Talk:Conjoined twins

21st Century Began with 2001
Someone incorrectly listed conjoined twins born in the year 2000 under the 21st Century. I moved them to the 20th Century list. FYI, the 21st century began on 1 January 2001. The year 2000 was the last year of the 20th Century.

For future reference, in case anyone needs it, there was no year numbered '0' because the Anno Domine system of counting years was established retroactively (see the article on the Julian and Gregorian calendars for details):

First Century, AD 1 - AD 100 (or 1 CE - 100 CE) Second Century, AD 101 - AD 200 ... Tenth Century, AD 901 - AD 1000 Eleventh Century, AD 1001 - AD 1100 ... Twentieth Century, AD 1901 - AD 2000 Twenty-First Century, AD 2001 - AD 2100

Unlike birthdays and anniversaries, which are counted from the end of a year, centuries and monarchial epochs are counted from the beginning of a year.

Thus, although 6 February 1953 was the first anniversary of Queen Elizabeth II's accession; the first year of her reign began 6 February 1952.

Likewise, the year 2000 marked the second millenium Anno Domine - that is, it marked the end of 2000 years of tabulation. But the third millenium and, with it, the twenty-first century, did not begin until 2001.

First decade of 21rst Century: 1/1/2001 - 31/12/2010 Second decade: 1/1/2011 - 31/12/2020 Third decade: 1/1/2021 - 31/12/2030 ... Ninth decade: 1/1/2081 - 31/12/2090 Tenth decade of 21rst Century: 1/1/2091 - 31/12/2100

The 22nd Century will begin 1/1/2101.

76.126.3.38 (talk) 08:02, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Conjoined twins in popular culture
I shortened this section and kept in more well-known references to the best of my ability. The list was getting frivolous. In my opinion, I think that the list of conjoined twins section should also be shortened as it contains many dead links.Daskos99 (talk) 01:55, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Two-Headed Monster from Sesame Street. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Drsruli (talk • contribs) 18:33, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Joe-Jim Gregory from Heinlein's Orphans of the Sky. 104.153.40.58 (talk) 18:57, 10 December 2022 (UTC)

The earliest known documented case of conjoined twins dates from the year 945??
It is certainly not the earliest known record of conjoined twins. There are records of conjoined twins in China dates from the years 1AD, 176AD, 184AD, 316AD.

Conjoined triplets
The article makes no mention of the possibility, or any documented cases, of conjoined triplets or quadruplets. It seems more information can be found (with library references), [ http://askville.amazon.com/conjoined-triplets-siamese/AnswerViewer.do?requestId=8776166 here] and here. 70.241.97.2 (talk) 20:10, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes it does, I wrote that section of the article. I noted the confirmed cases of Conjoined Triplets, and also gave examples of other cases were a set of triplets consists of two conjoined babies, and an example of one documented case where a set of Quadruplets had Conjoined Twins born in it. Why was this deleted? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.207.48.109 (talk) 03:30, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Medical specimens
Image:Human conjoined twins DSC09364.jpg

