Talk:Conservation and restoration of cultural property

OUT OF DATE and ALSO NOT WORLD VIEW
http://www.ecco-eu.org/documents/ecco-documentation/index.php gives a EUROPEAN perspective, whcih also applies to the UK. Perhaps some expert coudl add the relevant bits - as this seems to be quite a lot of info I woudl rather not add it here. BUT it should be here as more recent than most of the article.

Page move
Hiya, I see the page is getting moved around a bit. I have no preference on page title, but as a suggestion on wiki-procedures, please be aware that if a move is controversial, it should be proposed first at the talkpage. If there is disagreement, it should be listed at Requested page moves, and then let an uninvolved third party make the decision on whether or not there is consensus for the move. Thanks, --Elonka 18:05, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Okay, understood. Perhaps I was a bit rash in moving this back --Richard McCoy (talk) 18:49, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

The page has been moved again! I can see how the title Art Conservation doesn't appear to encompass all conservation related professions. However, when there is a seperate page for restoration, it seems unnecessary to hyphenate this page as conservation-restoration. Perhaps the two can be renamed as Conservation (art) and Conservation (restoration)?

I believe the article does a good job at further identifying the various specializations, many of which may fall outside the realm of "fine art." If you do a search on google, just using the words "conservation restoration," you will get a page that has some links to the type of conservation/restoration we are discussing here; however, you will also get a number of links for plant, water and nature conservation. Similarly, if you do a search for "art conservation restoration," you will see a page that only brings up links to the conservation of art, paintings, objects, cultural heritage, and etc. I think this shows why we need to have something more definitive for a title. Would something like Conservation (art and artifacts) be more descriptive?

I'm just throwing out ideas to get some discussion going. I think we should post this at Requested page moves if an agreement isn't reached soon, or if users keep changing the name without discussion. --CristaPack (talk) 22:05, 12 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I've moved this topic up to the top because I think it's currently the most important question regarding this article.

I agree with CristaPack that it is important to recognize how Google searches relate to how we understand and define conservation.

While my first reaction was that the article should remain "Art conservation" and not "Conservation-restoration," but I'm not so sure anymore. I think that the definition of this profession is still in need of thought and discussion -- more opinions, other thoughts, etc.

Clearly, there is a semantic, practical, and even an etymological difference between the US understanding and definition of conservation and restoration and internationally. It is a difficult thing to write a definition in English (which in many ways is a universal language) that encompasses all of the other permutations and nuances of the profession throughout the world. This is a challenge, and one that we should not back away from.

If this article is to remain as it is titled now, then work needs to be done on the other articles that link here that are referencing it as "Art conservation."

I'm most interested in Lmspfs' rational and thoughts on this because this person has changed the title.

--Richard McCoy (talk) 13:46, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree, making a decision as to the title of this article is important. It is a shame you can't simply allow disambiguations on wikipedia and just call it conservation.
 * I actually like the "conservation-restoration" idea, but worry it is going to be confusing for an american audience.
 * I never liked "art conservation" as a term, as its way to restrictive... not all cultural heritage is art, after all. It is also not a term that is used in England other than for the conservation of painted works of art, and such like. I do not call myself an art conservation, although that does not mean I have not conserved works of art. Just to confuse things!
 * I say we leave it as it is "conservation-restoration" and work on tightening up the definitions to be more broadly applicable, and also work on the history section, to incorporate more of a narrative than a list of people (now we have the beginnings of a list, from which some bio's have been added). We can then add more people into the narrative, in the hope that soon their bios will be added too.
 * It appears that Lmspfs is unlikely to respond, having not commented on the talk pages. --Daniel Cull (talk) 18:56, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Were people aware that there is this page as well to consider: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiques_restoration --Daniel Cull (talk) 14:13, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

As you have discussed 'art conservation' is too narrow as an aggregate definition of a range of activities engaged with preserving cultural heritage. 'Art conservation' needs to be cut from the opening line of the page [otherwise the non-sequitur remains] and replaced with 'conservation-restoration' for consistency. Google/'conservation' brings up http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation where Conservation-restoration is suitably indexed.Jdkemp (talk) 16:37, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

Restoration
One can not say that the opposite of art restoration is art destruction when restoration is not, in fact, bringing the orignal art work back or saving it. It simply invents a new version, a close approximation, of the original or how we imagine the orignal once was. One of the great writers in the field, John Ruskin, (The Seven Lamps of Architecture,1886) called restoration the ultimate destruction. Preservation and conservation, at their core, are closer to an opposite of destruction. Spunth 05:32, 19 August 2006 (UTC)


 * This article is in the beginning stages and needs a lot of work. This is a fairly complex field, one that is charged with the care of cultural property.  Ricardisimo 15:41, 20 October 2006 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by RichardMcCoy (talk • contribs)


 * In fact 100 years after Ruskin's book are passed, and the people who don't work in the field, talk more and more. Please come in any  institute for art conservation and talk with some Professional C-Restorer.
 * Our work is changed in the last 20 year, new method, new product, new scentific diagnostic method are introduced in the practice of the field; to respect not only the original skin of the object but every kind of sign of the time (called "Patina")that we found on surface. Rob_cons  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.48.30.35 (talk) 22:45, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

'''** I have undone the edits that moved this article to art conservation-restoration and changed its definition. "Lmfsps," who doesn't have a user or talk page nor a record of previous edits, moved this article to a hyphenated article without much of a rational and without a discussion here.''' According to the edit summary, this "minor edit" was because " Conservation is not just about art, but also about utilitary objects. The conservation object is defined by its value, not necessarily an artistic one. Conservation-restoration is t)"

Not only is this an incomplete thought, it does not seem to take into account the above discussion and the more nuanced discussions below. As some may remember, this article used to be called "Art conservation and restoration," but was split because these are actually two different concepts. I don't think this is a strong enough rational to yet move the article again. Perhaps Lmfsps could provide a more detailed discussion and rational for this move. Or others could weigh in. ''' Changing the name and definition of this article is not a minor edit and needs discussion. '''

What I think needs to be done is more work on the article for Art restoration so that we can better understand how it relates to this topic; this information could also be worked into this text. Having them together as a hyphenated article just doesn't make sense to me. It's like saying that there should be an article for the "Silver-sugar maple tree," because they are so closely related. But they are simply different trees and have separate articles (their scientific classification are identical down to Family).

'''Second of all, I strongly disagree with the changing of the definition of art conservation from a "profession" to a "discipline." What is the rational for that?'''

I was interested to see the addition of Ruskin, Brandi, and le Duc.

--Richard McCoy (talk) 12:41, 10 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Maybe I was a bit fast to react to this ... Perhaps there is a good reason to revisit this thought. I hope my above comments didn't come off to strong.  Is there a bigger umbrella under which art conservation and restoration can fit?

Certainly someone has to have written about this issue. --Richard McCoy (talk) 17:18, 10 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Rushkin, Brandi, etc... brilliant additions, we need more like this... however, we really need to turn the history section into an encyclopedic section and not a list... see discussion elsewhere. Perhaps some of this would go in the history of restoration, rather than conservation... i.e., if we accept that conservation grew out of a much longer running profession of restoration, that still continues today (and that are now somewhat entwined).
 * I do not know the rationale for why it was changed, however, to add to the incomplete thought suggested above. The wikipedian is correct to say that Conservation is about more than "Art".... however then we get into the issue of how we define art? I also have had a problem with the phrase "Art Conservation" from the start... however it does appear to be the main phrase used in the US, and so was happy to let it slide for the greater good... however, I would eventually like the issue to be discussed within the page.
 * Conservation-Restoration IS a profession, and should be stated as such... this can easily be shown through links to ECCO and the PACR (professional accredited conservation-restorer). So there is no question there. It is of course also a discipline, but thats another story.
 * Restoration and Conservation??? I think that they should be separate pages, as they are both interesting in their own right, to link them onto one page undermines them both in terms of their warranting separate pages. many people have written about these issues, when I have time I will find references, etc.
 * They should be linked under an umbrella page, how to do that, is a different question?? --Daniel Cull (talk) 17:40, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Overhaul

 * Okay, I've started a major overhaul of this page. The first thing I did was seperate conservation and restoration into seperate articles.  The rest was just minor stuff.

