced information like this will create problems for you when the article is submitted to mainspace, and (as I intend) to DYK. I hope you're not too upset. Jayjg (talk) 05:28, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

last sunday, acts of vandalisms
it is very sad new: The synagogue Dorshei Emet, has be vandalism in exterior. Also two Orthodoxe Synagogue and a jewish school: reference --Geneviève (talk) 11:40, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Canadians Jewish News
 * The Montreal Gazette
 * Jewish Daily Forward
 * (French) Radio-Canada
 * Thank you, I'll try to add a sentence on this. Jayjg (talk) 21:40, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
 * O.K., I put in a couple of sentences. Jayjg (talk) 05:28, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Two websites?
Dorshei Emet appears to have two websites, an older one at http://dorshei-emet.org and a newer one at http://dorsheiemet.com/. Much of the material is duplicated in both. Do you know if they are planning to move to the new one entirely, and shut down the old? Jayjg (talk) 03:37, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Bonjour Jayig Yes the new Website is create since this week (Monday or Tuesday). I don't know if the former Website (Create towards 2009) is going to disappear?. There also the third oldest Website (create towards 2003) but I don't find now on Web ??? I shall ask when I shall go to pray in the Reconstructionist Synagogue.


 * Also I found a article on Shulamis Yelin (one of first lady of Montreal Jews Reconstructionist).

Je vous remercie de votre gentillesse --Geneviève (talk) 14:06, 20 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Another article of Vandalism of Montreal synagogues with small interview with Rabbi Ron Aigen : in The Globe and Mail
 * Thank you. I think we should assume the new website is the accurate one, and link to the old one at the bottom for now. Jayjg (talk) 05:24, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

"Affiliation" section
Geneviève, I've removed the "Affiliation" section from the article. It's not a standard section, I've not seen it in other articles, and we already link to Reconstructionist Judaism in several places in the article. I hope you don't mind. Jayjg (talk) 05:26, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Yes ok --Geneviève (talk) 13:35, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Pictures of the exterior
Geneviève, would it be possible for you to take any pictures of the synagogue's exterior? I think they'd be a great addition to the article, if you could get them. Jayjg (talk) 05:29, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Yes ok --Geneviève (talk) 13:34, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Shabbat shalom Jayjg. I hope you have a Shabbat with happiness, peace and serenity. אני אוהב אותך --Geneviève (talk) 13:38, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Shalom Jayjg, this morning, I was go to pray at the Synagogue. I took 4 photos of outside. Choose the best for you. --Geneviève (talk) 00:30, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks, those are great! Jayjg (talk) 04:31, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Article lede
Good Evening Jayig, I read the new text. I thank you so much for your work. Your history of congregation is formidable. I made some changes. Because I do not meet in your recents corrections. I preferred somme part of former version. examples:


 * I prefer this introduction for the page: Congregation Dorshei Emet (Hebrew: חוקרים של אמת or "Seekers of Truth" in English) also known as the Reconstructionist synagogue of Montreal is located at 18, Cleve Road in Hampstead, Quebec. It is the only Reconstructionnist synagogue in Quebec, and one of the largest Reconstructionist congregations in Canada. Founded in 1960 it is the oldest Reconstructionist synagogue in Canada. 
 * --Geneviève (talk) 02:02, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Geneviève, the article lead must summarize the article itself; that's why I wrote what I did. The previous version was repetitive, and didn't do that. Also, you reinsterted (Hebrew: חוקרים של אמת  or "Seekers of Truth" in English) - it's not really critical for a lede, but more important, it's not accurate. The name isn't  "חוקרים של אמת" it's "בית הכנסת דרשי אמת". In general, I have a lot of experience in getting synagogue articles to GA and FA, so I know what's required in terms of sourcing and writing. Would you mind terribly leaving in my version? Jayjg (talk) 04:49, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Interior section
''All the stained glasses with Ark forms the geometrical figure of the seven-branched candlestick or menorah. During the day, the interior is lit by natural light entering through the translucent walls overhead. At night, the entire building glows from interior artificial lighting. Ornamentation in stained glasses windows are therefore heavily oriented towards symbols (Abstract forms). The luminosity of this wall of the synagogue enlighten everything. Other walls in inside are of pale beige color and an extreme simplicity compared with the wall where are the Ark, and the stained glasses. ''
 * Interior

This seems is to me important. Every time I go to the synagogue it is the architectural element which seduces me.
 * --Geneviève (talk) 02:02, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Geneviève, I think that material is great too, but the problem is that I can't find any sources for it, particularly the architectural material. What is the source? Jayjg (talk) 04:33, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

 Shalom, I regrettably haven't reference written. The architect Roseanne Moss (who also prays in the synagogue) is a humble person. She does not write on her work of achitecte. My only sources are my photos and my eyes. The readers can see photos. I am going to put back the most beautiful of my photo that you regrettably removed.