Those photos of medical specimens are gruesome -- does anyone have a picture of living, healthy human conjoined twins? - Montréalais 20:53, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Agreed. I'm not for censorship but those are quite horrible. violet/riga (t) 21:59, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * Right. To clarify, I didn't mean they should be]] [ Bjarmason]  16:12, 2004 Dec 22 (UTC)
 * I've replaced the two-headed-corpse-in-bottle picture with the one from Chang and Eng Bunker. Plop 10:59, Jan 19, 2005 (UTC)
 * The picture of Chang and Eng is fine. I'm removing the other human one; feel free to put it back if you so desire. Junkyardprince | Tark 03:33, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * I put the pictures back in, first of all because having another one does not cause trouble with the current layout (fits just perfectly), and second if one was to be removed I nominate the cattle, the anatomy of a human featus is better recognizable to the target audiance. &mdash;Ævar Arnfjörð Bjarmason
 * I'll admit to being a bit surprised by the fetus picture when I came here to do the disambig. How about if it's moved into third place, so it's below the fold (so to speak), as a compromise? &mdash;Korath (Talk) 07:12, Mar 4, 2005 (UTC)
 * that seems like the best course of action to me. Thryduulf 22:18, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Siamese Twin's - Pejorative?
Th only source is an author's opinion on the subject from a single article. Can we say it is pejorative based on the opinion of one reporter? Either it needs more sources, needs to be elaborated, or just removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.28.80.185 (talk) 23:17, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Stuck on You
Should mention movie on subject. --Daniel C. Boyer 23:48, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Fission theory vs. Fusion theory?
I read that there are two different theories of how siamese twins come to be - the more commonly known one being the "fission" theory (an egg fails to completely seperate and thus two babies are joined), but the "fusion" theory (soft tissue during the first few weeks of birth joins when twin babies are cramped together in the womb) explains twins who are joined back to back, and would bring a measure of credulity to the term "conjoined".
 * Although the fission theory was once widely accepted, modern experimentation appears to have refuted it and confirmed that conjoined twins are caused by "fusion" . Schzmo 22:17, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
 * The fusion theory, as it is popularly known, does not quite say what people think it does. The fusion, such as it is, happens when each embryo is about 3 layers of cells thick.  Calling this "fusion" gives an impression of two fully formed fetuses merging, which is not accurate.  Furthermore, more recent research contradicts the review cited.  See, e.g.,  Childs Nerv Syst. 2004 Aug;20(8-9):508-25. Epub 2004 Jul 27. []: "Conjoined twinning occurs by the incomplete splitting of the embryonic axis and, with the exception of parasitic conjoined twins, all are symmetrical and "the same parts are always united to the same parts". Fusion of monozygotic twins is no longer believed to be the basis of conjoined twinning." Nandesuka 01:02, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Is it possible for conjoined twins to be opposite genders? I haven't found anything about this besides Chimera twins. Those are just one person though...Is it possible to have two distinct twins that are opposite genders? It doesn't really sound possible with the fusion theory unless sex is determined(or maybe it could mutate?) past the point where the fusion happens. Also, can you have say conjoined triplets, or even quads or more? Emzly_Emzie

ok gender does not mutate like that. there have been cases of conjoined triplets, and as for quads, only in a situation where there were the four babies, two of which were joined. conjoined twins are identical genetically. there is evidence that too much sonic hedgehog protein (i am NOT making that up, it was discovered and named in the eighties), a protein involved in establishing the midline of a person, causes duplication of the face. it seems that some twining is like this :""Conjoined twinning occurs by the incomplete splitting of the embryonic axis and, with the exception of parasitic conjoined twins, all are symmetrical and "the same parts are always united to the same parts". " but definitely not all. the worlds oldest twins are joined at the head on an angle and are not symmetrical. There is more than one cause of these conditions.

Still did not get an answer on whether or not conjoined twins can be male-female. I'm assuming so since I've heard of Chimeras that have both male and female genitalia, and they are (in a sense) conjoined twins. Emzly_Emzie


 * You did get an answer on the male-female question, if the person above you is right about gender "not mutating like that". (Conjoined twins could only be different genders if one's gender mutated.) However, that person also said that there have been conjoined triplets and I know of no such case (and have read that there has been no such case). There have just been identical triplets where two are conjoined. That person also said that the world's oldest [conjojned] twins (presumably meaning Lori and Reba Schappell, actually just the oldest female conjoined twins) are not symmetrically joined, but they are - just rotationally rather than laterally. Salopian (talk) 15:43, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

one brain
"In some cases, parts of the brain have been known to be shared between conjoined twins joined at the head." any examples of this? survivability? seems to be an incredible event with many implications. Oh and that picture is truly gruesome.

hey is this how you answer a question? well, there are a couple of little girls from italy due to be seperated in June 07 who share a little brain matter. if i remember correctly, its part of one girl's occipital lobe and somewhere around the other's pariatal lobe that overlap. I have no idea how they'll make their way around this problem when they seperate them, but they have to, because both kidneys of one of the girls are failing.