Next, there needs to be a better description of the profession and then move beyond that.

I'd love to see a better picture of a conservation lab then the one currently used ...

RichardMcCoy 02:01, 2 June 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by RichardMcCoy (talk • contribs)


 * I've done a little more. My thought is that this article should be about the broad topic of conservation and include all specialities of conservation.  Individual articles could be made about the specialities at some point.  For sake of ease, I've used the AIC's speciality categories.


 * Check out a few other articles related to conservation: Preservation (as related to library science): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preservation_%28library_and_archival_science%29


 * Media preservation


 * 02:25, 2 June 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by RichardMcCoy (talk • contribs)


 * I added some more sub categories to specialization and then added a conservation materials section. RichardMcCoy 03:05, 3 June 2008 (UTC)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by RichardMcCoy (talk • contribs)


 * Dang .... nice work, Sam Bellamy! RichardMcCoy 03:13, 4 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks Richard. Sam Bellamy is Dan, by the way. I was thinking we really need to find a source for images. I love the CoL addition to the ethics section. Anyone know how to get rid of the 'too many external links' thing? I don't think its too many... it was in my first edit (I got a little carried away and put everything as external). It would be cool to have one of those BT/AT type images. I was also thinking we could have a section on "controversies" there is a good write up of one if you wiki 'Restoration of the Sistine Chapel frescoes'. --Sam Bellamy (talk) 15:43, 6 June 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Daniel Cull (talk • contribs)


 * Nice work, folks! I made some posts on some Facebook groups that are associated with conservation.  Who knows, maybe that will get more computer-minded folks involved.  I've removed the external links label that Sam/Dan commented on (find out here how to remove it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Wikipedia_external_links_cleanup ).


 * I'm glad to see another picure on the article, but we still need a good one for a lab ... but it's hard to say what would represent all of art conservation. Maybe we should just remove the current picture, because it's really not describing anything.  Yeah, I think I'm going to remove it.


 * I think we should look at CoOL to see what could be incorporated here.
 * http://palimpsest.stanford.edu/


 * Thanks, Walter for bringing the ethics business over here.
 * RichardMcCoy 03:38, 9 June 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by RichardMcCoy (talk • contribs)


 * Note, it's my thought that folks should use their real names when editing. But just a suggestion.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by RichardMcCoy (talk • contribs) 03:26, 9 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Okay, I cleaned up some text, and then added section that allowed me to talk about the Heritage Health Index for the US. I'm not sure if it's worthwhile to include, but I argue that it's a good model for other countries to look at, this taking an index of the 'health' of a country's heritage.


 * I'll try and add some text to the External links next.


 * RichardMcCoy 03:02, 10 June 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by RichardMcCoy (talk • contribs)


 * Richard McCoy, excellent idea about the Heritage Health Index, and the "Country by country look" there are definitely some interesting things I could include in the UK section, such as 'Renaissance in the regions'. I'll get on that asap.


 * Also, about the reformatting of the US courses... I think it works better that way, nice one! I think I should go through and reference the UK courses as you have done for the US.


 * One thing - footnote 6... it just says insert footnote here.. can you add in the footnote you preferred. It's for NYU.


 * --Sam Bellamy (talk) 14:12, 10 June 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Daniel Cull (talk • contribs)

Picture
I think it would be useful to have a different picture of a conservation lab that shows more of the equipment used (and perhaps a conservator in action!)...or at least a lab that is cited so it is clear what the picture is of. Photos of conserved works would also be great. CristaPack (talk) 02:58, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

We need more pic's that are more representative of the wider field of conservation. We have one archaeological one - whoever found that well done! But we need to find more... I think we need a good shot of someone working in a lab [looking through microscope is usually a good image] a good BT/AT type shot - I always love these on paintings (as its so obvious the work that was done)... Anyone want to add any images they don't have copyright issues with. Ron yours are already online... could you add some of yours - I don't remember the copyright you had? --Daniel Cull (talk) 14:29, 16 June 2008 (UTC)


 * OK, so I was thinking there seems to have been little response to the copyright free image, bar the one on the site already... well done whoever found that, I was wondering if we'd be able to convince anyone to share some images under this license, thoughts anyone? --Daniel Cull (talk) 07:14, 25 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I was just wondering is it an issue that gloves aren't being worn in the images shown? I know for those tasks gloves would rarely be worn, but, I was wondering if it gives the wrong message? Any thoughts? --Daniel Cull (talk) 08:57, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Countries
So I altered UK to look like the US Section. I think it works better. Will do the other countrues too asap. Also, I put in a ref for NYU... hope thats OK. --Sam Bellamy (talk) 17:43, 10 June 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Daniel Cull (talk • contribs)

Links
I am not sure who put the links I hid back...anyone?... but the sections looked weird, so I removed the US links under "external links" and put the link in resources... as it seemed wrong to be having a country by country breakdown, as we've been putting country specific links in the other sections... and I can't see the point in duplication? Thoughts?

As I said in a comment earlier I hid the links before as I'd never heard of them, and wanted to read through them and see where they best fitted... it seems to me the DOCAM clearly can go in resources... so thats cool.

However, the animation one seems to be a website for a private conservator(?) and they haven't commented on the discussion so I am not sure why it's there? The site itself includes some good BT/AT stuff and some articles, etc, but is not really relevant to conservation around the world. I haven't hidden it, so its easier to find, but, I am not sure if it should be in the external links, otherwise we would have to include every conservator in the English speaking world, which seems a little daft. We'd have millions of links.

My suggestion would be to have a "Conservation of Animation Art" link to a stub page on wiki, and to have this as a link off of there... I however cannot write it, as it's not my area of expertise.

By the way I have changed my handle from SB to my real name.

--Daniel Cull (talk) 20:30, 13 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I'd love to see a Wikipedia article on the Conservation of Animation Art. It could be linked to this one. RichardMcCoy 21:02, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Cleanup
This is an important topic, but right now this article seems to be being used as a bit of a dumping ground for a lot of information. I appreciate that some work is being done already, but more is needed. Some of the info here is good, some seems to be promoting different schools, and some seems to be just trivia which can be pulled. The core policy here is that Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. Another is Verifiability, in that anything in this article should be backed up by sources, preferably reliable secondary sources. I recommend that we: Thanks, Elonka 21:54, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Cull down the list of external links
 * Remove the long lists of schools with art programs, unless we want to make a separate List of art schools or something
 * Merge art restoration back into this article (why was it removed?)
 * Ensure that everything here is backed up with sources


 * Thanks for looking into this, Elonka.
 * Art restoration was removed because it is completely different from art conservation. Having them together would be similar to having an article about dogs and cats because they are both house pets.
 * Perhaps a separate article could be made about training for art conservation. The listing of th e schools is important as each has its own history and methodology which relates to the initial skill that a conservator gathers.
 * More sources do need to be added, and the external links need to be justified to fit the criteria.
 * A proper category needs to be understood for Art conservation because it often gets confused with 'conservation,' which generally means the conservation of nature. Whereas Art conservation deals primarily with art & architecture.
 * RichardMcCoy 00:59, 14 June 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by RichardMcCoy (talk • contribs)

I would say it is vitally important to keep the list of conservation schools... until I did the research to make that list, I had no idea there was more than one school in Canada (clearly neither did the people who'd originally made the list) also I did not realise there was so many schools in the UK (and I trained there) they all have there own approach, ideas, speciality and it is vital that people be able to see them all to get a grasp of the variety.... What I think we need to do is add more that the section in terms of description (with references) to discuss the idea of training in conservation... Then if it begins to look like its approaching a decent sized block of info, then we could split it into a new page. --Daniel Cull (talk) 17:21, 15 June 2008 (UTC)


 * After reviewing WP:NOT and WP:LISTS, I have to agree with Elonka and say that I think we should consider creating a separate list for art conservation schools, simply because it is beginning to dwarf the rest of the page. Between the areas of specialization and various schools, we are starting to have one giant list as opposed to an article about what art conservation is for the general public.  Daniel, I am in 100% agreement with you that people should see them all, with descriptions, to grasp the variety...which is why I think it should just become a separate article because it begins to focus more on the schools and training as opposed to the practice of art conservation.


