Talk:Constantine II of Greece/Archive 5

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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110718115414/http://www.constantinianorder.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=5&Itemid=12 to http://www.constantinianorder.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=5&Itemid=12
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External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20160406043130/http://badraie.com/images/constantineanmarie.JPG to http://badraie.com/images/constantineanmarie.JPG

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Curley
A great number of citations go back to Curley´s book. And they all refer to the same three pages (39 to 41) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Greece666 (talk • contribs) 08:26, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

Categories
Are all these categories necessary? Like “Greek autobiographers” or “21st century writers”? Seem unnecessary to me —Dimsar01 Talk ⌚→ 11:56, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
 * The article clearly states that he published his autobiography. Which means the category is necessary. Dimadick (talk) 14:41, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

Nominated for the main page
This page has been nominated to be linked on the main page under the section "In the News." Interested editors are invited to discuss the nomination which can be found here. -Ad Orientem (talk) 01:09, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 January 2023
Please add the category Category:Burials at Tatoi Palace Royal Cemetery. 2601:249:9301:D570:B097:27B1:ED9E:BA48 (talk) 03:47, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done. - Therealscorp1an (talk) 04:02, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 January 2023 (2)
In the "Death" section. change Margaret II to Margarethe II. 3rdRealmQ (talk) 11:06, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done: Thank you for pointing out that mistake. - Therealscorp1an (talk) 11:15, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 January 2023
Historical period published article for cross references and review of your published bio:

https://www.nytimes.com/1973/06/02/archives/monarchy-ended-as-greek-regime-sets-up-republic-king-is-assailed.html 2603:7000:4C3F:CCB3:E477:7DA0:DEA:EFF4 (talk) 16:00, 15 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Descendants of the former King of Greece have no rights to Greek royal titles as the Greek monarchy abolished. Styles for former Greek royal families may use "pretender" as the former king had no authority, power or property to grant legitimate titles.
 * See historic property laws below Prince of Wales link:
 * https://www.britannica.com/topic/prince-of-Wales 2603:7000:4C3F:CCB3:E477:7DA0:DEA:EFF4 (talk) 16:10, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Please review also: "Nikolaos himself, by the way, appears to be much less attached to the idea of royalty and titles, than his supporters in the media (both traditional and social). In a radio interview Jon Faine (who introduced him as ‘Prince Nikolaos’, opting to avoid the HRH nonsense) for ABC Melbourne, he was well-spoken, graceful, diplomatic, and witty. Asked “What is the modern purpose of a royal family in Greece?”, he responded: “The modern purpose of a royal family in Greece doesn’t exist. There isn’t a purpose per se. My existence in Greece is purely out of my love for my country. I’m extremely grateful to be able to be there. Very often I wake up in the morning and pinch myself.” He then went on offering praise for the country and the people, particularly for showing solidarity to the wave of refugees.
 * At the end of the interview, Jon Faine referred to him as “Prince of Greece and Denmark,” immediately stopping to ask: “How can you be a prince of two countries at the same time?”
 * “I’m not really,” Nikolaos answered, explaining that all descendants of King Christian IX of Denmark retained the title (despite his own mother Anne-Marie having renounced her succession rights to the Danish throne for herself and her descendants in order to marry Constantine). “You don’t often see it other than our tombstones,” he added, much to everyone’s amusement. And that’s how he settled the issue of the appropriate use of royal titles, once and for all." 2603:7000:4C3F:CCB3:E477:7DA0:DEA:EFF4 (talk) 16:14, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
 * The use of non existing titles today by relatives of the former Kings immediate family need better clarification in bios. According to Danish rights the use of Prince/Princess of Denmark and Greece are strictly "pretender" titles as those rights ended when the former King married and when Greece ceased to be a monarchy.  To prevent historical inaccuracies or public confusion proper use of titles must and should be used at all times. 2603:7000:4C3F:CCB3:E477:7DA0:DEA:EFF4 (talk) 16:23, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
 * https://neoskosmos.com/en/2018/06/08/dialogue/opinion/the-modern-purpose-of-a-royal-family-in-greece-doesnt-exist/ 2603:7000:4C3F:CCB3:E477:7DA0:DEA:EFF4 (talk) 16:25, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Link to article showing correct descriptive style to use when not needing to use "former Prince" or "Princess pretender" in articles.
 * https://www.townandcountrymag.com/society/politics/news/a3607/king-without-a-country/ 2603:7000:4C3F:CCB3:E477:7DA0:DEA:EFF4 (talk) 16:33, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. DrKay (talk) 16:28, 15 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Thank you, but I am not done with citations, sources and reason(s). Patients please. 2603:7000:4C3F:CCB3:E477:7DA0:DEA:EFF4 (talk) 16:36, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
 * "Constantine freely traveled in and out of Greece on a Danish passport, as Constantino de Grecia (Spanish for 'Constantine of Greece')"
 * Why would the King have Constantino de Grecia" on his Danish passport and makes no sense and needs revision:
 * "To keep Constantine and his family out of Greece, in the early 1980s the government sent an order to all consulates to deny any requests by members of the former royal family to have their passports renewed, effectively rendering them stateless persons. For a time they traveled on passports issued by the Spanish government, which listed the king's name as "Constantino de Grecia." Now he and his wife travel with Danish passports, which identify them as "H.M. King Constantine" and "H.M. Queen Anne-Marie." 2603:7000:4C3F:CCB3:E477:7DA0:DEA:EFF4 (talk) 17:38, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Careful when using "Crown Prince / Crown Princess as they are to be styled and noted as "pretender":
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pretender 2603:7000:4C3F:CCB3:E477:7DA0:DEA:EFF4 (talk) 16:40, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
 * https://www.townandcountrymag.com/society/politics/news/a3607/king-without-a-country/ 2603:7000:4C3F:CCB3:E477:7DA0:DEA:EFF4 (talk) 17:40, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
 * If you want to reactivate your request, you needed to change the "answered" parameter to "no." 2601:249:9301:D570:B097:27B1:ED9E:BA48 (talk) 23:44, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

