Talk:Convoy PQ 16

re-write?
This page seems a bit odd; it doesn't read like the other convoy battle pages. I think I'll be bold and have a go at re-vamping it. Xyl 54 (talk) 22:55, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
 * OK, done. Xyl 54 (talk) 22:15, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

First hand account
It's really baffling why Alexander Werth's first hand account (The year of Stalingrad) didn't find any space in the current article. 00:47, 18 July 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.99.84.4 (talk)


 * Don't know it. But it looks like a general work on the Soviet Union's war as a whole; what can it add to an article about a specific operation (and a mainly British one at that)? Xyl 54 (talk) 03:27, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

The Year of Stalingrad by Alexander Werth
I added this as a separate section "In popular literature." To answer the earlier question, quite a big portion of the book is devoted to the journey via the PQ-16 convoy -- the air attacks, the response, the losses, the convoy's arrival at Murmansk. That section really showed the reality of the convoys and was a huge page turner. Highly recommended to anyone interested in the Arctic convoys. --K.e.coffman (talk) 05:09, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

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Coordinates
A recent edit removed on the basis that the coordinates are supposed to identify the location of the article subject, but the convoy clearly was not at the North Pole. Yet the permalink with the map shows that it works well. Any suggestions on what to do? I would apply WP:IAR and restore the coordinates although they are incorrect, and indeed no point can be correct for a convoy. Otherwise, the script error needs to be fixed. Johnuniq (talk) 02:00, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
 * coordinates =
 * I suspect that this an issue is because the WikiMiniAtlas uses OpenStreetmap, which in turn uses the Web Mercator projection. The Web Mercator projection does not work about ~85.1°, so the dot is shown at the closest point on the map. I haven't looked at all the code, so I could be mistaken. — BillHPike (talk, contribs) 02:27, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
 * I've only just noticed that the coords for the Arctic Ocean article are for the NP.... What would be better, the Norwegian or Bering Barents seas? Keith-264 (talk) 18:04, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

Recent edits
Thanks very much for the scrutiny and amendments. I can't remember how many of the mistakes are mine but the reponsibility for them belongs to me. When I get a minute (I do six shifts this week) I will consult Rohwer and Hummelchen for ship details. Regards Keith-264 (talk) 19:15, 31 January 2022 (UTC)
 * PS Graeme can you cite your efns pls? Regards Keith-264 (talk) 19:44, 31 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I hadn't realised how unwritten the article was when I asked for help, looks like I'll have to get busy. Keith-264 (talk) 11:52, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

See/check:

On page 182 it says: In 1942, 1. Staffel of Seeaufklärungsgruppe 125 was transferred to Norway. It is therefore likely that "A squadron of Aufklärungsflieger Gruppe 125" refers to Seeaufkl. Gr. 1./125. I also think that "1./KüFlGr 125" is also Seeaufkl. Gr. 1./125. With respect to Kü.Fl.Gr. 406, in 1942, all three of its squadrons were based in Norway (see page 180). 1./(F) 22, was a squadron of Aufklärungsgeschwader 12 (12th Reconnaissance Wing), this unit was subordinated to Luftflotte 5 in 1942/43 (page 165). 1./KüFlGr 123 is difficult to pinpoint, I assume it could be Aufkl. Gr. 3.(F)/123 which was subordinated to Fliegerführer Atlantik (page 153). Cheers MisterBee1966 (talk) 20:21, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Actually, the unit we are looking for is Aufkl. Gr. 1.(F)/124, subordinated to Luftflotte 5 and based at Kirkenes (page 154). Cheers MisterBee1966 (talk) 20:46, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
 * 10./ZG 5 probably refers to the 10.(Z)/JG 5. JG 5 had a Zerstörerstaffel, which was later renamed to 13.(Z)/JG 5 in June 1942. MisterBee1966 (talk) 05:18, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
 * I will check It may say something about operations against Convoy PQ 16. MisterBee1966 (talk) 05:27, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

Based on Mombeek page 181, PQ 16 is spotted on 25 May. At the same time, QP12 with 15 freighters leaves Murmansk heading for Island. From 25 to 30 May, Luftwaffe forces operate against both convoys, not just PQ 16. For JG 5, this means fighter escort missions for Ju 88 and He 111 bombers. The Soviet intervene with Hurricane fighters from 197. IAP and 2. gwSAP, and P-40 fighters from 20. gwIAP (pages 182 to 185) with lots of aerial victories claimed on both sides. It would be good if the aerial battle would be expanded. MisterBee1966 (talk) 08:13, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

Luftwaffe or Luftwaffe
, I believe you once told me that the word Luftwaffe is no longer a loanword and should not be in italics (MOS:FOREIGNITALIC). Did I understand this correctly? Cheers MisterBee1966 (talk) 05:10, 6 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Please see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history/Archive 120, in essence "Luftwaffe" is in Merriam-Webster Online, see . Therefore, Luftwaffe should not be in italics. MisterBee1966 (talk) 13:11, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
 * OK Keith-264 (talk) 13:58, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

Background getting quite extensive but..
Well, I now know a lot more about Luftwaffe organisation but the convoy cargo needs more coverage. Not until after the convoy has reached its destination do we get a partial breakdown of what it carried.

I think it would be helpful for the reader to have more idea of the cargo contents which then ties into the overall picture of the importance of the supplies to the USSR. GraemeLeggett (talk) 19:14, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Quite agree, I'm a bit busy though as me wife went into hospital today a bit sudden. I decided to mine Claasen and do Woodman and DRZW later. There's plenty to add to the Convoy section. Regards Keith-264 (talk) 19:46, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm thinking forwards to using the general stuff in the background in other articles, hence the pedantic attention to detail. ;O) Keith-264 (talk) 19:48, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Hope everything resolves OK. GraemeLeggett (talk) 21:05, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks, she's just texted that she will be coming home soon. Keith-264 (talk) 21:32, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

Action
I've made a start on the voyage and have a lot to do so I'd appreciate it if other editors let it lie for a day or two until I have the narrative done. Regards Keith-264 (talk) 13:43, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Nearly finished, just need QP 12 entries, the heavy lift ships and clarifications in the Analysis then finish the lead. Keith-264 (talk) 09:30, 9 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Ordered the surgeon, Ransome's memoirs, hope to glean lots for the article. Keith-264 (talk) 21:18, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

Data from Hobbs
This is from Hobbs' The Fleet Air Arm and the War in Europe, 1939–1945, p182: "...Enemy air attacks on PQ 16 were the largest yet attempted: beginning on 25 May and continuing for four days. It was estimated that thirty-four torpedo aircraft and 208 bombers attacked but the C-in-C reported that the bombers only pressed home their attacks on one day and the torpedo aircraft were ‘cautious in the extreme and generally ineffective’. They sank six ships out of thirty-five, however, and another was sunk by a U-boat. Several U-boats were believed to have been damaged by the escorts, which drove off a number of attempted attacks. It was also believed that four enemy aircraft had certainly been shot down and another sixteen probably so. German records studied after the war showed that Lufiflotte V had lost eight Ju 88 bombers. One of the enemy aircraft definitely accounted for was shot down by the Hurricane from the CAM ship Empire Lawrence, which was launched on 25 May although, interestingly, its pilot, Flying Officer Hay RAF, identified it as a He 111..." Damwiki1 (talk) 07:25, 30 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I'm looking forward to gleaning details from this author. Regards Keith-264 (talk) 14:08, 10 July 2024 (UTC)