 * Also, I agree art restoration should be kept as a separate article, but I no longer see it mentioned or linked to within this article. While the two are different fields, my understanding is that conservation grew out of and split off from restoration.  Perhaps a section pertaining to the history of the field would be useful to describe this and outline the differences?  I would be willing to start on this if no one has any objections.
 * --CristaPack (talk) 03:24, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Hi CristaPack, welcome to Wikipedia, and yes, please proceed. :) --Elonka 03:42, 16 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Weird! Restoration should be in there linked.... although its a little more complicated than the story you suggest. Whilst conservation grew out of the 'restoration discipline', restoration is also a school of thought and philosophy that would "restore" an object to some presumed "authentic" state.... one of the ideas that grew within the conservation field (as it now is) was the re/questioning of the nature of "authenticity" and whether or not there was, or could ever be, an authentic past... and this provides a theoretical discourse between conservation and restoration over and above the concepts of methodology.


 * However, a field about history was in my original suggested sections, so that'd be good... also within that we could reference the first conservation book.... and I would guess the author has a page (but it may be in German) I'll see what I can find when I have a bit more time.


 * I am all fine with a separate page on schools... Its just there are not that many of us editing this page, and I thought we should try our best to walk before we ran... we've hardly started filling out the details and putting in references yet. There's only so many pages we can work on at one... and I felt it we started a page as a list, we'd really need to put a lot more background on it before it was actually useful to the reader.... but, I'm cool with you doing that... so go ahead make it a list. You don't need anyones permission! :::--Daniel Cull (talk) 04:15, 16 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I recommend adding a section at List of art schools. --Elonka 17:01, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

But outside of a couple of schools the majority of conservation schools have NO relationship at all to art schools - or a limited relationship at most. It's a much wider field when we remember it deals with architecture, anthropology, monuments, landscapes, etc. It really will require a separate list. And if art schools has a list, there is really no reason that conservation cannot also - I think I will make a list, in the same way as for Professional organisations on a separate page.--Daniel Cull (talk) 18:15, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Art restoration
I think that Art restoration may be splittable eventually, but right now it's really orphaned, on its own page with no sources whatsoever. If some sources can be added to the article, good, otherwise it should probably be brought back here until it's "grown up" enough to have its own page. I'll start other sections on some of the other comments, to try and keep the threads coherent... --Elonka 01:04, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, I guess I see that as a totally separate task and bringing Art restoration back here is just going to make more trouble on Art conservation. Why bring restoration back into this article if for no other reason than the article for Art restoration isn't very good?
 * RichardMcCoy 01:35, 14 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm okay on keeping it as a separate article, if some sources can be added to it. Otherwise what it looks like is a "POV fork", which is against guidelines.  See WP:POVFORK. --Elonka 01:47, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm glad you're okay keeping Art restoration a separate article. These two topics are not the same subject. Again, there's no reason to bring something to this article just because it lacks links. Perhaps you could point to some work that could be done on that article to make it acceptable. RichardMcCoy 03:08, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Sources. The section was taken out of an article that did have sources, and plopped onto a page without any sources.  If some of the sources at Art conservation are applicable, they should be copied over to the new Art restoration article, but it shouldn't just be left there, shivering and sourceless.  :) --Elonka 03:46, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

I think Art Restoration needs a separate page... however I think we should also improve on that page whilst we are working on this one. At the least we should copy some of the relevant links/references over. However my interest is not so much making millions of wiki pages as working with all of you to make this page look good, and also be a useful tool for conservators, students, and the lay person... I think we are off to a good start, but there is of course lots more still to do! --Daniel Cull (talk) 17:05, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

New category
Right now this article is in Category:Conservation, but as was mentioned above, that's not really appropriate, since that applies more towards nature conservation. So would an "Art conservation" category be more appropriate? Or something more general to go into the "Art history" category? --Elonka 01:04, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

I think a new category of Art conservation is the right way to go. It's a constant frustration for art conservators to be confused with conservationists. I think the museology categorization is correct, but I'm not sure about art history ... -- Richard McCoy (talk) 17:24, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Yours hoping that no-one will split these. Although if they do I wont go around switching the back all the time. --Daniel Cull (talk) 18:29, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I disagree completely! The conservation of Heritage whether it is Art or Environment should be seen as part of the same thing.
 * "Heritage Conservation" one is Cultural Heritage the other Ecological or Environmental Heritage - this is especially true when we consider the conservation of Monuments, Sites and Places - as the local ecology can play a significant part in conservation decisions, as well as being a significant influence within stakeholder analysis, and with possible "dual conservation solutions" you just have to look at Stonehenge as a case study...and when looking at ethnographic conservation when wanting to consider holistic conservation solutions in the local community..
 * Having said that I'd be even more opposed to it going into Art History, I'd agree that Museology would be a closer fit.... but... We have to remember not all "Art conservation" takes place in a museum or a lab! Therefore if its going to be split it should have its own category.

Talkpage etiquette
I just did an overhaul of the talkpage to make it a bit easier to follow. For future comments:
 * Please add new messages below what you are replying to
 * Please sign with your actual account name, with four tildes: ~
 * Please ensure that your signature links to your userpage (let me know if you're having trouble with that)
 * Start new sections for new threads

Thanks, Elonka 01:08, 14 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Hey there Elonka,


 * Thanks for re-organising the talk section, makes it a lot easier... Job well done!


 * --Daniel Cull (talk) 17:02, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Also, may I recommend that you add your sig at the end of your last line?  Putting it two lines down is often a mark of a very new editor, who is "signing" a post like they are "signing" a letter.  But here on Wikipedia, the custom is to keep things more condensed, for ease of reading.  Thanks, Elonka 17:03, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Post at Editor Assistance
Ron Barbagallo has stated that he disagrees about what has been done to this article recently. I include his request for editorial assistance because it discusses my decision for removing Art restoration from this article and my decision to remove his personal web page from the Resources for Conservation Professionals section in the External Links. I think these are important points that should be considered as we move forward on this article so I quote them here in entirety:


 *  Below post copied from WP:EA


 * == Regarding: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_conservation ==

Hello:

I was wondering how I can go about contacting someone who has significant knowledge about Wikipedia and in particular in regard to this posting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_conservation

Very recently, a group of conservators who represent a limited part of the field have decided to alter this page to skew it to their particular point of view. They have removed, rather than reorganized the information, and even though Art Conservation is not a Not for Profit Business, they are biased against those who are in Private Practice. They've also removed the restoration page and greatly reduced its presense.

Is there someone I can talk to who is a Wikipedia editor? Someone with greater knowledge than I about what can be listed or not listed on a Wikipedia page.

My thanks in advance for you help.

Ron Barbagallo

RonBarba@aol.com

Director, AnimationArtConservation.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ron Barbagallo (talk • contribs)


 * I too think that this article could clearly benefit from a lot more assistance, editorial or otherwise; but as a side note I would like to state that the work I've done here and will do here only represents myself. I am not part of any group, small or otherwise.  A lot of people have worked on this article over the past 7 years.  It is my effort to ground my decisions on the policies of Wikipedia, the published literature (in book form or otherwise) around the topic of conservation, and of course, my understanding of what Art conservation is in a holistic sense.


 * I would also like to state that I do not believe I am biased in any way against conservators in private practice. Of course, there probably could be an article about conservators in private practice that would better state what CIPP is all about.