Venna And Vani shared a brain.look it up on google images.Coolgirly88 20:58, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

The Pain
Does the mother feels more pain then a normal chlid birth?
 * I would think that women pregnant with conjoined twins would have a c-section. Emzly_Emzie
 * I would think so as well, but in earlier times (middle ages and before), how did they a) diagnose conjoined twins and b) perform a c-section without the mother dying? Jalwikip 15:07, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

In Uzbek city Khorezm were born new conjoined twins
July 21, 2006. New babies in Uzbek city Khorezm were born conjoined earlier this month according to news website ferghana.ru. Babies are boys. They are conjoined from the front abdomen and share common liver which will probably cause one of the babies' fatality in case if they will be separated.  []

Crappy article
This article has nothing at all about how it actually works - how they control the body, etc. --SPUI (T - C) 23:37, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
 * And can conjoined twins legally marry or have children, I'm particularly refering to those with only on set of sexual organs. For example, who were the oldest living Dicephalus twins, and did they have one spouse or two?

Yes, we really need info about how "they" work, as with the body and organs and stuff. What if one commits suicide and the other lives on, what happens. Many questions can be answered to quench the thirst for knowledge!

^ I'm pretty sure the other one would die pretty soon after the first. Depending on where they're joined etc, one generally can't survive without the other. I saw a documentary about Chang and Eng. As I recall, Eng liked to drink a lot but Chang was a teetotaller. When Eng had been drinking would Chang also feel drunk?


 * Yeah, this article really needs some more information. It gives me plently of examples of the types of conjoinings and lists people that are conjoined, but like I wanna know like, what if one of the twins wants to move their arm one way and the other one wants to move it the other way? Do they like each get one arm each or what. If one person eats does the other twin get to eat or only feel full?


 * I'd think that each individual case of conjoined twining would be different. Thus, it would be difficult to say how they function.  Emzly_Emzie

On the legal front, what would happen if one of a pair of conjoined twins committed a crime? Unlikely though it sounds, it might be possible with a pair of pypopagus or other twins with control of one or two arms each. Would they both go to prison, even if one was innocent? Twit8514 —The preceding  signed but undated.


 * The twins Violet and Daisy Hilton, who had a silent/early sound movie career, made a film on that topic. It's really hard to track down though, sadly.. 79.68.57.25 (talk) 11:33, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

What's the word...?
Its like a weasal word but its put by some one who is sypathetic &/or suppotive to what the article concerns and put there to make it sound more good then it really is? Whatever its called, all the articles linking from this page are FULL of them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.250.130.215 (talk • contribs)

Systemic bias in "Conjoined twins in history" section
The "Conjoined twins in history" section seems to address the subject mainly from a Western/European perspective. I highly doubt that the "earliest known case" of the condition in all of human history dates from A.D. 945. Most of the other examples discussed seem to be of European or American origin as well. --Slowking Man 05:43, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Organization
I think the "Types of Conjoined Twins" should perhaps be put before the "History" section -- reading the History, it mentions what types of twins certain people were, which leaves one a bit confused until they read the Types section.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.15.127.230 (talk • contribs) 23:51, 13 April 2007


 * Hear, hear. --Kingers 17:49, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

meaning
does anyone know why siamese twins are called saimese twins? Is it racially/ethnicity linked or is it just one of those things? Started by ignorant people because they had a grudge? Does anyone know the origins of the term? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.81.253.110 (talk) 05:21, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Because chang and ang bunker were born in Siam,thus ghiving the name,"Siamese twins"Coolgirly88 20:59, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

During pregancy
When they do scans during pregnancy, is it obvious that the twins are cojoined, and can they tell the extent or anything like what organs are shared? Or is it one of those things you only find out after giving birth? 79.68.57.25 (talk) 11:33, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Documented Cases
I'm wondering if there are any documented cases of attempting to separate conjoined twins using an axe.

Any info on this would be greatly appreciated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.24.72.172 (talk) 08:59, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Juridical questions/problems
It would be good to have some information about how different countrys handles with the juridical problems that can appear with conjoined twins. Crime and punishment (what if one of them must go to jail?), marriage (juridical, sexual AND religion questions), ID-cards, voting, parentals (who is the mother/father), taxes (one or two tickets for airplane, cinema, buffet, doctors payments, etc), driving license (some has succeeded this). Or juridical conflicts between the twins.

In the case this problems has appear it would be intresting to know how it was solved. Fabbe (talk) 15:22, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Abigail and Brittany Hensel both have driving licences, and both had to sit their test. I seem to remember a program about them last year.82.6.1.85 (talk) 21:49, 17 August 2010 (UTC)Lance Tyrell.

