Talk:Conical hat

Page move Conical straw hat --> Conical hat
Please see Talk:Conical_straw_hat. Thank you.Anna Frodesiak (talk) 10:49, 26 May 2010 (UTC) Anna Frodesiak (talk) 04:17, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Hang on on the page delete
I was just reading up a bit more on dab pages and definitions of cones, etc. It seems that "conical hat" should be a good catch-all article with sections for various conical hats with { { main } } where appropriate. I would like input from User:Dbachmann et al on this matter and a new name for "conical straw hat". As it exists in mainly East-Asia, but also other parts of Asia, I suggest renaming that article to Asian conical hat. Is this a good plan?

Sections within this article "Conical hat" would include:


 * Pointy hat
 * Party hat
 * Jewish hat
 * Asian conical hat
 * Dunce cap

Anna Frodesiak (talk) 11:01, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

well, your basic pointy hat is not necessarily conical. Thus pointy hat is actually the more accurate term than "conical hat". "Pointy hat" includes all hats sporting a point, conical or not. --dab (𒁳) 11:14, 30 May 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree. Sorry to drag you into it. It's just that the way it is now seems unsatisfactory. The dab page has only two entries which is not enough to merit the page. Second, "Conical straw hat" should be something like "Conical Asian hat" or the like.

Plan B

 * Considering what you have written, here is another plan:

1. As conical hat is a subset of pointy hat, then should it be a section within pointy hat, with subsections and mains for each conical hat? All of the true conical hats I can find are:


 * Party hat
 * Jewish hat
 * Asian conical hat
 * Dunce cap
 * Capuchon
 * Phrygian cap
 * Capirote
 * Golden hat

2. This article becomes a redirect to pointy hat.

3. Rename Conical straw hat to Conical Asian hat.

What do you think?

Anna Frodesiak (talk) 11:35, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

To be honest, I am not sure what was wrong with the previous arrangement. Because I am not sure a conical hat with an obtuse angle (as in Asian hats) would be described as "pointy" in English. But this is really splitting hairs and I have no wish to be pedantic on this issue. I will happily submit to your judgement in the matter. Please be WP:BOLD and arrange things as you see fit. If there are terminological caveats, we can still introduce them after the fact. --dab (𒁳) 08:12, 31 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Please do take Golden hat into consideration here as well. I'm not suggesting a particular arrangement, just a note that "Conical hat" could conceivably point to Golden hat as well. Good luck in sorting. -- Aryaman (talk) 08:59, 31 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Fair enough. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 10:35, 31 May 2010 (UTC)


 * And the reason why the current arrangement is awkward is that a list of hats shouldn't comprise a dab page. Plus, a dab page is an awkward and inappropriate "portal" for visitors finding out about pointy/conical hats. That's what article sections and subsections are for. My opinion here fits quite well with the guidelines to boot. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 10:45, 31 May 2010 (UTC)


 * The title of "pointy hat" is ridiculous, as endless people have pointed out, and is obvious to any native speaker from either side of the Atlantic. While the article remains there, defended by DABachman to his last breath, and passing teenagers who find the title amusing, it should not be turned into any sort of main group article for the topic. For once I agree with DAB that "coolie" hats are not really pointed enough to be other than a "see also".  Johnbod (talk) 14:33, 31 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Agreed! Then this dab page should be an article containing the list above, right? Dab pages are for things that aren't connected. It's like a dab page for "pie" containing names of different pies.


 * I do agree with you about the pointy hat thing. Pointy is more accurate than pointed, but that is outweighed by the fact that makes people burst into hysterical laughter --me included.


 * If nobody objects, I will build this page as the article and we can be done with it. The defenders of Pointy hat can debate with Oblio and Arrow. Best, Anna Frodesiak (talk) 15:14, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

You will see on the pointy hat talkpage that User:Angr, a native speaker of English from west of the Atlantic who now lives east of the Atlantic and who is also a professional linguist makes quite clear that in his opinion there is nothing ridiculous about the term "pointy hat". Sheesh, I realize it is used in children's stories. This alone isn't sufficient to make something "ridiculous", give us a break.