 * See below above for a discussion on the rational for removing Art restoration from Art conservation. Clearly that article needs work, too.   I know Elonka has had some good suggestions on how to clean that article up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by RichardMcCoy (talk • contribs) June 14, 2008

I understand that Ron B maybe upset that his link was removed... but I agree it is not relevant to THIS article... it is however RELEVANT and could be included in I would but, I would essentially be copying a lot of his work - and I'd rather he decided what was most significant.
 * An article on Conservators in Private Practice [there really should be an article on that... seeing as I believe they are probably higher in number than conservators in museum (at a guess)]
 * An article on the conservation of animation art - RonB is clearly an expert in that... and it would be great if he had the time to start an article on that.

If we all made articles on our respective areas of expertise (as I intend to do asap) then the Art Conservation page would be basically a first point of call.... it would be great for wikipedia to be actually like an encyclopedia of all the conservation fields... I think that would be an exciting project! --Daniel Cull (talk) 17:13, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Conflict of Interest
I think we need to have a discussion about the potential for a Conflict of Interest in this article. The only conflict that has arisen so far has been Ron Barbagallo's suggestion that myself or some "group" is purposefully trying to exclude his viewpoint. There has been some activity recently on this article by a number of different people, but it seems this activity is mostly aimed at improving the article in general.

Anyone have any suggestions as to how we can get through this COI?

Thanks -- Richard McCoy (talk) 17:41, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
 * My concerns are that all three of the primary editors, are working in the field. One of which, Ron Barbagallo, has raised the concern that there is a professional dispute between the "Conservation" and "Restoration" crowd, which is why the Art restoration article was moved off to a separate unsourced page.  I am also concerned by the excessive amount of detail in this Art conservation article.  It's not encyclopedic, and is not targeted towards a general audience.  If there were multiple editors working on this article, we might ban the professionals from editing the page, and then let other non-professionals work on it, while listening to comments from the professionals.  Since professionals are the only key editors though, that would be unreasonable (in my opinion) to ban them from editing.  So the best way to deal with things for now is to tag the article as potentially COI, and let folks work on it.  Once both articles are further expanded, and have arrived at a more neutral and cleaned-up state, we can look into removing the tag. --Elonka 17:20, 15 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't really see any primary editors on this article, and am not aware of any editing that Ron Barbagallo has done besides adding his company's web page and maybe a few other links in this article (on a side note, though I did not appreciate the accusatory tone in which Ron Barbagallo to against me in asking for editorial assistance, I think that having an editor look at this article has been very helpful). Heck, it would probably good to have multiple editors look at it.


 * True, it appears that Daniel Cull and I have been principals trying to work on this article for the past couple of weeks, but a few others have chipped in. I have been advertising within the field to try and get other folks interested in improving it.  Elonka, if you have ways to bring other knowledgeable editors to this article, by all means do it!  It would be a dream if there were a whole band of editors working on this page and all the conservators had to do would be hang around and be banned while making comments.  I suspect that this will not happen anytime soon, though.


 * I agree with Daniel's comments below in that as the article stands now it is only but a draft of what it can be. I'm not sure why it is concerning that the article has detail in it (but perhaps this is because conservators tend to the detailed -- it's what we do).


 * I've laid out my thoughts on why Art restoration should not be included in the title of this article, as it was before (see section above). Of course, I think it could be useful to include a description of what it is within this article, but it is a separate topic and need not be in the title as it was before.

-- Richard McCoy (talk) 12:07, 16 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Seems fair enough.... but please remember this is VERY early days in terms of editing... and remember that the article has gone from one with little or no useful information, to one which has already taught be something about the field (and I have two Masters Degrees in the subject!)


 * I also do not understand the comment "excessive detail" and "not encyclopedic"... :lol: first isn't excessive detail something wiki does well!!! And on a more serious note... its only just started... I would hope that by the time we (and everyone who joins us in this venture) finish we'll have made this the best encylcopdia entry on Art Conservation at least on the web, if not anywhere. And one that has sensibly laid out fields so that it can continue to grow and develop... in a way it simply couldn't have even a week ago. AND one that links to a whole series of articles on the various ideas/sub disciplines/philosophies/methodological disputes/etc, etc... that would then provide an encyclopdic knowledge of the field(s). --Daniel Cull (talk) 04:31, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Conservation Laboratory
So I've added a bit that was meant to start out as part of a history section, then as perhaps a bit on conservation science...and now I've just named it "The Conservation Laboratory" because it was just a little bit of both. Maybe the history part should be split apart from the lab instruments bit that I started? --CristaPack (talk) 04:33, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I think we can add to it until such a time as the history section can be split. Does anyone know the first Conservation book - written by a German Chemist, if memory serves me. I will check if not... as I think that should go in any history section. --Daniel Cull (talk) 18:29, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Conservation History

 * I think we need to delete the section added by RARushfield, not permanently, but just until it can be edited so that it meets wikipedia standards (especially concerned about 'original material'). Much of the information is too much for this page, and would fit better in other pages (some of it is duplicated in other pages already) it is also not referenced, and not linked to other sections of wikipedia. I would suggest we remove it, then use some of the information, and edit it to wikipedia standards. Thoughts?
 * Also, it is only relevant to the US... it doesn't consider any other english language countries such as: Canada, South Africa, Australia, New Zealand, UK...etc. Which is a problem for an overview page. We need to be careful of being too USA centric. --Daniel Cull (talk) 16:02, 6 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the off talk email from RARushfield... I can confirm that the history section, referred to above, and referenced on the page as by Joyce HIll Stoner. Has been published as "Changing Approaches in Art Conservation: 1925 to the present". The publication exists in two editions. The earlier one is " Scientific Examination of Art: Modern Techniques on Conservation and Analysis" and was published by the National Academy of Sciences in 2003. The later edition of the publication is "Arthur M. Sackler Colloquia: Scientific Examination of Art: Modern Techniques in Conservation and Analysis". It was published by the National Academies Press in 2005.
 * This of course means that it is "original research" and not acceptable under the rules of wikipedia No original research. It needs to be removed, however, some of the information within it can be used and referenced. And there is actually lots of information that could be useful on other wikipedia pages. We should get to editing it, it may take some time! But its a useful paper. --Daniel Cull (talk) 03:33, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
 * There's a lot of info on the AIC and FAIC in the Joyce paper and the current wikipedia page for AIC is a bit weak. American Institute for Conservation we could definately add a lot of it into that page. --Daniel Cull (talk) 04:00, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

OK... I am going to make the major changes indicated previously, today! I will remove the various "famous names" and publish it instead as a brief history to be developed. This should be the beginnings of something more encyclopedic and less like a list. --Daniel Cull (talk) 18:35, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Key Players
I re-odered the section so we can more easily find this information. Some key players we should consider. --Daniel Cull (talk) 16:34, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Gettens and Stout
How could I have forgotten them! The article (added by RARushfield) that I have since removed from the page by Joyce Hill Stoner has the makings of the beginnings of a bio for them. Gettens is also referenced on Freer Gallery of Art I was thinking that a page could be made about their book... as it is that which is truly significant, and then bios could be included on that page. We could do one of those false link things internal across wikipedia where their names on this age link not to their names, as it wold appear, but to the book page. I was thinking of just starting a short bio on the main page, until we have more info about them. I actually think we should do that for all the people we are listing, as we go... It may encourage people to take on writing their bios. As it will be obvious they are missing, especially if we include them linked. --Daniel Cull (talk) 03:56, 7 August 2008 (UTC) So I started a bio on the main page... we can add bio stub, etc, as we go. I just wanted to start to use that history article. --Daniel Cull (talk) 15:54, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

The Kecks
I propose that this article include some information about Sheldon and Caroline Keck, who are generally recognized as two of the most important conservators of the 20th century.

