Talk:Contra-alto clarinet

Former redirect
I added a redirect from "contralto clarinet" to this page. Actually, arguably, that should be the title of the article. -- Ithacagorges
 * I would agree. "Contralto" seems to be the more common spelling.  Powers 17:07, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
 * It may be more common but it is less correct. The word "contralto" in reference to vocal ranges is essentially synonymous with "alto" (see alto) -- not logically, perhaps, but in well-established usage.  Clarinet nomenclature may not make perfect sense, but it is more or less based on vocal range names, and to call an instrument an octave lower than an alto and a half octave lower than a bass "contralto", when the slightly less absurd -- and quite standard -- term "contra-alto" is available, is silly. Rsholmes 05:01, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
 * You definitely have a point; however, many names and terms are misnomers to one extent or another. I'd be inclined to use the most common spelling/variation of the term.  This clarinet is sometimes called the "Eb contrabass", which probably makes the most sense of the three terms, however it is also the least common. The Bb contrabass clarinet is listed as such rather than "contra-bass" (although this is less of a misnomer and again both are used) so "contralto" might be a bit more consistent. -- Ithacagorges 07:58, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
 * OK, after further research, I'm more inclined to agree with Rsholmes. I hadn't realized the connotation of the "contralto" term in vocal ranges.  I maintain that the contracted form is more elegant (and would probably use it personally if I were to take up the instrument), but I don't have a problem with "contra-alto."  Also, a Google search contradicted my previous evaluation that "contralto" was more common; in reference to clarinets, it seems "contra-alto" has more hits.  Even Selmer Paris uses the hyphenated form: .  Leblanc does too: . Powers 15:33, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Eb Contra Alto Clarinet
From a musical perspective, it is difficult justify or consider any term with greater clarity than Bass Clarinet in Eb or Eb Bass Clarinet.

The Eb Contra Alto Clarinet is a bass clarinet. What quality would lead one to describe it as alto? What quality would lead one to descibe it a contra alto?

I would no more call a Bass Clarinet in Eb a contra alto clarinet, then the Bass Clarinet in Bb a sub contra Bb (neutral\non soprano non tenor\standard) clarinet.

The Eb Alto Clarinet in my mind functions to smooth the Bb Clarinet, or A and Bb Clarinets, a patch for the clarinet inter choir gap, and previously, perhaps hypothetically, and in my mind, still justafiably, intra choir break.

The Eb Bass Clarinet (Contra-Alto Clarinet) is a bass instrument, it has no functional relation that one would expect from the name contra alto.

It is a Bass Clarinet in Eb. It is not a contra bass clarinet.

The Contrabass Clarinet in Bb, is a contra bass clarinet, it functions in a way that is related, or set against the bass clarinets in Bb and Eb, although it certainly has its own individuality.

I think in instrument names, the word contra has, like it or not, a superlative function.

A Contrabass Clarinet is a very bass clarinet. What else could one say? Super bass? Bass bass? Sub bass? Double bass? (That sounds familiar.)

That someone could write in a score Contra-alto Clarinets instead of Bass Clarinets in Eb, or Eb Bass Clarinets, is remarkable.

You don't suppose it could be because Eb in a rough hand might look like Bb?

For the heading of the entry, I would favor Contra-alto too, or whatever is most frequently used, since that is what people will want to know about.

"What is a Contra-Alto Clarinet?" The answer: A bass clarinet in Eb. Or: A bass clarinet in Eb, sounding lower than the bass clarinet in Bb.

Then the always difficult question:

"Why is it called a Contra-Alto Clarinet?"

Perhaps only because it is considered to be pitched an octave below the Alto Clarinet.

Perhaps to draw attention to it as something new, for marketing, like a brand name.

Ryo-17 12:03, 24 December 2006 (UTC)


