Talk:Contemporary Sant Mat movements

Repair on External Links
Modified the "Sant Mat, Kabir Panth, and Radhasoami Guru Lineage Charts" link so it's not broken. It's to the same page only https instead of http and it no longer has the .html ending now.

I repaired some damage to the external inks area, as all contemporary teachers other than Darshan Singh's links had been deleted. Come on, folks. Let's follow the wikipedia guidelines as well as those of Sant Mat, for crying out loud.

FYI I also removed the Sant Mat "roots" links. IMHO these now properly belong in Jossi's main "Sant Mat" article.

Sevadar 23:43, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Readdition
I noticed that an addition of jossi's (the link to the Media Seva site) was deleted without comment by 198.103.223.51 (apparently anonomous)on Jan 16 06. Pending an explanation, I have re-added it, as well as a more in depth Sadhu Ram Ji site. Any problems? Hope "anonomous" will discuss before deleteing this time. [User:Ahamkara] Feb 26 2006

Cleanup
I was about to slap a tag on this article, but for now and with the hope that it can indeed be cleaned up, I have added a cleanup tag. Many sections contains uneeded superlatives as well as laking proper attributions and citacions. Hope other editors can also join in and perform a thorough clean up of this article. --ZappaZ 00:16, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

I am starting work on this cleanup you mention, but I am new to wiki so if I screw things up please point that out... Thanks kindly User:Sevadar Aug 18 2005.

Neutral Point of View
Please take a look at the Neutral point of view page for suggestions on how to maintain an unbiased, encyclopedic tone and content that is neither for nor against the topic or alternative perspectives on the topic. RDF 19:27, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Revert by Andries of user:sevadar's edits
I gave sevadar's edits a reverts because s/he removed a lot of interesting information. Feel free to expand but do not remove information please. Andries 19:43, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

In Progress
I am working on it. Thank-you for your patience. Sevadar 14:37, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

Radasoami
Sam Spade's additions equated Sant Mat with Radasoami. This was not borne out by any references or arguments, so I removed that and integrated the rest of Spade's input into the appropriate areas like Geographical Reach for the location of RSSB. Spade also put a redirect from RSSB to Sant Mat, as if they were one and the same. This is an incorrect use of the redirect, as far as I know.

There are some things a person who is acquainted with RSSB can do here:


 * Add current statistics on the Beas mission;
 * Indicate any current Master if that lineage is active;
 * Provide some useful quotations from the easier Masters to illustrate the other points in the article

OR better yet, Make a proper RSSB article.

Sevadar 01:17, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Please attribute opinions
Sevadar and others, there are a lot of unattributed opinions in the article presented as fact. These have to be attributed or removed. Also I think that using phrases between quotes without attributing them is bad style. Thanks. Andries 20:26, 29 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Hi Andries, Can you be so kind as to flag these, perhaps here on the talk page? I am happy to work on attributions, but it would help if you could point out where you see a problem. I think the quotes are pretty clear from the context, where they came from. If you don't agree, feel free to "fix" the style. 18:37, 30 October 2005 (UTC) [[User:Sevadar|Sevadar]


 * Here are clear cases of unattributed opinions in the article. There are more
 * "However, what a doctor has for breakfast does not make any difference to his efficacy as a doctor. What a lawyer takes in his tea has no correlation to his skill in arguing a case. So what is essential to Sant Mat has nothing to so with studies of sociological or political reality as Sant Mat has no point in contact with these topics. "
 * I think that this view is held by the believers in Sant Mat, but this opinion has to be attributed, preferrably by a notable proponent of this view, as per the NPOV guidelines. Andries 19:53, 5 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I agree. I'll see what I can find. 00:31, 7 November 2005 (UTC)Sevadar