For example, see the recent obituary about Caroline Keck in the New York Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/15/arts/15keck.html?ex=1358312400&en=4c55195b9ef74432&ei=5124&partner=permalink&exprod=permalink

--Richard McCoy (talk) 03:08, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Here's a link from WAAC about Sheldon Keck: http://palimpsest.stanford.edu/waac/wn/wn15/wn15-3/wn15-302.html

Here's his obit in the NYT: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F0CE2D9173AF934A25755C0A965958260&sec=&spon=

Here's a link from the New York Review of Books that includes a response from Ms. Keck: http://www.nybooks.com/articles/6093

Also, there's a well-known award that carries their names: http://aic.stanford.edu/faic/awards/08_final_keck_award_guideline_and_form.pdf

-- Richard McCoy (talk) 03:22, 23 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't think they are as famous outside of the US, they are certainly not people you learn about in conservation school in the UK (at least not in the archaeological or ethnographic fields)...I GUESS you would in art conservation courses. Remember UK courses are specialism based. I found out about their work on my own through an article about eduction that Sheldon wrote, and had no idea they were famous until I went to an AIC meeting several years later! But yes, I agree that there could be some merit to having information about them.
 * Lt. Sheldon Keck gets a mention on this page Monuments, Fine Arts, and Archives program as one of the key members. --Daniel Cull (talk) 21:11, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, yes, I agree. This would have to be in the USA section, not global. Or perhaps even in conservation training in the US, or both. But it did get me thinking that it would be interesting to identify folks around the world that have played significant roles in advancing the field of conservation and conservation training ... -- Richard McCoy (talk) 01:27, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

I started a section (see below) I propose you write something about the keck's and include it in that section. I will also write something about Plenderleith. We can add as we go. --Daniel Cull (talk) 19:56, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Friedrich Rathgen
I think we need to include some information on Friedrich Rathgen, he was the first appointed chemist to a museum position, and wrote the first book of conservation treatments. Which was translated into English years before Plenderleith wrote his... and was quite clearly a major influence on the development of conservation, most specifically archaeological conservation. Although I think Plenderleith could also warrant a mention, as many people still think his book was the first.

I am thinking we could put this in a new section I will start called "The History of Conservation" or something like that. We could also move some of the info from the laboratory section into a history section, where I think it would work better, as there was some info on fixers that (although now removed) I think could be useful in this section.

- Mark Gilberg. (1987) Friedrich Rathgen: The Father of Modern Archaeological Conservation. Journal of the American Institute for Conservation, Vol. 26, No. 2 (Autumn, 1987), pp. 105-120 http://cool.conservation-us.org/coolaic/jaic/articles/jaic26-02-004_2.html - Elizabeth Pye. 2001. Caring for the Past: Issues in Conservation for Archaeology and Museums. James and James. London. --Daniel Cull (talk) 14:42, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Ok.. So I made a bio page for Rathgen, and linked that across. Hope this works for everyone. I think this would be a good way of adding these extra people without making the page too confusing. --Daniel Cull (talk) 20:15, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Garry Thomson
I think we need to include the work of Garry Thomson, to do with setting "parameters" for light, UV, Humidity, Temperature. As despite conservators for the most part having now moved beyond these parameters they remain the guideline used as a comparison, as well as his book "The Museum Environment" being hugely significant and really helping to push the whole emphasis towards preventive conservation. However, does anyone have some good biographical information, as I only know a little bit. --Daniel Cull (talk) 16:34, 30 June 2008 (UTC) more... http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_20070625/ai_n19322591 one more.. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/1553331/Garry-Thomson.html another.. http://www.iccrom.org/eng/news_en/2007_en/various_en/06_06obitThomson_en.shtml OK... I feel pretty confident now that I can write a short intro on this page, and start a biography page for Garry Thomson. --Daniel Cull (talk) 20:31, 4 August 2008 (UTC) Also an interview http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/news/lastword_08june2007.shtml need to check if it's a permanent link or not. --Daniel Cull (talk) 20:36, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
 * a useful link http://www.independent.co.uk/news/obituaries/garry-thomson-454552.html --Daniel Cull (talk) 20:24, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
 * So I started a page for Garry Thomson I think its an OK start. --Daniel Cull (talk) 03:59, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Plenderleith
I think it would be worth writing about Harold Plenderleith, I could do it. I like this section but a separate entry for conservation history might be warranted because this might get really long. Or a separate entry for the key figures and just a link here. Rose Daly (talk) 22:44, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree we should do an entry sentence about "key player" then a list of names with a one line intro, and then link to a separate page and have their bio on that page.--Daniel Cull (talk) 19:39, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Here's a useful link: http://www.sal.org.uk/obituaries/Obituary%20archive/harold-plenderleith/view?searchterm=hoo --Daniel Cull (talk) 20:21, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Andrew Oddy
I was thinking we could include something on Andrew Oddy and the importance of Oddy testing... but, I wasn't sure if it should be a biographical entry, or something on techniques. Any ideas anyone? --Daniel Cull (talk) 19:39, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Key dates
Wow.. Thats some list of dates.... I edited it for some minor formatting issues. I was wondering though if it might deserve a page of it's own. Problem is references for all the details. Has this list been published anywhere? I know its compiled for the Winterthur course, but, would be really good if its been published, as then could easily give it a seperate wikipedia page. 'Key dates in conservation' type thing. Thoughts anyone? --Daniel Cull (talk) 02:46, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I've looked around and there are other examples of lists, unreferenced, like this. List of dates in the history of Sunderland for example. I think this would work well as such a list. It would take a bit of time.... as we should also do lots of cross linking from the page of all the names, that are available, and link it to the art conservation page, etc. --Daniel Cull (talk) 02:54, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Hope no-one minds but I made that page, as it looked kind of messy having a huge list in the middle of the page. It is an introduction front page after all! I also, altered the order of the history section, so the link to the list page comes first. It seemed to make more sense. We should find a couple of references too,for that new page, just to help it out. --Daniel Cull (talk) 03:10, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Conservation Ethics
I appreciate the varied discussion on conservation ethics. The articles posted seem pretty minimal.

Further fuel for the debate can be found in Ethics and the Visual Arts, "The Moral Case for Restoring Artworks" by James Janowski. This essay gives insights into the Purist and Integral Restoration viewpoints.

It is interesting that extremists of the purist view believe that no new materials should be added and that it is better to let the piece decay rather than repair in any way. "Integral Restoration seeks to return the work to its pre-damaged condition...even though at least some of the material used to do so is not material from the original work." James Janowski Goldfish3 (talk) 00:18, 15 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree whats there at the moment is pretty minimal. I was wondering though to what extent we could go into issues of ethical disagreement, and still retain the wikipedia page as a general introduction of positions agreed throughout conservation? We could add in texts, such as the one you mention, although we would have to be careful not to go on one side of the fence or the other, or else the whole thing could degenerate into a add/removal match of ideas. It would be good to have more details though, so I say go for it. Add them in.
 * It is however worth noting that in the real world conservators are neither of the two extremes described above, and most conservators would at one time or another follow both or neither.
 * Another issue within ethics that the two positions do not get into is the ethical issue of "authenticity", which in my opinion, is for most practicing conservators the real crux of the applied ethics debate.
 * ALSO...it would be good to add these ideas into the Art restoration page --Daniel Cull (talk) 19:33, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

article naming
There is a confusing mess of redirects here. It is particularly weird that the primary article name is Conservation-restoration but that the primary talk page is Talk:Art conservation. Richard McCoy raised the point last September that the article was moved to a hyphenated page name without any discussion or background.

I do not feel qualified to comment on whether conservation and restoration belong in the same article, but as long as they currently are, I propose that the canonical title for this article and its talk page should be Art conservation and restoration and Talk:Art conservation and restoration, and all redirects should be pointed there.

Please comment. If I have not heard objections by Monday, April 27, I will begin making those changes (enlisting an admin's help if necessary to untangle the mess). Tim Pierce (talk) 09:57, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Tim: Thanks for taking the time to look into this. I agree about the confusion, but I hesitate to endorse your change. That there is confusion on the definition of the field is no small matter. I wish there was a broader discussion about the naming. There is a big difference between conservation and restoration, but it also makes a certain kind of sense to put them together.