I haven't even focussed my full attention on this, Johnbod, and I have made clear that I am happy with whatever Anna thinks best, so your silly quip about my "last breath" only goes to show that you have never seen me in action, let alone "defend" anything with any conviction.

I really hope that Anna's "Agreed!" does not extend to Johnbod's uncalled-for and completely gratuitous antagonism. --dab (𒁳) 14:17, 1 June 2010 (UTC)


 * My "agreed" comment was not about you at all. I think you are very patient and helpful, and have given me good guidance too. I do not approve of the quip at all. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 14:37, 1 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Okay. I moved Conical straw hat to Conical Asian hat and will fix the redirects soon.


 * Then I boldly added hats to this article.


 * Then I tried to monkey around with images in User:Anna_Frodesiak/Pink_sandbox. I tried to put them beside each entry, but there were too many. So, I left them in a gallery below.


 * If you think that a { { main } } is better that just linking the section titles to the main articles, let me know and I will change it. I'll fix it up more soon. Change it back if you don't like it. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 16:27, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Merging of pointed hat and conical hat
Even before I saw this discussion, I was about to propose that the two articles should be merged somehow. It is not really clear what the distinction is, and at present there is substantial overlap between the contents of the two articles. For example, all but one of the pictures on the pointed hat page depict hats that are clearly conical:

The subject matter at pointed hat includes witch's hats, hennins, Ku Klux Klan hoods, and dunce caps, all of which are conical. If this material was removed from pointed hat and merged here, pointed hat would be quite small. I suggest that the two pages be merged; I have no special preference for where to merge them to. —Mark Dominus (talk) 13:07, 26 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I have asked the maths people what they think.  Anna Frodesiak (talk) 15:18, 26 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't think maths should talk about fashion but I did notice that there seems to be no sources which deal with the overall topic. As far as I can see both pointed hat and conical hat are topics which have been made up. Can someone find a source which actually talks about pointy or conical or such like hats as a subject in itself? Perhaps a chapter of as book about hats devoted to this particular shape through history? Otherwise I'd say they should just be turned into disambiguation pages. 18:18, 26 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't know what Wikiproject mathematics has to do with it; I have posted at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Fashion asking for input. It seems to me the article is useful to direct readers onward and should not be deleted.  —Mark Dominus (talk) 20:52, 26 July 2010 (UTC)


 * In the past, the debate has been over whether or not all conical hats are pointy, and can a really obtuse angle mean that it has no point, if a cone is a bit floppy, is it still conical, etc. I think this is more in the area of maths than fashion. But let's see what fashion has to say. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 02:43, 27 July 2010 (UTC)


 * That seems silly to me. "Conical" does not refer only to objects that are exact geometric cones.  It has an ordinary colloquial sense that means any approximately cone-shaped object.  See, for example, the definition in the Oxford English Dictionary, which includes citations referring to conical mountain summits, conical teeth, and conical taproots such as carrots.  Clearly none of these objects are precisely conical in the mathematical sense.  The article is about hats, not geometry.  —Mark Dominus (talk) 04:54, 27 July 2010 (UTC)


 * You are making sense. Where were you during the last debate? Plus, the math people say that all conical hats are pointy. So, if this is correct, then maybe we should make conical hat into a section within pointed hat. It would put everything about pointed hats under one roof. I think visitors would find it very useful. They could come to the page trying to find out what that darn pointed hat is called that they saw in some old history book, and have all the hats with pictures right there. That's why I put this article together in the first place. What do you think? Anna Frodesiak (talk) 06:12, 27 July 2010 (UTC)


 * That sounds good to me. —Mark Dominus (talk) 13:23, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Dandy. Let's give it some time to see if others have something to say. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 13:44, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Well, it's a week later, and all silent. Please, feel free to merge. Anna Frodesiak (talk) 08:28, 3 August 2010 (UTC)