 * This is a very old discussion and so I apologise to all for only becoming interested in it now. I've been playing a contralto / contra-alto clarinet for a few years now and have often wondered about the variety of names for the instrument.
 * When we are talking about instrument names, I think that it's helpful and necessary to look at other related languages for perspective. If we start with the stringed instrument, the double bass:
 * English: double bass
 * German: Kontrabass
 * French: contrebasse
 * Italian: contrabbasso
 * In this case, English prefers the qualifying "double" to denote being lower than a bass, but the three other languages use the prefix "contra". Some performers do use the term "contrabass" in English, but this is rarer that "double bass" or just "bass". Wind orchestra scores will use the term "string bass" to distinguish it from the other bass wind instruments.
 * English: contrabassoon
 * German: Kontrafagott
 * French: contrebasson
 * Italian: controfagotto
 * Again, the prefix "contra" indicates being lower than a bassoon, in this case, an octave lower. This connection between octave and contra is applicable here, but not necessarily in the case of the double bass/contrabass, because not all double basses have a low C extension or fifth low C string, and the tuning of the strings (C, E, A, D, G) in all cases is not simply one octave lower than cello (C, G, D, A). The contrabassoon is sometimes called a double bassoon in English, but less often.
 * So in terms of the usage of the prefix "contra" with our beloved contralto/contra-alto clarinet, contra is useful in the sense that it tells us that this is instrument is both lower *and* an octave lower than the alto clarinet. In terms of range, contra — which also applies to the range of pitches between C1 and B1 (the lowest complete octave of the piano) — is an apt term for the instrument because its range extends downwards to either sounding contra F#1 or contra Eb1, in both cases covering at least half of the contra octave. The instrument can therefore function as a contra-instrument, in absence of a contrabass clarinet, providing octave support for the bass and alto clarinets or functioning alone as the bass/pedal.
 * Then we come to the tricky bit: contralto or contra-alto?
 * To my mind, the clarinet family has completely departed from any kind of correlation to the family of vocal ranges. The saxophone family somehow makes sense, because the instruments' transpositions are so well organised, being predominantly in Bb or Eb. Clarinets are all over the place, and there is one main problem: the so-called alto clarinet (whose name is as far as I'm aware not being questioned) is in the position of a tenor clarinet. Indeed there are "tenor clarinet" projects with instruments pitched higher than an alto clarinet. For this reason, an adherence to vocal ranges when naming clarinets is a particularly fraught task.
 * English: alto clarinet
 * German: Altklarinette
 * French: clarinette alto
 * Italian: clarinetto contralto (!!) --> also sassofono contralto & flauto contralto
 * Here we run into a problem: Italian has for some reason gone with the term contralto to designate the nominal range of the alto clarinet and alto saxophone. "alto" simply means "high", which for an English-speaker sensibility is somewhat grating, because we associate the term "alto" with the idea of "less than high". Perhaps the contra- prefix in this case refers to both instruments' ability to play much lower than the alto vocal range (alto clarinet down to F#2 and alto saxophone to C#3), however this wouldn't apply to the alto flute (flauto contralto) because its low range corresponds exactly with that of the vocal range. According to the Italian Wikipedia, the term "contralto" relating to the alto vocal range is a shortening of the much older term "contratenor altus" and is simply the Italian equivalent of the word "alto/Alt" in other Western European languages. However, in all three cases (clarinetto contralto, sassofono contralto and contralto (voice type)) it is indicated that the shortened form "alto" is also in use. It may be a matter of time until this term in Italian is eroded to simply "alto", thanks also to globalisation. In the English language however, the eliding of the prefix contra- with the vocal range determiner that starts with a vowel, in this case "alto", is a standard linguistic manoeuvre and literally means "lower than alto" (the eliding of contra- and -bass is not possible due the consonant at the start of "bass"). So a contralto clarinet in any and every single case, is a clarinet that is pitched lower than the alto clarinet and has nothing to do with the vocal range. If we take into account the usage of the prefix contra- in instrument nomenclature (and in the English language, disregarding Italian for a moment) then contra- pertains to instruments that are either lower or an octave lower than their counterparts. The combination of both of these factors leads to the term, when used in English, "contralto".
 * If we briefly look at the names in the construction of low clarinets:
 * Leblanc: in the advertising material of the original Leblanc low clarinets in EEb and BBb the terms contra-alto and contrabass (in French, contre-alto and contrebasse) were preferred.
 * Selmer: in the advertising material of the rosewood instruments in EEb and BBb the terms contralto and contrabass (in French, contralto and contrebasse) are preffered.
 * Buffet: only make contralto/contra-alto clarinets and their website is in three of the above discussed languages: English: contra alto clarinet (without hyphen); German: Kontraaltklarinette; French: clarinette contralto
 * Evidently these three manufacturers also cannot agree on the nomenclature, the French terms actively disregarding the possible confusion with their Latin-based language neighbours, Italy.
 * As a professional performer who deals with these problems on a daily basis, I have come to refer to the clarinet family using the following groupings and terms:
 * high-range clarinets:
 * piccolo clarinets in D/Eb/G/Ab --> avoiding soprano/sopranino (DE: kleine; FR: petite; IT: piccolo)
 * clarinets in A/Bb/C --> avoiding soprano, they don't need a qualifying adjective, it's a clarinet.
 * basset clarinets in A/Bb --> referring to the extended range of the standard instrument
 * mid-range clarinets:
 * clarinet d'amore in G --> historically referenced term for G clarinets with bulbous bell
 * basset horns in F/G --> surprisingly, this term, now over 300 years old, hasn't been modified or questioned.
 * alto clarinet in Eb --> really a tenor clarinet, but here we are…
 * low-range clarinets:
 * bass clarinet in Bb --> "bass" in woodwind instruments most often equating to one octave lower than the standard instrument (bass flute, bass oboe)
 * contralto clarinet in Eb --> one octave lower than the alto
 * contrabass clarinet in Bb --> one octave lower than the bass Mindandnature (talk) 09:49, 28 June 2024 (UTC)