I prefer for them to be undefined rather than being poorly defined. Richard McCoy (talk) 01:37, 25 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Richard - I'm happy to take part in a deeper discussion about the appropriate primary name for this article, and I'm not at all wedded to it being Art conservation and restoration. I do, however, feel strongly that the primary talk page and primary article page should share the same name.  If the official name for this article is to be Conservation-restoration then the discussion should live at Talk:Conservation-restoration.  If the primary discussion page lives at Talk:Art conservation then it should accompany an article named Art conservation which is not a redirect to something else. Tim Pierce (talk) 02:00, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

You're solution seems to be straightforward and good. Next, we should start cleaning up all the articles that are linked here, and the way art restoration is listed as a separate article ... Thanks.Richard McCoy (talk) 02:12, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Richard, can you say a little about how you think the article should ideally be titled and organized? You clearly have much more background on this subject than I do. Tim Pierce (talk) 03:14, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

February 1, 2010, I added the new correct the url for the link to my site's conservation pages. Site has been upgraded. Thanks. If for any reason anyone needs to contact me, please do at ronbarba@aol.com. Thanks, Ron Barbagallo —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ron Barbagallo (talk • contribs) 01:16, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

The Wikipedia Lists of 100 Project
On Tuesday I participated in a Museums and the Web workshop with members of the Wikimedia Foundation and 50 or so global leaders in the museum web community. Here’s a link to the Workshop.

An idea that surfaced from this workshop is the creation of 3 keys lists within Wikipedia about from what and how art is made, and the materials used to conserve-restore it. Here are the 3 lists:

1) List_of_100_art_materials_every_encyclopedia_should_have

2) List_of_100_art_techniques_every_English_encyclopedia_should_have

3) List_of_100_conservation-restoration_materials_every_encyclopedia_should_have

These lists would not only be used to identify the most important 100 topics, they would be used to determine what Wikipedia articles currently exist about them and therefore identify work that needs to be done within Wikipedia to create or improve them. Ideally, there should be a high-quality articles in Wikipedia about each topic.

Clearly these lists could soon grow way beyond 100 items, but we have to start somewhere. I see this as a kind of first step for the community to begin thinking about ways in which we can add good information to Wikipedia that is useful to the cultural sector.

I think the easiest way to get the entries for this list would be to scan some sets of museum collection databases, or somehow assess Art & Architecture Thesaurus Online (AAT) and the Conservation & Art Material Encyclopedia Online (CAMEO) to determine the entries quasi empirically, or at least in a mildly systematic way (anybody have any hot tips on how to do that, or perhaps a big magic wand?). I can't figure out how to make that happen, so it seems it will have to be done by hand.

Also, along the way there will need to be something like consensus as to what is included in these lists (and what’s not).

Thanks, --Richard McCoy (talk) 14:25, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Athens Charter
I have recently split the Athens Charter article into two. The previous article was confusing in that it lumped two completely different topics together. I see that there is reference in the table to the 1933 CIAM Athens Charter, but this was a document written by Modernist architects as a manifesto for urban planning. As such it may not be an appropriate topic for this site! Kenchikuben (talk) 09:26, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

Move "cultural heritage charters" to "cultural heritage" page?
Might the section that covers international cultural property charters be more appropriate to the page "Cultural Heritage", as that page covers the broad ideas of conservation/preservation, as opposed to the physical-materials science intensive conservation-restoration article? If there is no objection, I will move it there. Morgan Riley (talk) 18:58, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: page moved. Not only is there a clear majority, but the minority doesn't make a strong enough argument. "and" makes the article title clearer. UtherSRG (talk) 20:42, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

Conservation-restoration → Conservation and restoration – Per this CfD discussion, it became clear in closing it that while conservator-restorer is a legitimate term for a person in this field, "conservation-restoration" is far less common, and is jargony at best. Accordingly, I suggest a change in this name to the more approachable "conservation and restoration."--Mike Selinker (talk) 16:35, 18 March 2012 (UTC)


 * I don't understand what "approachable" means as you use it. The hyphenated form I think is perfectly understandable. It does not in my opinion suffer from unapproachability. Bus stop (talk) 20:06, 18 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep:Totally agree with Bus stop. This is part of a bigger project of Mike Selinker to "fix everything" by making a huge mess of things.  Please see his unilateral and absurd moves on the categorization of related articles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2012_March_6#Category:Conservation-restoration).  I have asked for help on his work on my talk page, but I'm not getting very far.  --RichardMcCoy (talk) 20:24, 18 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Rename. I see that both are used. I do find the proposed name a bit less jargon-y, as the nominator has suggested, and in that sense the proposed name is more "approachable", or you might say accessible, to general readers. I generally would support a rename. (I have been wary to comment here because I do not want to get sucked in to an extended discussion about my motives, background, level of knowledge, and history of WP edits—all of were raised at the related CFD by a certain editor who has already commented above. Thus, this will be my only comment in this discussion.) Good Ol’factory (talk) 22:05, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
 * "GoodOlfactory" no one has ever asked you to do anything other than substantiate your opinion with something else than your personal opinion and what you turn up with Google. The hyphen does not indicate extra jargon, but a kind of connectivity of the two words.  Check it out, will ya?  It's all probably moot as it this discussion will likely be run by thugs in the same way the one went for the category related to this article went.  --RichardMcCoy (talk) 22:26, 18 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Rename I see no evidence for the present title, besides the bare assertion. If it's reused, it's jargon, not common english in any country. "A kind of connectivity" is expressed better with the word "and" than with a hyphen; a hyphen implies a specific standard name, not mere connectivity.  DGG ( talk ) 01:54, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
 * What a disappointing joke. More personal opinion. In the event anyone wants to actually do some research about this profession and therefore the name of the article, read this: http://www.icom-cc.org/47/about-icom-cc/definition-of-profession/. Or is this article going to be another hijacked by a few "expert" editors personal, uninformed opinions? --RichardMcCoy (talk) 01:58, 19 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep: The hyphenated form is preferable due to how closely related these terms are in this usage. There are two terms used only because there is not one term to replace them both. There is generally a balance between conservation and restoration. Conservation is I think always decided upon but restoration definitely is not. It is often decided to simply halt further deterioration but not intervene any further such as would be called restoration. The article is not about "Conservation and restoration". The decision to "restore" is sometimes taken. But oftentimes the decision to "restore" is never taken. It is only tentative and often not undertaken. Bus stop (talk) 05:07, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Rename -- Conservation and restoration are simmilar but not identical. The hyphenated form is a Neologism.  Peterkingiron (talk) 09:41, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Rename The two terms are sufficiently distinct from each other to make hyphenation improper. It's just poor English. Pol430  talk to me 10:06, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Weather or not it's a "Neologism" or "poor English" it's still correct. Has anyone bothered to read the link I put in here?  The term has been accepted by the profession since 1978. http://www.icom-cc.org/47/about-icom-cc/definition-of-profession/. Is there a policy to which you're abiding that prefers you name an article different than what's accepted by the industry to which it refers?--RichardMcCoy (talk) 11:09, 19 March 2012 (UTC)


 * "Conservation-restoration" is commonly hyphenated. The hyphenation implies "either-or", except that I don't think it would ever be the case that restoration would be undertaken in the absence of conservation.


