Talk:Constance, Duchess of Brittany

Abdicated??
What is your source for this? Constance never abdicated anything. And why do you say that she was kept from governing Brittany during her marriage with Geoffrey? She exercised great authority during that marriage, issuing numerous charters. Brittany and the Angevins (2000) by J.A. Everard disproves both of the statements in the article. Chuckw-nj (talk) 09:49, 2 April 2011 (UTC)


 * I agree with Chuckw-nj. In Everard and Jones' The Charters of Duchess Constance of Brittany and Her Family (1171-1201) we can see that Constance used her titles of « ducissa Britannie et comitissa Richemundie » (Duchess of Brittany and Countess of Richmond) even after 1196. For instance there's a charter made in 1201 that begins by:


 * « In nomine Patris et Filii et Spiritus Sancti, amen. Ego, Constancia, Conani comitis filia, ducissa Britannie, comitissa Richemondie... »


 * After 1196, she usually added in her charters sentences like « cum assenssu et bona voluntate Arturi filii mei » (Everard and Jones, p 133).


 * There are also charters made by Guy of Thouars during his wife's lifetime in which he uses the titles « Dux Britannie et comes Richemundie ». I think he was also considered Duke of Brittany and Earl of Richmond jure uxoris, as Geoffrey had been. He seems to have used the title « comes Birtannie » after Constance's death, when he acted as a regent for their daughter Alice.


 * I think Pierre Daru was right when he wrote in his Histoire de Bretagne (1826): After Constance married again in 1199, « Il y avait déja une duchesse régnante en Bretagne ; il y eut deux ducs. » ("There was already a reigning Duchess in Brittany; there were now two Dukes.") Aziliz Breizh (talk) 14:17, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Maud of Brittany, Constance's daughter
I think it would be preferable to remove the mention of Maud, since her existence is not attested. I have read on French Wikipedia that only Guy Alexis Lobineau wrote about her in his Histoire de Bretagne (History of Brittany):

“Geffroi avoit eu deux filles de Constance, Eleonor surnommée la Brette, & Matilde ; quelques auteurs ne lui en donnent qu’une.”

“Geoffrey had had two daughters with Constance: Eleanor, known as the Breton girl, & Maud; a few authors say he had only one.”

(Histoire de Bretagne, I, p. 171, CLIX).

See on Googlebooks

I have never seen any other mention of Mat(h)ilde/Maud/Matilda, daughter of Constance. Does anyone know something about her?

Aziliz Breizh (talk) 15:03, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

If that's the case the historical inaccuracy should be included.--The Emperor&#39;s New Spy (talk) 07:14, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

I have just found an interesting article that proves the existence of Maud/Matilda:

http://sharonkaypenman.com/blog/?p=102

The Charters of Duchess Constance of Brittany and her Family, 1171-1221 by Judith Everard, Michael Jones mentions her too. (See on Googlebooks).

So it seems that Matilda of Brittany died before May 1189.

I'm glad to know that this little princess will be remember now.

My apologies for making much ado about nothing...

Aziliz Breizh (talk) 10:38, 7 July 2013 (UTC)

Constance's third marriage
I wonder if the date of Constance's third marriage is really accurate.

I saw in Jones and Everard's The Charters of Duchess Constance of Brittany and her Family (1171-1221) that she must have married Guy of Thouars between August and October 1199, as "the first occasion on which the names of Constance and Guy are linked is at Angiers in October 1199. (...) cf. also the date of Gu2 [a grant for the monks of Buzay], which records that on 27 August 1201, Guy was still only in his second regnal year." (The Charters of Duchess Constance of Brittany and her Family (1171-1221), p 135).

The year 1199 is also mentioned as the time of their marriage on French Wikipedia and on Guy of Thouars's article.--Aziliz Breizh (talk) 13:30, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Dates
Are we sure that Constance was born on June 12, 1161? I read in French Wikipedia that her birth date was unknown and historians don't mention it. Am I wrong?

I also changed the time of Constance's abdication from 1194 to 1996. In my (French) dictionary, they say Arthur became Duke of Brittany in 1196. Maybe it isn't up-to-date but... Tell me if I made a mistake.Aziliz Breizh (talk) 15:12, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Abidcation
Just searching online I see one book saying her reign ended in 1196. If that is an academic mistake references and sources need to be used to counter that. If this article needs to rewritten/corrected, please do so on all related pages include the list of dukes, the template box below, the dates on all her co-rulers and family which may mention an abdication date of 1196, You also need to ask the question if Guy of Thouars should be counted as a suo jure Duke of Brittany now. And then there is also all the other language wiki which probably still uses the 1196 date. --The Emperor&#39;s New Spy (talk) 05:33, 28 June 2014 (UTC)


 * Hello New Spy and thanks for answering so quickly. I've seen on the page you mention two books (Women Leaders of Europe and the Western Hemisphere: A Biographical Reference and Women Rulers Throughout the Ages: An Illustrated Guide by Guida Myrl Jackson-Laufer) that state that Constance was Duchess from 1171 to her death in 1196, which is wrong, since we have evidence that she died in 1201. These books also state that Alix of Thouars (whom they call Alix of Anjou) reigned as Duchess from 1201 to 1221, and then was regent during her son's minority from 1221 to 1237, because her husband had died in 1221. It's ridiculous, since we know Alix died in October 1221 and that her husband acted as regent during their son's minority from this date to 1237.


