Talk:Construcciones y Auxiliar de Ferrocarriles

Client list
How is the client list relevant here? I consider it listcruft in this case. As I mentioned in my edit summary, all a list such as that does is indicate that yeah, they have customers. Unless an individual customer is significant to the history of CAF, such as a company whose order launched them as a business, or otherwise significantly altered their operation, it be left out. And then with the criteria mentioned, it could be worked into the text itself rather than as part of a list. SchuminWeb (Talk) 19:23, 14 January 2008 (UTC)


 * You answered yourself, my friend. That's the main reason why the client list IS important here. CAF is the main world provider of rolling stock. CAF's clients are VERY important public rail companies in the world, IE AMTRAK, it's not "ya know, client list uh?". Ask any rail transport expert and they will let you know why CAF's clients are very relevant. I won't revert until I have clear that you understand my point, but... if we don't agree I will have to raise the case, ok? David (talk) 19:47, 14 January 2008 (UTC)


 * No. Every individual client is not necessarily notable in the context of CAF.  CAF may be notable in the context of the client (e.g. no one would argue for removing CAF from Metrorail rolling stock (Washington, D.C.)), but it doesn't necessarily work the other way around.  A good example of what I mean is Flxible.  There is no client list on that article, and the only client mentioned is New York City, and there, only in the context of problems with 870 frames, which is notable in the context of Flxible in that it was a large order that produced many defective units, and the buses ultimately came back.  Otherwise, finding out that a company has manufactured for many transit agencies doesn't make it special.  SchuminWeb (Talk) 01:49, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok, we get to the point... is there any WRITTEN norm that states this? or is it your humble opinion? David (talk) 09:06, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
 * There is no policy or guideline that I know of that addresses this, however, we are hammering out some discussion on this now, which contributes to a "written norm" of sorts. Also see Talk:Flxible for a similar, though less-productive discussion.  However, as the list itself had no citation, I can also challenge it on the basis of WP:V, as indicated at WP:LIST.  SchuminWeb (Talk) 19:37, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

And... finally 6 months after the discussion enters some new user and starts to add clients again, but only the UK and Ireland ones. This could go on forever, so I restored the complete list again so we don't need to be worried about incomplete lists as soon as some user realizes there are No clients and puts his own known CAF clients. David (talk) 12:15, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
 * And removed again. What does this add to the article?  It says, "We have customers."  Whoopty-doo.  With no customers, we would change CAF from an "is" to a "was".  I have yet to hear a convincing argument for inclusion of client lists.  SchuminWeb (Talk) 13:56, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Interesting link about new OARIS train
I have found this link about this train. --79.109.5.24 (talk) 16:48, 9 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Unusable as a source, because it's a discussion forum. SchuminWeb (Talk) 16:53, 9 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Could you explain your "Not news, not a resume, either" deletion? With that argument, you could have deleted the entire section, nut just the whole paragraph which I added to... --Rontombontom (talk) 11:29, 11 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia articles are not news articles, per WP:NOTNEWS. Likewise, "not a resume" falls under the same idea of "Wikipedia considers the enduring notability of persons and events" on the same page.  Listing all of CAF's various contracts as they come up is not what an encyclopedia is about.  We trimmed the article about Ansaldobreda back to a stub on the same not-a-resume idea.  SchuminWeb (Talk) 15:50, 11 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Clipping the dates would have been enough to change the newsyness, per WP:ATD, but you deleted an entire paragraph. Furthermore, like I said, you could have deleted the entire rest of the Rolling Stock section with that reasoning. Unless your view is that a selection of CAF's orders in news form is right but a total list isn't; in which case I disagree with the currently visible selection: it leaves out a significant part of the product range (the 250 km/h trains and my addition, Oaris, in the paragraph you deleted; and I see suburban/regional trains are completely left out too), and goes into detail on less important overseas exports but leaves out core products closer to the home market.


 * I note that by the same standards, in my view AnsaldoBreda has a rather good selection in its "stub" version, only commuter rail examples are missing (but I see that corresponding articles remain to be written on the English wiki).


 * At any rate, I propose that the paragraph be restored, and then the entire section be re-written as a listing of rolling stock areas, with examples for each. --Rontombontom (talk) 18:59, 13 September 2010 (UTC)


 * There was no reply for long enough, so I proceeded as proposed above. I note that, having looked at the old version more closely, I saw that it was far from a complete list of even recent CAF orders... maybe except for supplies to the USA. The high-speed train for TCDD and Oaris were definitely non-redundant, unlike the many metro and LRV vehicles; and the North Ireland EMU was alone too as mainline EMU.-Rontombontom (talk) 19:17, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Inclusion of CAF products
It's been argued that CAF's Urbos 3 rolling stock can't be mentioned because of WP:NOTNEWS; although I disagree, this is no place for a revert war. Would some other phrasing be more acceptable? I'm pretty sure that an article about a rolling stock manufacturer has room for an accurate, sourced, verifiable sentence about one of their main types of rolling stock. Or should the content be omitted for some period of time until Urbos 3 ceases to be "news"? bobrayner (talk) 20:08, 28 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Every time CAF wins a contract does not necessarily mean it ends up in here. If it becomes a big deal for other reasons, such as the Flxible 870 frames for an NYC contract, then it gets mentioned.  Otherwise, it's just the company finding business and not particularly notable in the context of CAF.  It may be more notable in the context of the transit provider (such as WMATA's purchase of 192 rail cars from CAF), but not necessarily in the context of CAF.  SchuminWeb (Talk) 20:19, 28 November 2010 (UTC)


 * My main interest was in introducing the rolling stock type rather just listing one more sale. :-)
 * Would you be happy with a different wording which underlines the CAF product rather than the contract? bobrayner (talk) 20:28, 28 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Please provide a sample? SchuminWeb (Talk) 21:14, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

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