 * "PARCHMENT AND LEATHER – research, conservation- restoration, craft"
 * ''"European Graduate Generation in conservation-restoration (EGG)
 * "Science for the conservation-restoration of cultural heritage"


 * I did not say that the two terms were identical or insufficiently distinct, but rather that they are linked in a tentative way. Restoration is an option often not taken, whereas conservation is an option always exercised. It is often felt that restoration is inadvisable because the results of restoration may bear a misleading relationship to the original, thus providing misinformation for the viewer. Instead it is often decided to merely provide support for that which remains intact and to take take steps to prevent further deterioration of all parts of an object. Bus stop (talk) 15:15, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Ding, ding, ding. Winner! Bus stop is the first I've seen weigh in to any of this with actual research, rather than just personal opinion. Too bad you weren't around when the debate got out of hand with the now equally messy categorization undertaken by the other gang ...--RichardMcCoy (talk) 15:35, 19 March 2012 (UTC)


 * We also find "conservation and restoration" but not necessarily more frequently than the hyphenated version:


 * "Wax Moulages as Cultural Artefacts. Investigation, conservation and restoration"


 * We also find "Preservation and Restoration" which to me is very similar to "conservation and restoration" but again, not necessarily more frequently than the hyphenated version:


 * "International Centre for the Study of the Preservation and Restoration of Cultural Property"


 * I prefer hyphenation to the use of the word "and", the reason being that "restoration" is often a questionable path to take in the field of caring for cultural artifacts. Bus stop (talk) 15:46, 19 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Rename - hyphenating a pair of words like this is just shorthand, not proper English usage. It needs a dab modifier though, so as not to confuse it with the same terms in biology. Guettarda (talk) 17:35, 19 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Relist The vote of rename here flies in the face of facts. Consensus-building effort have been ignored in favor of un-substantiated personal opinions.--RichardMcCoy (talk) 02:22, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Relist what/where? The point of this discussion here is to build consensus. Guettarda (talk) 02:35, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
 * This site for instance, uses the hyphenated form considerably. Clicking on the links at that site turns up more examples. I do note that sometimes "conservation" is considered separately from "conservation-restoration" as in: "The program complies with the European standards for education in conservation and conservation-restoration which agree that only a Master's degree in conservation-restoration, achieved by a period of full-time study of no less than 5 years at a university or at a recognised equivalent level, qualifies for the independent practice of the profession". Bus stop (talk) 18:34, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
 * But that site is also a mess of single or 2-sentence paragraphs and bullet points. In other words, it's not a good example of good usage. Guettarda (talk) 06:26, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * If you do an actual count of usage, the page also uses "conservation and restoration" (36 usages) more often than "conservation-restoration" (16 usages). Not that it's exactly a great source though, as pointed out by Guettarda. Good Ol’factory (talk) 08:53, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
 * So, what would be an example of "good usage"? And what would be considered an authoritative usage by you all? Or is the goal here to just find a term that the folks on this talk page like?--RichardMcCoy (talk) 11:37, 21 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Rename or better split. In any case, if this is primarily about art, then that should be in the name to differentiate it from house restoration.  Article titles should be clear about what the article is about.  It is in no way clear that the current name does that.  If there is no consensus here to split, then the proposed Rename is better since it provides an indication that this is about two related activities. A good reading of WP:OFFICIAL might also help. One point is clear in this discussion and that is one editor who does not understand WP:AGF and elects to ignore WP:OWN.  Not only here but in related discussions.  How much overlap exists here with historic preservation? Vegaswikian (talk) 04:32, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Since you state that you are unable to discern if this article is primarily about art or not, then it seems you've not really understood what the profession is, or really paid attention to the other discussions you've mentioned. It's been stated here and a lot of places that this article would include the conservation-restoration of cultural heritage (including houses). This idea of broad inclusion is primary to the article. Bus Stop has done a lot of work on this point; a good reading of his work might also help. Please explain how you would consider merging this article with historic preservation -- another interesting idea.--RichardMcCoy (talk) 13:54, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I am not sure if I fully understand all of the issues on the table. I entered the discussion simply understanding that we were debating hyphenation verses using the word "and". It has occurred to me, I think based on some comments by others, that there is a desire to name the article "Art conservation-restoration" (or "Art conservation and restoration"). I do not find such a lengthening of the title problematic. I am not sure that "art conservation-restoration" would very often cover "houses". I would think that only in rare instances it might. Bus stop (talk) 14:09, 25 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Support (Rename), per WP:NAMINGCRITERIA: naturalness. Also, as noted, article name should probably include art for precision, also re WP:NAMINGCRITERIA. I must note that I am concerned by the unnecessary injection of hostility and personalization, including ad hominem attacks, evident in the history of discussion.  It is a clear violation of WP:CIVIL and WP:PERSONAL. ENeville (talk) 18:54, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Clean up
I see that Good ol' Factory has started to move some of the associated pages that relate to this article. With this, is there a way that you can also go and fix all of the now misused terms that link back to this article. Is there an automated way to do this? Thanks, --RichardMcCoy (talk) 12:10, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Misused could be rather strong of a statement. Generally when a page is moved, editors don't go through and change all references to an article.  Redirects are cheap and leaving them causes no harm.  When the redirects are for natural terms that are in common use, there is generally no reason to change them. Vegaswikian (talk) 19:40, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I should have put "misused" in quotes. I would have thought that because you fought so hard for the changes alongside User:Mike Selinker and User:Good Olfactory, you would have taken responsibility for the various messes that now exist because of them. Only Good OlFactory has gone back and redressed some of the now confusing and messy details of your changes. Frankly it's disappointing, but not surprising, to see your flip attitute and unwillingness to clean up the mess you've started. So it goes. --RichardMcCoy (talk) 01:32, 28 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Please try and go easy on other editors. Everyone here is a volunteer and obviously we each have only a limited amount of time and energy. For each of us, how we prioritize the various work we do on Wikipedia is really our own business. Other users may also have different views on whether what exists is or is not a "mess" and how much further work is required, so we need to avoid projecting our own views on others and avoid assuming that they are thinking what you are thinking about any given topic. Good Ol’factory (talk) 20:27, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Also, I wonder how this decision affects the article that defines those that work in the profession, Conservator-restorer? --RichardMcCoy (talk) 12:21, 28 March 2012 (UTC)


 * I think that absent a new discussion, it would have no effect on that terminology. The nominator's nominating statement above includes the comment: "while conservator-restorer is a legitimate term for a person in this field, 'conservation-restoration' is far less common". Good Ol’factory (talk) 20:24, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

Why the name change to "Cultural conservation."?
I've never heard this term used before. What gives, and what's the rational? --RichardMcCoy (talk) 01:40, 17 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Hi RichardMcCoy. Thanks for talking. I see there has been discussion before about the name and scope of this article. From a broad perspective, the article has evolved away from simply "Art conservation" (a topic that is now notably absent in Wikipedia), to "Conservation-restoration" (a term not common in the literature, and arguably poor English). Let's take a fresh look. From a broad perspective the term "conservation" needs disambiguation from the most common use as applied to environment and natural resources. As far as I can determine the most common terms in the profession are "conservation" and "preservation" (distinguished mostly between British and American usage, but also by certain nuances and historical use like "textile preservation" and "art conservation", and always with a qualifier like "conservation of cultural heritage", "art conservation", "cultural heritage conservation", and often together with the term "restoration", sometimes "reconstruction", as is used in a recent textbook). The choice between "conservation", "preservation", "conservation and restoration", etc. and the need for a qualifier about "culture" or "cultural heritage" is clear in terms of the use of the term beyond just art. Adding the qualifier "cultural" for "Cultural conservation" keeps it simple; although better alternatives might be "Conservation (cultural)", "Conservation (cultural heritage)", "Conservation of cultural heritage", or "Cultural heritage conservation", or back to "Art conservation". What do you recommend? TheProfessor (talk) 14:55, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

The article name is now "Conservation (cultural heritage)", with "Art conservation" as an equivalent in the lead, and with redirects from "Art conservation" and "Conservation-restoration". TheProfessor (talk) 14:59, 18 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Conservation-restoration is pretty commonplace around artifacts, rather than flat art. Conservation alone (as it's never presented with the disambigautor) looks far too much like environmental conservation or broader socio-cultural conservation, rather than the type of technical work carried out by conservators, as described here. I'd move it back. Andy Dingley (talk) 15:20, 18 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your input. Let's see if we get more discussion. TheProfessor (talk) 23:42, 19 April 2014 (UTC)


 * You will also have to deal with all of the categories and related articles around this subject should you stay with this move. In my opinion, this article is a mess that others have identified before (outside of Wikipedia), but it's such a mess no one has really wanted to step up and fix it.  --RichardMcCoy (talk) 11:19, 21 April 2014 (UTC)


 * Yes, it may be simplest to move the article back to Conservation-restoration. My preference would be to settle on a name that establishes a foundation for Wikipedia's treatment, which needs to be done from a bigger picture of related articles. This is a bit of a tangle both in terms of terminology and scope.  In reading back through past discussion and perusing some of the literature (concerning art conservation, "conservation" with respect to cultural heritage, collection care, etc.), a good overall structure gets a bit messy, though I do see several options for what might provide be a good path forward.  First, I think Wikipedia needs a clean article about Art conservation (which as I understand is where this article started).  This could either be the more extensive article, given this is a big field, or a relatively small article that provides historical context and an overview.  Second, Wikipedia needs an article about "Conservation of cultural heritage" (some alternative names include "Conservation (cultural heritage)" or "Conservation-restoration", or "Conservation and restoration (cultural heritage)", etc.) that focuses on the technical field and serves as a kind of umbrella for untangling the various terminology and approaches, so as to provide a good framework with respect to accessing related Wikipedia articles.  TheProfessor (talk) 15:47, 21 April 2014 (UTC)


 * It is a mess in the professional field so it's not surprising that it's a mess here. There really needs to be a conversation about this in the conservation community ... but I doubt that it's much on their radar.