Factual accuracy
In reading this article I can see that there are several issues with factual accuracy, in particular with the lack of information about the distiction with Radha Soami and the different branches/splinter gorups. Seems that it is written from the perspectuive ofthe Radha Soami Satsang Beas, the splinter group founded by Baba Jaimal Singh and later by Kirpal Singh. Can anyone assist with this? Thanks. &asymp; jossi fresco &asymp; t &bull; @ 01:24, 27 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Thanks for raising this issue! I can add from the perspective of the clueless, that the set of articles Sant Mat, Radha Soami, Radha Soami Satsang Beas aren't very helpful for the reader without prior knowledge. I can't even make it out which is the "splinter" and which is the "parent" group. --Pjacobi 04:54, 27 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I am researching the subject I can see that there is a lot of confusion, particulary as the articles themselves have a rather "modern" perspective rather than an historical perspective. Somehow the Sant Mat tradition (the tradition of the poent saints, Hindu and muslim saints of the "Sant Parampara") that has not much to do with sectarian or religious aspects, is missing from the article. I am reading the book "The Sants: Studies in A Devotional Tradition of India" (ISBN 0-961-22080-5) with contributions from experts such as Juergensmeyer, Gold, Charlotte Vaudeville and others, that presents the historical aspects of Sant Mat. I will be making contibutions from this book after I complete my notes. Then there is the whole aspect of the Radha Soami lineages and the Advait Mat with fascinating information available in numerous books. Most interesting is the confusion even amongst scholars that for example confuse Swarupanand of the Advait Mat lineage with Anand Swarup from one of the the Radha Soami lineages. The fact that all these groups shared the same part of India/Pakistan, that some of the terms they use are similar, and the reliance on poets such as Kabir, Guru Nanak, Namdev, Tulsi Sahib and others makes it even more prone to confusion. Hopefully, by gathering all available information we shall be able to provide readers with a good perspective on this subject. &asymp; jossi fresco &asymp; t &bull; @ 06:32, 27 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Another confusion seems to derive from the fact that there are two Dayals involved, one in Advait Mat (Dayal Ji) and one in Radha Soami ((Shiv Dayal Singh). &asymp; jossi fresco &asymp; t &bull; @ 04:31, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Proposal
This article, as written, is focused on contemporary movements, teachers and protagonists that consider themselves to be part of the Sant Mat tradition. This is what I propose: Unless there are any objections, I will do so in a week or so. &asymp; jossi fresco &asymp; t &bull; @ 02:33, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
 * 1) Move this article to Contemporary Sant Mat movements
 * 2) Create a new article Sant Mat in which the historical perspective of the Sant Mat is presented.
 * 3) After the move is made, the current article needs to be thoroughly cleaned up to remove the confusion between the terms Sant Mat, Radha Soami, Shabd and Surat Shabd in the article, as well as provide better linkage to existing articles on these subjects.


 * 1) Created new article Sant Mat (more material to come)
 * 2) This article is now Contemporary Sant Mat movement and needs some copyedit to remove some confusing statements and to provide context to some of the assertions made (such as linkage to Sufism, etc.)
 * 3) Modified categories to fit exisiting articles.
 * &asymp; jossi fresco &asymp; t &bull; @ 23:57, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Factual accuracy warning
These assertions are factually inaccurate and/or lack attribution:
 * 1) Sant Mat shares a lineage with Sikhism and contains elements of thought found in Hinduism, such as karma and reincarnation. Sant Mat also contains elements found in Sufism and has inspired and influenced a number of religious groups and organizations.
 * 2) Sant Mat is a synonym for Surat Shabd Yoga, the yoga of the Sound Current, or more simply Shabd yoga, 
 * 3) Sant Mat has progressively moved from relative obscurity in Northern India into an international phenomenon over the last 100 years.
 * 4) Technically speaking Sant Mat practice involves listening to the Inner Sound, contemplating the Inner Light, and (eventually) leaving the human body at will 
 * 5) Sant Mat emphasizes the helping factors of an ethical lifestyle and selfless service. 
 * 6) The Sant Mat path has been compared variously to spiritual traditions followed by the Pythagoreans, Hermeticists, the Sethians, Theraputae, Essenes (and other mystics within Judaism), the original Jewish Christians, the Gnostic religions, Manichaeans, some Catholic monasteries, monasteries of the Orthodox Church -- including the great mystery school atop Mount Athos in Greece, and the Sufi mystics of Islam who practice Zikar of the Spirit, Light, and Sound.

The article also suffers from a confusing array of assertions made about Surat Shabd and its relation to Sant Mat. In addition, 99% of the material is based on the interpretation and/or application of cosmological/theological/social aspects as presented by sevaral teachers associated with the Radha Soami tradition, that is one of the many  movements that share a common past with the Sant Mat tradition. As such, these could be merged into the Radha Soami article.

Other issues:
 * The Practitce section seems to be related to Radha Soami practices or other contemporary Shabd practices, but no information is provided
 * The origins section does not present the Sant Mat origin. See Sant Mat for some historical info
 * The external links section is enormous, it needs pairing down. Wikipedia is not a web directory.

