Talk:Constitution of 3 May 1791 (painting)

Who's who - some clarification needed
The File:Konstytucja 3 Maja guide.jpg by User:Kpalion is helpful, but unreferenced. Same for File:Konstytucja 3 Maja.jpg which contains an interactive map added by User:Hiuppo. Both may contain errors, as well as being incomplete. Here are additions / different identifications made by other sources: --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; talk 21:45, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
 * deputy Aleksander Linowski of Kraków is the figure on the other side of Zakrzewski (no. 12), holding with him Małachowski (no. 11) (source: pl wiki - "Marszałka niosą posłowie: ziemi krakowskiej Aleksander Linowski i ziemi poznańskiej Ignacy Zakrzewski"). He is identified on Hiuppo's map.
 * Elżbieta Grabowska (1748-1810), king's mistress, is labelled as no. 3, however pl wiki states that he is being handed the laurel wreath by Dorothea von Medem (Dorothea Biron), and that Elżbieta Grabowska stands behind her (source: pl wiki - " Z wieńcem laurowym pod baldachimem Matejko namalował księżnę kurlandzką Dorotę Biron, tuż za nią stoi Elżbieta z Szydłowieckich Grabowska – przyjaciółka króla, matka jego dzieci."). They are identified as such on Hiuppo's map, which directly contradict's Kpalion's.
 * the women bowing down next to the king, in the yellow dress, facing away, is identified as Marianna Deker(tówna) (source: pl wiki - "Jan Dekert z córką Marianną (w żółtej sukni tyłem do widza)"), whereas suggests, unclearly ("Jest wśród nich Jan Dekert (w rzeczywistości już wtedy nieżyjący) z małżonką"), that it may be his wife (I would go with Marianna, as she is younger). This source (, poor snippet view means I cannot get page number) supports the daughter version ("Pokazał również Dekerta z córką całujących ręce monarchy, chociaż fakt ten miał miejsce przy innej okazji"). She is also identified as such on Hiuppo's map.
 * the two figures next to Suchorzewski (no. 15) are: to the left, his young son, and to the right, Stanisław Kublicki, deputy of Inflanty, and an active supporter of the Constitution (source: pl wiki - " za rękę z nożem łapie Stanisław Kublicki, poseł inflancki, jeden z najaktywniejszych działaczy stronnictwa proreformatorskiego w Sejmie") This source gives Kublicki's name as Jan ("Za uzbrojoną rękę chwycił go znany wtedy szlachcic - siłacz, poseł inflancki Jan Kublicki, który rzeczywiście szybko szaleńca obezwładnił"), but I am having trouble verifying Kublicki's name it either way, the quotes given in the pl:Jan Suchorzewski's article, for example, give no hits outside Wikipedia... but the incident itself happened, it can be verified in some printed publications, like the one I cite with regards to Dekert's daughter above. Kublicki, without the first name given, is identified on the picture in this work:  ("Osobistość widoczna obok Suchorzewskiogo to poseł inflancki Kublicki, który obrońcę wolnej elekcji, protestującego trybem znanym z wystąpienia Rejtana, podniósł z ziemi i wyprowadził z tłumu pchających się do tronu posłów"). Kublicki and the child are identified on Hiuppo's map.
 * likely near Czetweryński (10), other opponent of the constitution include Antoni Złotnicki (source: - "Marian Gorzkowski wymienia też inne postacie z otoczenia króla w obrazie: księcia Czetwertyńskiego, Złotnickiego i Matusiewicza"). Neither Kpalion nor Hiuppo's identify Złotnicki on their pictures. However, cited "Biuletyn historii sztuki", p. 260, confirms that and helps to identify them: "Przy królu w górnym szeregu Czetweryński, pod spodem Złotnicki, niżej w dole Branicki, a w dole Dworzak albo ksiadz Wofbauer. Przy Czweteryńskim w górze Turski, Piattoli i pod spodem Ignacy Potocki, pod nim Matusiewicz, a pod nim znowu Kołłątaj." Note that Dowrzak is a reference to Hofbauer. Assuming that Czweteryński is correctly identified as 10 (both Kpalion and Hiuffo), Ztotnicki is easily identified as the black-clad figure between him and the king (to his left) and Branicki (to his right). The other part is more problematic ("With Czweteryński above Turski, Piattoli and underneath Ignacy Potocki, under him Matusiewicz, and under him Kołłątaj again").
 * also, Matusiewicz - likely pl:Tadeusz Matuszewicz (PSB confirms alt spellings of his surname) - is mentioned by the same source as being present in the picture (source: - as cited above). Neither Kpalion nor Hiuppo's identify Matusiewicz on their pictures. Now, the above quote "Ignacy Potocki, pod nim Matusiewicz, a pod nim znowu Kołłątaj." confirms he is in the picture... but where? Hiuppo and Kpalion identify Potocki as 9, but this is contradicted by the quote (there is nobody between 9 and Kołłątaj, and by the interklasa source). Now, if Potocki was 10,  I could very liberally see how Matusiewicz could be 9 and underneath him.