--RichardMcCoy (talk) 18:55, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

External links modified
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Anybody out there?
Looks like this talk page has been quiet for a couple years. This is my first time looking closely at this article, and I'm interested in helping out. There's a lot of work to be done, but the first huge red flag to me is the Conservators in private practice that provide resources section of the External Links. My view is that this needs to be deleted, pronto. Every single conservator in private practice can provide "resources." That's what they do. We can't list them all here, so we shouldn't list only a few. If a conservator in private practice has made highly notable contributions to the field, that should be in the body of the article and it should be cited. I'd delete this right away but I think one of the people on this list was an editor involved on the talk page at some point, right? (It doesn't appear that WP:ADV has been brought up, but it should be.) It seems like this was a pretty touchy subject, but that was 8 years ago, so I'm just checking in to see who's still kicking around in here. Full disclosure: I'm in grad school for conservation (but my motivation here is making Wikipedia better). Cheers, Michellecornelison (talk) 04:06, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

Okay, I'm back three years later and it looks like no one who watches this page had strong feelings about this, so I'm going to go ahead and delete the Conservators in private practice that provide resources section of the External Links because of WP:ADV and other issues mentioned in my comment above. Cheers, Michellecornelison (talk) 06:33, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

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Requested move 4 October 2021

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: No consensus as to what is the best title for the article, after 3 weeks. (t · c)  buidhe  21:28, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

Conservation and restoration of cultural property → Art conservation – The shortest and common name of the topic of this article. User:力 (power~enwiki, π,  ν ) 02:18, 4 October 2021 (UTC)
 * : what the proposed title loses in precision it more than gains back in recognizability, naturalness, and concision. This page is linked to via redirect as opposed to direct link by a ratio of 4:1 (link count). Firefangledfeathers (talk) 04:20, 4 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment by banned user removed. --  Tamzin  [ cetacean needed ] (she/they) 15:59, 16 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Oppose. Art conservation does not cover architecture, archives, books, manuscripts or historical artefacts, which the current title does. The two terms are not synonymous. The proposed title is only a subset of the current title. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:52, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Move to Art conservation and restoration, more precise that proposed title. Vpab15 (talk) 17:47, 17 October 2021 (UTC)
 * You haven't addressed my point above. That this article doesn't just cover art. -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:45, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Architecture has always been considered one of the arts. All examples in the article could be described as art. For example calligraphy, which would be involded in manuscript restoration, is also widely defined as an art. Vpab15 (talk) 14:49, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
 * "The arts", yes, but not "art". You simply do not refer to "art conservation and restoration" when referring to buildings, structures, books, archives, manuscripts or historical artefacts. I speak as a professional archivist and amateur architectural historian. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:51, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
 * In your experience, are those other arts referred to as "cultural property"? Firefangledfeathers (talk) 12:58, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
 * See cultural property definition. Micga (talk) 13:04, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
 * The linked article has precious little to say about Necrothesp's experience on the matter. I could similarly point you to the definition in Art. While we're chatting, I encourage you to add more to your !vote below so that the closer can consider your reasoning when evaluating consensus. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 13:07, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
 * There isn't really a very good term for the grouping of these things, but cultural property is as good as anything. It's certainly better than art. I'm open to considering another term if anyone has any suggestions. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:51, 20 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Agree with Necrothesp. Micga (talk) 12:57, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

Add information related to Sustainability in Conservation
I am proposing to add information regarding sustainability in conservation to the Conservation and restoration of cultural property page. I am a new editor to Wikipedia under the program IIC COP 26 (which will happen on 10 - 11 November 2021), and my proposal is the following:


 * In the end of Ethics, I would like to add one sentence regarding the joint declaration on environmental guidelines between IIC and ICOM-CC.
 * I would also add a new sub-topic in Practice entitled "Sustainability in Conservation" to present SiC and some of their resources, with particular foccus on their Tips & Tricks.

--Ana Tourais (talk) 21:21, 7 November 2021 (UTC)


 * I'm afraid Wikipedia is not a link directory, and Wikipedia articles should not be used to link to (or 'present') organizations or their materials. - MrOllie (talk) 21:23, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

I was thinking on something like this for Ethics: "Recent concerns related to sustainability in conservation have emerged leading, for example, to a joint declaration on environmental guidelines between IIC and ICOM-CC, published in 2014. [References: https://www.iiconservation.org/archives/about/policy-statements/environmental-guidelines, http://www.icom-cc.org/332/-icom-cc-documents/declaration-on-environmental-guidelines/#.YYhJ_WDP3IU, https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00393630.2016.1166018]"

Perhaps I can improve my proposal for Practice by adding information from SiC as well as articles which present other examples of sustainable practices in conservation. [References: https://www.sustainabilityinconservation.com/tipsandtricks, https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/19455224.2011.566013?needAccess=true, https://www.mdpi.com/2071-1050/13/7/3609/htm)

Is any of these suggestions acceptable? (Apologies for note referencing correctly here, I am still figuring out how to do it.) --Ana Tourais (talk) 22:15, 7 November 2021 (UTC)


 * I'm concerned that an organization (IIC) that has previously had problems with conflict of interest editing is organizing an edit-a-thon with the apparent goal of adding more mentions of themselves to Wikipedia. I'll be opening a discussion about this at our noticeboard on conflict of interest editing shortly. MrOllie (talk) 22:31, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

Suggested edit
Regarding this topic, I altered the text I proposed before, including a broader range of references. You can take a look at a more complete draft below. I am indeed a member of IIC, but this is a single initiative from which I will not have any return. I hope this makes it possible to publish. The goal is to bring the issue of sustainability to the page.

Proposal:


 * For Ethics:

""Keeping up with the international contemporary scenario, recent concerns with sustainability in conservation have emerged. The common understanding that “the care of an artifact should not come at the undue expense of the environment” is generally well accepted within the community and is already contemplated in guidelines of diverse institutions related to the field."


 * For Practice:

"-	Sustainable conservation practices

Understanding that conservation practices should not harm cultural heritage as well as the people and the environment have led conservators to consider, discuss and explore their methods and alternatives, through research projects working groups, initiatives by associations and/or organizations, among others. The discussion around sustainable conservation practices applies both to institutional work (like museums or research centres) as well as to business work (like private studios).

There is a broad range of sustainable conservation practices that promote a more sustainable running of the workplace, regardless its type. These include opting for green energy alternatives, reduce energy and water consumption, engage in a responsible approach to the acquisition and transportation of products, materials and objects, re-use and recycling materials whenever possible and conduct proper waste disposal, regulate levels of climate control not only according to collections but also according to the local seasonal climate, encourage personal to enact according to sustainable practices. Conservation treatments may also follow more sustainable practices by minimizing the use of products which production and use is dangerous for the environment and whenever possible replace them for green alternatives (which may include green solvents, emulsions, nanomaterials, etc.)"

--Ana Tourais (talk) 17:40, 10 November 2021 (UTC)


 * Just to note I've lent a hand by adding edit request and formatting the references. Richard Nevell (WMUK) (talk) 16:27, 11 November 2021 (UTC)