I thank you, je vous remercie --Geneviève (talk) 13:43, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
 * That's a great photo, I'm happy it's in. It's just that the infobox usually has a picture of the building itself. I'm not sure what we can do about the architectural information; I can remove the tags, but if you leave it in, someone else will just tag it. Jayjg (talk) 16:26, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Egalitarian

 * Please Don't remove this: The Reconstructionist synagogue have a small mezzanine in the floor superior but men and women pray together in the sanctuary ( nothing separation between men and women for prayer services ) 

This is very important for us. We seek to promote the egalitarian men and women. When I am going to pray with my grand-mother (my grand-parents are orthodox) in the Sephardic Synagogue, I respect the difference ( the orthodox traditions): that the women pray behind in a section separated behind curtains. But in Reconstructionist synagogue is very different for women and men (quite as same for the reformists of the Temple Emanu-El-Beth Sholom on Sherbrooke street at Montréal).

Thank you for your listening. אני תודה על שלך צופה. תודה
 * --Geneviève (talk) 02:02, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Hi Geneviève. I've added material about the synagogue's egalitarianism. I can't imagine, though, why people would think that men and women don't pray together. It is only in Orthodox synagogues that they don't; men and women pray together in all other synagogues, including Reform, Reconstructionist, Liberal, and Conservative. Emphasizing this one aspect for just Dorshei Emet would, I think, mislead the reader a bit. I've tried to make it clear instead that men and women have identical roles. Most importantly, the material I've added has a reliable source. We cannot add material that's unsourced, even if we know it to be true. Please let me know what you think. Jayjg (talk) 06:14, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Shalom Jayjg  many readers of Wikipedia are not Jewish (Many have prejudices and do not know that we are not all orthodoxes). Not many non-Jews have visit synagogues and the majority of synagogues in Canada are orthodox. People are surprised when we speak to them about the other affiliations of the Judaism. We have only six Reform synagogues and only three Reconstructionist synagogues in Canada. I believe it is very important of give the information for the not jewish readers. Learn to know the others peoples. I thank you for respecting my ideas. Thank you --Geneviève (talk) 13:53, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Hi Geneviève. I'm just not sure why visitors would assume men and women pray separately though; while it used to be common, say, 200 years ago, it's now very rare in Christian churches (though still almost universal in Islam). Also, there are 28 Reform congregations in Canada, and 22 Conservative congregations. Anyway, I think it's fine to add that men and women pray together, I just haven't been able to find a reliable source for it. Do you know of one? I'll keep looking too. Jayjg (talk) 16:25, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Shalom Jayjg : 28 Reform congregations in Canada. Oupsss I am very sorry for my error. One of my aunts and her new husband are reformist and I know that there is a only one reformist synagogue in Quebec: http://www.templemontreal.ca/. --Geneviève (talk) 16:39, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Good evening for reliable sources: I have a small brochure for visitors  Welcome, congregation Dorshei Emet - The Reconstructionist Synagogue in montreal and I find some photos in Facebook: Dorshei Emet Face-bochers http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2317149764&v=photos&so=0. Can be that the Wikipediens persons does not grant a seriousness to photos and wishes written texts on internet? --Geneviève (talk) 00:05, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Shalom Jayjg,  after reflection, this monrning I removed these phrase (sentences in English ?? my english isn't my first language)  according to your advice. I thank you --Geneviève (talk) 14:18, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
 * It's great that you can write in multiple languages. :-) Jayjg (talk) 02:16, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Shalom Jayjg my English isn't perfection because I lived in a French-speaking environment. My biggest sadness isn't to write Yiddish and Hebrew. I takes lessons of Hebrew but I make a lot errors.--Geneviève (talk) 23:03, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I make errors in all languages, including English. :-) Jayjg <small style="color:darkgreen;">(talk) 00:20, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

"The new building's exterior is in the form of a rectangular solid. The absence of exterior decoration and the forms purified can seem dry."
Hi Geneviève,