Painting used twice: Bunker twins
Is it necessary to use the painting of the Bunker twins twice in this article? --Ericdn (talk) 11:25, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Other Conjoined Twins
I don't see the Bailey twins (Emma and Taylor) born in 2006,who share a heart (and are up for separation soon),mentioned here.They are the longest living conjoined twins who share a heart. Currently a campaign called Two Sisters/One Heart is being utilized to help raise funds for their upcoming surgery.

www.emmaandtaylorbailey.blogspot.com/

Also Lisa Chamberlain,from Britain,is expecting conjoined twins,who also,at this point,appear to share a heart,with connecting fully-formed bodies as well.I do not know her due date. Nc40lady (talk) 15:34, 28 May 2009 (UTC)Nc40lady

There is also another set of conjoined twins missing from this list. Fonda and Shannon Beaver. They were born in 1980, have been separated, and are doing well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sebeaver (talk • contribs) 04:23, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

I also don't see Angela and Amy Lakeburg,they were relatively well known, weren't they, even without the father's criminal actions? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.201.144.231 (talk) 06:29, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

An old italian Magazine (Tempo dated June 20, 1953) shows four photos of little Rodney Dee Brodie, the sole survived craniopagus twin after the surgery made at the Illinois Medical Center of Chicago on December 17, 1952. --95.176.204.233 (talk) 09:40, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

Book
In Kendra and Maliyah's case, it says that the book is the only book written by a parent of conjoined twins, but thisisn't true. Parents of former conjoined twin Lea Block have written a book about their experiences.--24.138.78.39 (talk) 11:35, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Please provide a reliable source to verify this. Thanks,  fetch  comms  ☛ 02:42, 28 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I need a book title and ISBN to check before change the article, more specifically. -- The New  Mikemoral  ♪♫ 02:44, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

they are rare .. hahaahah .... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.54.98.94 (talk) 12:19, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

sydney katie lexie alex carly laurn and erin are all conjoined sexatillians and they only pay for 1 movie ticket and 1 plaine ticket and they love hickeys--174.116.160.101 (talk) 16:14, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Rosa Blazek Pregnancy
In the article Rosa Blazek's pregnancy is stated as fact, but there are conflicting doctor's reports. A port-mortem autopsy was said to have shown evidence that neither twin had ever been pregnant (http://thehumanmarvels.com/?p=139). According to the comments there was a doctor who claimed to have been present for the birth. I don't have primary sources for any of this conjecture, so I'm not going to change the article at this time. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.253.187.182 (talk) 13:49, 18 June 2010 (UTC) Two days ago on Australian "60 Minutes"(Nine Network) I learnt of Macey and MacKenzie Garrison, not mentioned in your list of cases.-Geoffrey Hilliard —Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.32.83.115 (talk) 03:23, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Shalonda and Renesha
I've removed from the first the following parenthetical information: "(also known as Shalonda or a Renesha)". These are not terms I had heard before, and a quick google search brings up no information on their relevance to conjoined twins. The article does not explain the etymology or significance of these terms. They may be terms used in another language for conjoined twins, but unless somebody can show their use in English or relevance to English-language material, I think it is better to leave them out. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.61.192.150 (talk) 00:36, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Are conjoined twins always identical twins?
I've seen reports of apprently normal individuals who turn out to be a fusion of two genetically distinct individuals: this can upset DNA testing. So I'm wondering if some of them are genetically distinct. --GwydionM (talk) 19:33, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

Individuality
Would twins joined at the head/brain be one person with an extra body on their head, or have separate minds/personalities? Also, do they share the same DNA? 142.166.204.52 (talk) 01:21, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Correction re Craniopagus Twins
The following statement is inaccurate: "In 1987, Ben Carson made medical history by being the first surgeon in the entire world to successfully separate conjoined twins (the Binder twins) conjoined at the back of the head (craniopagus twins). Operations to separate twins joined in this way had always failed, resulting in the death of one or both of the infants."

The first successful separation of craniopagus twins was in fact performed in 1979 by Dr. Theodore S. Roberts et al at the University of Utah Medical Center.