Greek Royalty
The current page tells us that "When King Constantine's grandfather George II died, his father King Paul came to the throne" or words to that effect. However, King George II was the elder brother of King Paul, not his father. King Constantine I was the father of King George II, King Alexander and King Paul. If your encyclopaedia is to be a useful work of reference, you should really get this corrected. It looks like the work of an uneducated outsider. It is like stating that all US Presidents are the children of the preceeding President. It fundamentally misunderstands the nature of the institution, as if it does not really matter. But historical verity does matter when you are a resource for historians. You cannot just state an untruth as if it were a fact. George II was NOT Constantine II's grandfather, but his uncle. The Greek naming tradition whereby an eldest son takes the Christian name of his paternal grandfather gives us a bit of a clue here too. King Paul's father was King Constantine I, so his eldest son and heir was Constantine II, much as his own eldest son is Paul, and his eldest grandson Constantine. 213.205.192.251 (talk) 23:07, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Fixed. Thank you for pointing that out, but just remember, Wikipedia is not always perfect and there will always be mistakes that are there to be ammended. - Therealscorp1an (talk) 23:11, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

Before a mistake, accusing the errant of being an "uneducated outsider" and having such an unempathetic attitude is not welcome on Wikipedia. _-_Alsor (talk) 13:51, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

New image — VOTE
I've known of this article for nearly three years, and I always found it strange that there current 1987 portrait was being used when he reigned in the 60s. I always figured that there was no contemporary free equivalent, however, I've just found several in his categories. In the wake of his death, I think we should alter his photo. These are my two suggestions, however, you can look through his category on Wikimedia Commons and suggest any other ones if you want. Knightoftheswords281 (talk) 03:04, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

I have moved all three images above on display as options, so we can have a vote. - Therealscorp1an (talk) 03:53, 12 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Option 3: I have always thought that the potrait taken by Allan Warren in 1987 that I have included below this discussion is more appropriate. This is because it is a clearer image, it is a coloured image (making the subject more easily identifiable) and it is one of the most famous images of him, especially since it has been used in the article for years. - Therealscorp1an (talk) 03:53, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Undecided. I think it's more convenient to have as a pic in the infobox an image of him during his reign, but neither of the two that have been proposed I see them suitable (by the fact of having people around him and being less "portrait"). And there aren't many more of him. In any case, of the three proposals I prefer option 2. _-_Alsor (talk) 22:11, 14 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Option 3: A portrait from during his reign is preferable but not at the expense of quality. Option 3 isn't far off from his deposition and is clearly the best one. Krisgabwoosh (talk) 17:37, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Option 3 If the main image before were a candid pic, then a black and white pic would be best, however seeing how option 3 is an official portrait or at least looks like one, I'd go for this one. --2601:249:8E00:420:56E:4C22:CA52:5067 (talk) 21:53, 19 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Option 3 He is known for being King of Greece, but mainly for being the last king of Greece. Makes sense to have a picture of him after his reign. Besides, it's a high-quality photo, better than the other two. Tim O&#39;Doherty (talk) 16:32, 20 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I know I am writing this a little late, but I have gone ahead and changed the photo due to a 1:1:4 result. - Therealscorp1an (talk) 23:13, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

Titular King of the Hellenes
May we please not put into the succession boxes, the title bit of Titular King of the Hellenes. I've noticed it's been added twice & worst, with his son Paul being shown as his successor. GoodDay (talk) 21:16, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