What is the source for this? "The new building's exterior is in the form of a rectangular solid. The absence of exterior decoration and the forms purified can seem dry." Thanks, Jayjg <small style="color:darkgreen;">(talk) 04:37, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Shalom Jayjg  this phrase written by me. See you even my 4 photos outsides. My only sources are my photos. Thank you --Geneviève (talk) 13:56, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
 * It's likely true, but my experience with WP:V and WP:NOR says this is not allowed. :-( Jayjg <small style="color:darkgreen;">(talk) 16:17, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Shalom the photos are important in Wikipedia ??? I am not a good photographer but the photos are maybe a serious source of documentation see http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Genevieve2 Thank Jayjg pass a good sunday, i will go Skating outside. Now it is winter in Montreal (see the photos with snow). --Geneviève (talk) 16:47, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't recall photographs being allowed as a source for architectural descriptions. I'll just work on the wording of the material for now. Jayjg <small style="color:darkgreen;">(talk) 02:07, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

'''Great!!! Thanks Jayjg, ''' Best regards --Geneviève (talk) 02:11, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Category:Synagogues in Canada
Hi Geneviève,

I've removed Category:Synagogues in Canada. It's already in Category:Synagogues in Montreal, which is a sub-category of Category:Synagogues in Quebec, which in turn is a sub-category of Category:Synagogues in Canada. We usually only include the lowest level of category, the bottom of the sub-categories, not the categories above it. Jayjg <small style="color:darkgreen;">(talk) 04:57, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Dear Jayjg
Shalom I you asked to help me in this work ... not to control everything in this draft page. I very feel sick to say it to you. I am a new person in English Wikipedia and I am honest in the fact that I go. I know you are a very good person with many of experience on Wikipedia but Please give me a little initiative in the writing of this page. Thank you, merci , תודה --Geneviève (talk) 16:01, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm really sorry you feel that way. I'm just trying to make sure the article is properly written and sourced, and complies with the primary content policies, particularly WP:V, WP:NOR. I feel very bad about this. Jayjg <small style="color:darkgreen;">(talk) 16:17, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

 Shalom Jayjg. Work Together for two persons is never easy. It sometimes asks for adjustments and for concessions. Pass a good sunday, I will go now Skating outside. take care --Geneviève (talk) 16:53, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

 Thank u so much for your work!! Best regards --Geneviève (talk) 02:12, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd like to help finish it off and submit it, if you're still interested. Jayjg <small style="color:darkgreen;">(talk) 02:14, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Shalom Jayjg Yes indeed on. I am still interested. You made a remarkable work. If you want to present this page on Wikipedia,I support you. It suits me. amicalement --Geneviève (talk) 23:07, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
 * O.K., thank you. Jayjg <small style="color:darkgreen;">(talk) 23:13, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Not sure what this means
Geneviève, I'm not sure what this means, or what these references are: "It is therefore interesting, on more special events and music concerts" Can you perhaps explain? Thanks. Jayjg <small style="color:darkgreen;">(talk) 02:13, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Yes tommorrow morning  because now I am so tired and i will go to dodo. --Geneviève (talk) 02:15, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
 * OK thanks, no rush. Jayjg <small style="color:darkgreen;">(talk) 02:21, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Shalom, Good Morning Jayjg I try to explain:
 *  Judaism, culture, music, arts...  and  it is therefore intersting, one more special events and music concerts. For us Reconstructionist, when we speak Judaism are a civilization (reference: The Journals of Mordecai Kaplan and see Who is a Reconstructionist Jew? http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/reconstruction.html ) we mean that Judaism is more thant a religion. Judaism includes a commitmnt to our ancient homeland and language, and we share a love for Jewish culture, Jewish music, Jewish arts. We are heirs to a rich legacy of artistic achievement, ... a legacy that contines to grow in our lifes. Also Congregation Dorshei Emet wants to value the Jewish cultural heritage: It is for that reason that there are Jewish music concerts in the synagogue and a annual Jewish film festival. Furthermore there is an art gallery: the Emet Gallery. This is a part of our philosophy. Can be that my reference ( # 19) did not really explain this. I am going to try to improve it. Thanks --Geneviève (talk) 13:18, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
 * O.K., I've tried to write something that I hope explains that. Jayjg <small style="color:darkgreen;">(talk) 00:05, 26 January 2011 (UTC)