 * Concerning Constance's reign, we know that she was imprisoned by her second husband in 1196 (with Richard I's complicity), and then released in 1198 or 1999. Then she had her marriage annulled and married Guy of Thouars. In Everard and Jones' The Charters of Duchess Constance of Brittany and Her Family (1171-1221), we can see that Constance is called Duchess of Brittany, Countess of Richmond, 1181-1201. The authors explain that although she was the heiress of Brittany since her father's abdication in 1166, she began to rule in her own right in 1181, when she married Geoffrey.


 * As for Guy of Thouars, he and his wife made several charters between 1199 and 1201, and used the titles dux Britannie et comes Richemundie (Guy) and ducissa Britannie et comitissa Richemundie (Constance). After 1196, Constance usually added in her charters sentences like « cum assenssu et bona voluntate Arturi filii mei » (Everard and Jones, p 133), which seems to prove that her son was her co-ruler, but not the only Duke of Brittany at this time. Everard and Jones also call Guy of Thouars iure uxoris Duke of Brittany and Earl of Richmond. I think he used the title comes Britannie (Count of Brittany) after his wife died and while he acted as regent during their daughter's minority. Aziliz Breizh (talk) 15:08, 30 June 2014 (UTC)
 * These articles probably should be rewritten base on these sources,--The Emperor&#39;s New Spy (talk) 19:51, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

Constance's brother
The article states that Constance was Conan IV's only surviving child. I don't want to make a critique (I thought so myself) but Judith Everard seems to be of a different mind. So I wonder if it would be possible to mention William clericus, who seems to be Constance's brother. He is mentioned by Everard in her book Brittany and the Angevins. Here's an excerpt:

"Conan and Margaret had been married for nearly six years, yet apparently had produced only one child. The chronicles unanimously recite that Constance was Conan's only daughter (`unica filia'). But Constance was not the heiress in 1166; her father was still alive, and contemporaries could not have been certain that Conan and Margaret would not produce a son in the future, assuming they were permitted to continue to cohabit. Margaret, at least, was capable of childbearing after 1166, since she gave birth to a son in her second marriage. In fact, there may have been sons of her marriage to Conan. A charter of Margaret's includes a prayer for the souls of Conan and of `our boys', possibly `our children' (puerorum nostrorum). (...) One can only assume that these did not survive infancy and were not alive in 1166, but who was William clericus'', described in two charters of c. 1200 as the brother of Duchess Constance? (...) Although the obvious conclusion is that he was an illegitimate son of Duke Conan, William would have been an appropriate name for a son of Margaret, celebrating her royal kin. Whether or not any legitimate son was born or survived after 1166, the effect of the agreement of 1166 was to disinherit him, although possibly Conan retained the barony of Tréguier for this purpose. In short, it suited Henry II's purposes that Conan IV should be succeeded by a sole heiress, and this was arranged without waiting for Conan's actual death.''"

The charters Everard mentions are not very explicit: they only mention William clericus and state that he is the Countess' (Constance) brother. Maybe we might mention him as one Constance's siblings, who was still alive at the time? Aziliz Breizh (talk) 17:49, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

Succession in the Duchy of Brittany
@Celia Homeford, regarding the succession laws in 12th-century Brittany, I checked Judith Everard's book on Brittany and the Angevins: she says that "Constance was not the heiress in 1166; her father was still alive, and contemporaries could not have been certain that Conan and Margaret would not produce a son in the future", which implies that Brittany followed male-preference primogeniture at the time. Aziliz Breizh (talk) 10:10, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Does it? Male-preference primogeniture means that an eldest daughter is heiress presumptive until or unless a son is born. Everard says Constance 'was not the heiress'. Celia Homeford (talk) 10:15, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I think Everard means that as long as her father was alive, married and could father a legitimate son, Constance could still be displaced from the status of heiress presumptive to that of 'spare' and so couldn't be considered as the undisputed heiress of Brittany, especially as it is now known that she had siblings who died young (although it isn't known when they died). Her brother William's exact birth date isn't known either but since he was named after William the Lion, not Malcolm IV, it can be assumed that he was born after the latter's death, so between early 1166 and late 1171 (if he was a posthumous child).--Aziliz Breizh (talk) 10:58, 8 March 2024 (UTC)