Edit-war over infobox and lead
Hello. I have brought you here to ask that you explain your constant reverting of my changes, being that of the Regent of the Hellenes and the final section of the lead regarding his death. You have failed to explained multiple times in your various edit summaries and just simply give the reason that edits should be in English, which they all have been of course. - Therealscorp1an (talk) 10:25, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
 * No-one says "Regent of the Hellenes". This is a weird anachronism. 4 ghits: 3 from over one hundred years ago and one about Alexander the Great, compared to over 60,000 ghits for the usual term used by native speakers.
 * The final sentence was unidiomatic and badly written. DrKay (talk) 10:54, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I just assumed "Regent of the Hellenes" was the official given title, considering the monarchial title is "King of the Hellenes" (which by the way is still English), but it seems I was wrong, so thank you for pointing that out. However, this is not a reason to remove this point in the infobox entirely. You have also claimed that the final sentence was "unidiomatic and badly written". I am not sure what "badly written" is referring to, but I disagree with unidiomatic (i.e. unnatural to regular speakers). I am presuming this is regarding the word "prolonged", however I would say that this word is more formal writing, in an encyclopedic tone and less colloquial as compared to "following a few years of". The semi-colon used in the sentence is also preferably avoidable, and makes the sentence unnecessarily long. According to Grammarly, a semi-colon is most commonly used to "join two independent clauses", which it does do in this case. However, these two events that are being connected occurred almost ten years apart and are better off as separate sentences. For this, I will be changing the article back to its previous revision with of course the change from "of the Hellenes" to "of Greece". - Therealscorp1an (talk) 11:46, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Without a response from you or any counter-explanation to my statement above, I see you have added the " and " tags. I have explained the "unidiomatic" part and the word "prolonged" is simply more formal. The second tag leads to No original research, which states that "Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any source. Similarly, do not combine different parts of one source to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by the source." In this case, simply changing "due" to "following" will fix this. - Therealscorp1an (talk) 21:45, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
 * "Without any response": You do know that I haven't edited wikipedia since 20:41, 23 January 2023? DrKay (talk) 18:56, 24 January 2023 (UTC)
 * "You do know that I haven't edited wikipedia since 20:41, 23 January 2023?": You edited and restored your old revision after I sent my second response and you didn't even respond, so I sent a third response. Also, I am finding myself to be continuously explaining stuff to you, but getting ignored every time. It seems that you pick at different points and only respond to some. You have also left this message on my talk page, even though you have been involved in the edit war as much I have. Whenever I revert, I list my reasons in this discussion, but your latest edit summary just says that it was "better before"? What does this even mean? I will keep the current revision for now and be mature about the situation, but if you do not counterpoint everything that I have fairly explained above, I will change it back. This is becoming tedious for me now. - Therealscorp1an (talk) 21:13, 24 January 2023 (UTC)
 * You actually quote my responses above: "copy edit inline|reason=final clause is unidiomatic; see also WP:SUFFER" and "synthesis inline|reason=article body does not state that the stroke was caused by a prolonged illness". You have ignored them. Instead you have focussed on a straw man of the word "prolonged", which no-one has complained about and was never an issue. I am not required to respond to non-issues that do not concern me. If you continue to edit-war to your preferred new version without first gaining consensus, you are likely to be blocked. DrKay (talk) 21:24, 24 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Actually, I did respond to both of them. The copy editing was referring to the unidiomatic part of your argument, which I had already countered above. WP:SUFFER has nothing to do with this either. "Following prolonged illness" does not paint him as a victim or use fancy medical language (which WP:SUFFER aims to avoid). This is also a very neutral point of view, considering that almost every source on the internet refers to it as well. And if "prolonged" is not the issue you are referring too, what is? You actually haven't really specified. And if you are claiming that I didn't respond to the second tag about the illnesses causing the stroke, I also responded to that above too. So it seems that maybe you are not responding or reading. - Therealscorp1an (talk) 21:30, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

IMHO, the infobox should say King of Greece, to match the intro, both here & at the bios of George I, Constantine I, Alexander, George II & Paul. That would remove the rather odd appearance of 'King of the Hellenes' & 'Regent of Greece', in the same infobox. GoodDay (talk) 22:31, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Or possibly all the leads need changing since "Βασιλεὺς τῶν Ἑλλήνων" (King of the Hellenes) was their official title, similar to "King of the Belgians". - Therealscorp1an (talk) 22:59, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
 * It should be "King of Greece" in the lead. Per MOS:LEADSENTENCE, the first sentence should be written in plain English. We don't use official titles in the leads of British royalty. We use descriptive terms that encapsulate the office. I see no reason why we should not do the same here. DrKay (talk) 21:44, 24 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I see no reason why it can't remain "King of Greece" in the lead, but I think the infobox should stay as "King of the Hellenes" since that's their official title. - Therealscorp1an (talk) 21:47, 24 January 2023 (UTC)