Please google "Lisa and Elisa Hansen" and/or refer to these newspaper articles:

99.28.65.29 (talk) 06:26, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Why does "ectopagus" redirect here?
Not mentioned in article. 109.157.79.50 (talk) 21:57, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

Conjoined twins in ficiton
Need to mention the movie "Twin Falls Idaho" (1999). 173.167.122.145 (talk) 08:21, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

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I don’t know how to upload an image. So, could someone do it?
There is a fantastic second-hand source from John Skylitzes who made a book in which contained many images of various stuff. In one of them he has made some drawing of the separation of the conjoined twins in which happened in Constantinople in the 940’s. The image is in that text beneath. You can see how some doctors examine the conjoined twins, and at the end you can see how they try to separate the dead body of the death one:

http://www.medievalists.net/2014/01/the-case-of-conjoined-twins-in-10th-century-byzantium/

About John Skylitzes:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Skylitzes

Can anybody upload the image?

En historiker (talk) 19:02, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

maths issue
Conjoined twins are identical twins[1] joined in utero. An extremely rare phenomenon, the occurrence is estimated to range from 1 in 49,000 births to 1 in 189,000 births, with a somewhat higher incidence in Southeast Asia and Africa.[2] Approximately half are stillborn, and an additional one-third die within 24 hours. Most live births are female, with a ratio of 3:1.[2][3]

This means there are 700 Siamese twins in the UK alone? How come I've never seen two? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Darcourse (talk • contribs) 09:32, 25 March 2018 (UTC)


 * I'd love to help puzzle this out with you, but I get between 60 and 230, going by the 2019 population estimate on United Kingdom (which I grant is a population estimate and not a statistic on everyone conceived in the timespan that would lead up to conjoined people alive right now, but still. To be fair, even just looking at Stillbirth and Miscarriage suggests I should be at least doubling that number, which may be where the discrepancy between my numbers and yours comes from). Can you show the math you're doing and which numbers you're using?
 * In any case, part of the puzzle you're facing is likely that the numbers in the quoted section don't yet factor in further mortality after 24 hours (but before you might encounter them strolling down the street) and, more importantly, that you might not realise the survivors are conjoined twins, given they may have gotten separated.
 * The other part may be sheer statistical distribution. If conjoined twins appear completely randomly, you might need to, even before factoring in the things mentioned in the previous paragraph, be aware of 49 000 (distinct) people before you'd become aware of one.
 * I hope those last bits help a bit whenever you check back here. :)
 * -pinkgothic (talk) 01:05, 25 January 2020 (UTC)

Missing Allison and David Lawler's twins from 2001
I was reading the article and noticed that it did not include Allison and David Lawler's conjoined twins, Mary Grace and Elizabeth Rix. Information from this was gained from https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1121413/. The twins were successfully birthed, but died shortly after. They were joined at the heart. Yes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:B7D0:D4C0:D0BE:159D:AE23:1F15 (talk) 00:30, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

Fiction
This article had more than 40 examples of characters in al types of fiction, a mixed grab-bag of trivia that is exactly what wikipedia topic articles are not supposed to be. I have removed most of them, except notable examples where the twins are the central point of the fiction (rather than just one of several characters). If somebody wants to create a list article, you can find the entire list in an earlier edit. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 16:34, 26 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Hello @DavidWBrooks, I did too: Apart from almost no sourcing, there was also a WP:PROPORTION problem. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:43, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Placement of the lamb photo
I think placing the photo of the conjoined lambs in the "notable people" section is in poor taste. Please consider moving it elsewhere in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.196.203.200 (talk) 15:14, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Unclear sentence in the intro regarding survival rates
"Approximately half are stillborn, and an additional one-third die within 24 hours."

This strikes me as unclear. One-third of the remaining half that aren't stillborn, or like one-third overall, from the original total? As in, 50% stillborn, 33% within the next day, 17% survive? 68.119.87.117 (talk) 15:18, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

room = chamber of the heart?
Is it standard English to refer to the four chambers of the human heart aw "rooms"? TomS TDotO (talk) 03:26, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

Triplets
Should anything be mentioned about conjoined triplets or the only known case of them?https://www.ajog.org/article/S0002-9378(04)01826-5/abstract Startrain844 (talk) 18:47, 31 May 2024 (UTC)