 * this source identified two figures: Above and betweem Kołlątaj (8) and Branicki (7) there is the Scipione Piattoli (pic), and to his right, Wojciech Turski (pic). Now, I have doubts about that part of the description: to start with, I think that the pictures are switched. Turski reference is messed up, Wojciech Turski doesn't have an article but is notable; he was not a bishop but rather, a chamberlain (and he looks similar to the pic attributed to Piattoli here: ). Either way, the priest figure could be Piattoli, with Turski, I'd be more careful, but he does look similar to the portrait. (source: - "Na prawo w górę od Branickiego widzimy biskupa Wojciecha Turskiego, który wstępnie, jeszcze w sali zaprzysiągł króla na konstytucję, a tuż obok skromną sylwetkę księdza Scypiona Piattolego monarszego sekretarza, w którego mieszkaniu zamkowym redagowano tekst nowej ustawy.") Neither Kpalion nor Hiuppo's identify Turski or Piattoli on their pictures, but I did it below, although as Feliks Turski. I am not sure if Władysław Turski is in the painting at all...
 * there is further confusion there: Kpalion attributes figure 9 to Ignacy Potocki and figure 10 to Adam Kazimierz Czartoryski. But according to this source, 9 is Piattoli (I think, Turski...) and 10 is Potocki (pic). (source: - "Wróćmy jednak do zwalistej postaci Kołłątaja. Kroczy za nim skromny, lecz wytworny, jeden z twórców Konstytucji, Ignacy Potocki.") However, both Kpalion's and Hiuppo identify them both as 9 - Potocki and 10 - Czartoryski. Now, if we keep in mind the "Ignacy Potocki, pod nim Matusiewicz, a pod nim znowu Kołłątaj.", one possible solution is that 10 is Potocki, and 9 is Matusiewicz. But...
 * Here is another quote from Biuletyn: "Za królem, poprzedzani przez biskupów Turskiego i Gorzeńskiego (jeden z nich trzyma Biblię, na którą król złożył juz przysięgę) postępują jego najbliżsi w dziele Konstytucji współpracownicy: Kołłataj, Piattolo, Ignacy Potocki i Adam Czartoryski. Pierwszy z nich gwałtownycm gestem obraca się ku scenie rozgrywającej się w bezpośrednim pobliżu procesji." This adds a lot of material. First of all, we have bishop Turski again. This source confirms that there was bishop Turski from Kraków, who swore in the king earlier, which fits the eduseek story. A little bit more digging identifies him as pl:Feliks Turski. Gorzeński refers to Tymoteusz Gorzeński. Now, this allows us to go back and identify the bible-holding priest as either Feliks Turski or Tymoteusz Gorzeński. I am not sure which one of those, and I am not seeing a second priest there (other than Kołłątaj)...
 * Anyway, if we look at the quote "Ignacy Potocki, pod nim Matusiewicz, a pod nim znowu Kołłątaj." and "postępują jego najbliżsi w dziele Konstytucji współpracownicy: Kołłataj, Piattolo, Ignacy Potocki i Adam Czartoryski", the problem is we are dealing with 5 people. Kołłątaj is easily identified, and so is Turski/Gorzeński (priest with the bible). That still leaves the other from the group of Turski/Gorzeński, and for more, so five people altogether. Yet between Turski/Gorzeński and Kołłątaj there are only three people: unidentified black haired male in a hat, black haired male looking to the right, and the white haired male in yellow/golden cape. I guess there also the male in blue vest holding the banner, part of his face is visible too. Only if we assume that the other from the Turski/Gorzeński is the figure behind Kołłątaj (to his left), mostly obscured, and include the blue vested guy, this description can make sense. To order them, the only thing we know is that Matusiewicz is over Kołłątaj (not helpful, since they all are) and Potocki, over Matusiewicz. If 10 is Czartoryski, Matusiewicz should be 9, since there is nobody that is under him. Thus, above, in the hat, would be Potocki, which would make Piattolo hold the flag... but that doesn't fit the priest, aaargh.
 * both Kpalion and Hiuppo identify the following additional individuals that are not mentioned in my sources so far: Aleksander Linowski, Elżbieta Grabowska, Dorothea von Medem (Dorothea Biron), Jan Kliński, Światopełk Czetwertyński (confirmed by Biuletyn historii sztuki, p.260), Adam Czartoryski, (confirmed by the same source), Ignacy Zakrzewski, Tadeusz Kościuszko (confirmed as the figure with the bandaged head in , Kazimierz Konopka (confirmed as the person with the french tricolor decoration and czekan by Matejko: obrazy olejne : katalog ("Kazimierza Konopkę, z czekanem w ręku, przedstawionego jako jakobin z trójkolorową kokardą przy czapce")). and "a peasant".