&asymp; jossi fresco &asymp; t &bull; @ 17:12, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Merging
This article needs to be re-assigned to the Radha Soami article, as it presents this movement's viewpoint of Sant Mat. I will proceed with merging these in a week. If you want to help cleaning this up or assisting with the merge, please say so. If you object, say so as well. Thanks. &asymp; jossi &asymp; t &bull; @ 06:43, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Is it the case that merging this article with the Radha Soami would be like Radha Soami claiming that it is the 'real' Sant Mat, with other spiritual traditions deriving from the founders of Sant Mat being held to be slightly inferior in some ways? Would merging this article with the Radha Soami article amount to saying that Radha Soami is the only contemporary spiritual movement/tradition which can lay claim to being derived from the original Sant Mat? If this article presents a view of the Sant Mat movement/tradition which is peculiar to Radha Soami then are there other views of Sant Mat which are not held within Radha Soami?  It's beginning to look to me as if the final paragraph of the 'Sant Mat' article should be elaborated upon so as to discuss (or at least mention) all contemporary traditions which are Sant Mat derivatives.   Nagasena 01:11, 29 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your comment and your concern with which I agree. My intention is to move material relevant to Radha Soami to the Radha Soami article, keeping a short article here in which all contemporary Sant Mat derivatives can be presented. The Sant Mat article, that is more focused on Sant Mat itself as it pertains to its historicity and origins, can then have mention of contremporary traditions with an obvious link to this article. Your assistance will be much appreciated. &asymp; jossi &asymp; t &bull; @ 02:54, 29 December 2005 (UTC)


 * That sounds good. Although I have some acquaintance with other Indo-Tibetan spiritual traditions I have only recently begun to take an interest in Sant Mat, so (lacking access to libraries at present) I probably can't be of much assistance in providing information.  Proof-reading, perhaps. I look forward, however, to following developments in this area.  Nagasena 10:54, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Your help is mots welcome. I am tight with time so it will be a while before I can attempot the merger. Regarding Sant Mat, there is very little info that is not tainted by interpretation by current movements that claim to be the ones carrying the tradition forward. I prefer to stick with the words of the Sants such as Kabir, Nanak, Namdev, Mirabai and others as these carry a feeling that resonate with me. &asymp; jossi &asymp; t &bull; @ 20:17, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Logic conflict
Sant Mat is defined/translated differently at the start of this piece to how it is defined/translated in the main Sant Mat article, and the second section here. It needs one definition, can someone take a look and decide on one common definition. Thanks StopItTidyUp 11:43, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

reason for revert
the statments i removed are difficult and impossible to verify, plus they are highly inflammatory in character.For more reliable source, check this. Also the sources quoted (REf. No.22), for statments removed by me are not verifiable. The online version (REF.NO.21) does not mention anything stated in what i removed. Ajjay (talk) 05:34, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

here are incompatible views regarding the lineage of one proposed Sant Mat founder, Shiv Dayal Singh, because the tradition "went underground" for a time and was lost to history. Ruhani Satsang, which was established by Sant Kirpal Singh in 1949, set the start of the Sant Mat movement even earlier than Shiv Dayal's time, asserting the existence of an unbroken line of spiritual succession starting with the poet saint Kabir, on to Guru Nanak and the other nine masters of the Sikh religion, and ultimately to Shiv Dayal Singh. Others deny this because the fate of the Tenth Sikh Guru, Guru Gobind Singh, is not well understood by history. Some believed he died in the civil war raging at the time (which is the orthodox Sikh viewpoint); Sant Kirpal Singh writes this was not the case, and that Gobind Singh initiated a person named Ratnager Rao, a member of Gobind Singh's household. Ratnager Rao initiated Tulsi Sahib, and Tulsi Sahib initiated Shiv Dayal Singh.

That was the material deleted. If you have better sources, please fix it. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:29, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
 * "Others deny this because the fate of the Tenth Sikh Guru, Guru Gobind Singh, is not well understood by history. Some believed he died in the civil war raging at the time (which is the orthodox Sikh viewpoint); Sant Kirpal Singh writes this was not the case, and that Gobind Singh initiated a person named Ratnager Rao, a member of Gobind Singh's household"


 * Wrong history. Can't be fixed. Ajjay (talk) 16:06, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Then delete that text, but keep the rest. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:32, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I think the rest is already mentioned in the article. In the "introduction" and last para "other contemprory movements". (-: Ajjay (talk) 04:49, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Fake Veda Quote?
There is a quote from the Vedas in the article:

''In the beginning was Prajapati (the Creator), With Him was the Vak (the Word), And the Vak (the Word) was verily the Supreme Brahman.''

It is supposed to show the similarity between Gospel of John and the Vedas. But where is such quote found in the Vedas? I think it's just made up. I cannot find it anywhere. It should probably be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.212.119.170 (talk) 13:19, 13 October 2016 (UTC)