Talk:Conocotocko I

Conflicting information in different sources
There are conflicting authorities on the subject of the identity of this and other Cherokee chiefs, as well as the relevant dates. According to the 1999 book The Cherokees and Their Chiefs: In the Wake of Empire by Stan Edward Hoig, University of Arkansas Press, "Old Hop" died in 1760 and was succeeded by Kanagatucko, also known as "Standing Turkey." Similar information appears in a footnote on page 111 of the 2007 book The Memoirs of Lt. Henry Timberlake: The Story of a Soldier, Adventurer, and Emissary to the Cherokees, 1756-1765 by Duane H. King, published by the The University of North Carolina Press, which says that Williams incorrectly identified Kanagatucko (who became civil chief of Chota after Old Hop's death in December 1760) as "Old Hop." Both of these sources are contrary to the current version of this article. --Orlady (talk) 00:04, 20 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Kanagatucko and his nephew Kunagadoga, (whose names translate to "Stalking Turkey" and "Standing Turkey" respectively) were two different people with unfortunately (for historians) very similar names in either language. Chuck Hamilton (talk) 21:50, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

More on the name
The name was perhaps a problem even in 1761. The Amherst letters (British Manuscript Project, reel 34/40) include a speech given by Colonel Stephen to the Cherokees, 20 November 1761. It starts with "Gonocotocko". This seems more likely to be Kanagatucko than Kunagadoga, which would suggest that Kanagatucko was alive in 1761, unless Stephen got his names mixed up. A transcription of the speech is below (any errors are mine):  Colonel Stephen's speech to the King & Governor, Warriors and other Headmen of the Cherokee Nation.

Gonocotocko,

You have brought to this camp a Copy of the Treaty of Peace which Governor Bull has made with the Cherokee Nation, and it is impossible to doubt but you & your People are sensible of the Generosity & Favourable terms granted to them.

You have escaped very happily! Had you not Prevented it by your earnest solicitations of Peace, the troops under Colonel Grant marching into your Country on one side, whilst the number you see here extend it on the other, must have Effectively ruined your Nation.

A Peace is now concluded, upon your Nations Promising to Perform certain Conditions, but as you are a People without law, without order, or subordination; and as your rash young men can do whatever they Please with impunity, contrary to the advice of your old & wise People; I beg leave to ask you how you can be answerable to their Performing the Conditions upon which the Peace is granted to them.

The case is this: whilst your People are wise and observe this Treaty you will find your Elder Brother the English your best Friends. There will be large quantities of Goods brought to this Post, & you will have the advantage of trading here, or in South Carolina as it best suits your interest.

Your Elder Brother by his situation here, resembles an arm of the Great King stretched over the mountain between you & your Northern Enemies, to Protect you from them; whilst your People behave well they may Hunt Promiscuously with the Warriors & English to be left at this Post, always remembering that the Peace is made with Virginia, North Carolina, and all the King's Subjects as well as with the People of South Carolina.

But if your Young men are rash, & commit any outrage, you and your leading men shall be first informed of it, & it will be expected that you will do Justice, & Punish the offender; But if you are deaf to this application & delay such Punishment, there will be at this Post a sett of Warriors accustomed to fight from their infancy; who will seize and Punish the offender according to the nature of his crime.

Camp at the Great Island

November 20th 1761 Hattrick (talk) 08:55, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Not colonial
Colonial implies at some level being under the power of a foriegn authorit. Kanagatucko never recognied auhority beyond the Cherokees. He should not be classed as colonial.John Pack Lambert (talk) 23:02, 17 November 2012 (UTC)


 * This is one of a number of discussions (started by John Pack Lambert) that are forked from Categories for discussion/Log/2012 November 16. Rather than conduct discussions of this topic in a dozen different places, let's have just one discussion. Please continue the discussion at the WP:CFD page. --Orlady (talk) 06:10, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

Requested move 26 December 2017

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: Page moved. (non-admin closure)  sami  talk 00:14, 3 January 2018 (UTC)

Kanagatucko → Connecorte – Virtually all modern scholarship refers to Old Hop as "Connecorte". This includes leading scholars in Cherokee history, such as Oliphant, Tortora, Dowd, and Starr among others. He gives his name as Connacorte in a letter collectively written by the Upper Cherokees to Governor Glen as well (Documents Relating to Indian Affairs, 1750-1754, McDowell, 486). Given that Old Hop will typically be listed as Connecorte in book indexes, it makes more sense for his name to be given in a way that will be more identifiable. Omniferous (talk) 20:35, 26 December 2017 (UTC)


 * OPPOSED [now changed: see below]: Henry Timberlake, who actually knew Old Hop, called him "Kanagatucko" in his memoirs. The Tennessee Historical Magazine used the name in an article in 1922.  I'm not opposed to moving this page in principle, but the actual best option for the average person looking to find an article on the subject would be to move it back to "Old Hop". Chuck Hamilton (talk) 23:12, 26 December 2017 (UTC)


 * FURTHER INFO: I edited the sentence previously here because it was incorrect. According to Raymond Evans in his article, "Notable Persons in Cherokee History: Ostenaco", Connecorte was indeed the same person as Old Hop, although he incorrectly states that Stalking Turkey and Standing Turkey were the same, both referring to Connecorte.  Connecorte was Stalking Turkey; Cunne Shote was Standing Turkey.  That is, in truth, not the case. Chuck Hamilton (talk) 01:45, 28 December 2017 (UTC)


 * FURTHERMORE: I change my opinion to APPROVE, provided the link here forwards to the new location and that Kanagatucko is listed as one of the "aka"s.


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.