Ummm... doesn't Hiuppo have #1 and #11 flipped? Or at least #11 is wrong - that's Ciolek. Volunteer Marek (talk) 01:23, 15 August 2011 (UTC)


 * To make up for my pretty embarrassing mistake right above, I will compound it by offering the original thesis that the "Old Jew" in the painting is Matejko's auto portrait. Citation needed. Volunteer Marek (talk) 01:34, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Haven't seen anything suggesting this, and one source had some discussion of Jew's significance, so I think rather not. But he might have put himself somewhere else; there are many faces that need further identification. I doubt he would be wasting faces on nobodies... With the exception of the few famous personae, I do wonder how have others been identified, anyway? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; talk 04:49, 15 August 2011 (UTC)


 * The only source I used was an exhibit label at the Royal Castle of Warsaw, where the painting is on display. I don't know how reliable it is, and it may be that some people are misidentified in my image or that more could be added. Piotrus has done a lot of good job browsing through other sources – and as is often the case with using multiple sources, they turn out to contradict each other! We'll probably need some more time and effort to reconcile them and once we're done, we can work on correcting my image – or creating a new one from scratch. — Kpalion(talk) 23:58, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

illustrations
You will see I have changed the sizes & layout, but now you need details showing the centre left and right areas. Johnbod (talk) 10:46, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I restored the infobox and the section heading, as they are required by our manual of style. In particular, lead should only summarize the article, not contain unique claims. Also, I don't know what you mean by the needed details? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; talk 18:20, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't know what you mean by "our" MoS - the main MoS has no such requirement and the visual arts one specifically cautions against the automatic use of inboxes, for the reason that applies here so strongly, namely that they often make the image unusably small. You are also misreading WP:LEAD. By details I mean details of the painting, so that those readers who don't know the image by heart can actually see what is happening.  But I can see help is not welcome here, so I won't persevere. Johnbod (talk) 18:57, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
 * If you don't want to participate in a discussion to reach consensus, I cannot force you. I do agree that larger image is welcome, but I see no reason it cannot coexist with the also-useful infobox. As for WP:LEAD, no, I am pretty sure I am not misreading it: the lead should contain no original claims, as it should only summarize/provide an overview of the article that follows. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; talk 19:10, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

I have asked for an updated illustration at the Graphic Lab here. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; talk to me 06:02, 8 March 2012 (UTC)