Talk:Convoy PQ 18

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http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d7/PQ18-Karte-DE-1942.svg

Greetings from Germany - Rainer E. 84.150.20.206 (talk) 05:49, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Finnish Radio Intelligence
It should probably be mentioned that it was the Finnish radio intelligence that intercepted and deciphered the precise travel plan of the convoy. Reino Hallamaa got an Iron Cross because of that. -- 194.215.123.199 (talk) 10:46, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

When Hitler got information about convoy PQ18, he asked "Wovon stammt der Spruch?". When he has told, it came from Finnish Radio intelligence, he gave order to give all equipment for Finland Radio intelligence, what they want. 185.110.79.167 (talk) 22:59, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

LWD
I previously placed a link to the SIG data in the external links section of this article. You can take at look at it. It is clear from that data, which is drawn from Luftwaffe records that four I/KG26 He-111s were shot down which closely matches RN claims. The recent availability of Luftwaffe loss records makes Bekkers account obsolete, although still useful to fill in some details. Damwiki1 (talk) 02:56, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

CE and revision
Added citations and ce prose, changed ship templates to HMS 6, cites to sfn re: B1Keith-264 (talk) 12:11, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

The separate order of battle page Order of battle for Convoy PQ 18 is far more detailed and elaborate is there any point in the OOB section in this article? Keith-264 (talk) 00:54, 25 March 2018 (UTC)


 * I would ask why there is a separate page for the Order of Battle. I think it should be incorporated into the convoy page Lyndaship (talk) 10:54, 25 March 2018 (UTC)
 * The OOB page is quite elaborate, with wikitables etc, which I think justifies the separation or we'd have a massive OOB section in the article. (Did the editor intend to provide then for each Arctic convoy since other separate PQ oobs follow the same pattern?) I wonder about the one here. Woodman provides a lot of narrative detail which makes it practical to name the ships involved and their fate in the article, which could make the section redundant. If so the link will suffice. NB my edits to the article are strictly suggestive and I'm happy to discuss them. Regards Keith-264 (talk) 11:56, 25 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Do what you think is best. I don't think separate OOB articles are appropriate for a convoy when the forces involved are just in the one action. There's only 5 convoy OOB articles listed Lyndaship (talk) 14:28, 25 March 2018 (UTC)
 * I favor combining the OOB and convoy battle description in a single article. Thewellman (talk) 15:27, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

I won't stand in anyone's way. ;O) Regards Keith-264 (talk) 16:21, 25 March 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm putting the ship names into the narrative and would like to see what effect this has on the article, to see if the merchant ship list at the end will still be necessary. I'm also adding some narrative detail from Woodman like the Pedestal article, see efn for Bullshit Bob ;o), hence the edit breaks in the Battle section. Keith-264 (talk) 14:40, 26 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Been watching you working away. I'm a bit dubious about listing lots of ships in the text as it makes it difficult to read. It has been suggested to me that this is discouraged and referred to as "laundry listing". Tables are nice though! Lyndaship (talk) 14:50, 26 March 2018 (UTC)
 * It is looking a bit bulky isn't it? I'll try moving them to efns. Keith-264 (talk) 15:59, 26 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Any better? Keith-264 (talk) 16:26, 26 March 2018 (UTC)
 * I like it better like that but do it the way which feels right for you Lyndaship (talk) 17:39, 26 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Thank you, those bits are experimental so I'm open to suggestion, page watchers deserve a look in. I thought that when I put the ship details in at the top, lots of dupe links would show up further down but I was wrong. Keith-264 (talk) 17:52, 26 March 2018 (UTC)
 * I think that's enough for now; still open to opinion on form and content. Regards Keith-264 (talk) 10:57, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

Recent edit
Blanked temporarily your edit as the citations don't work. Regards Keith-264 (talk) 08:09, 1 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Oh right, there was error in the link, fixed. Minor point but I'd rather keep the modified wording as now the Axis codebreaking efforts sound like a weirdly worded afterthought in a chapter which is all about ULTRA. --Mikoyan21 (talk) 21:40, 1 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks babe, had I better sources on the German codebreaking effort it would have got its own section. Keith-264 (talk) 22:03, 1 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Current state of the article is OK. --Mikoyan21 (talk) 18:30, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

Merchant ships section
Do we need it when there's an OOB article? Keith-264 (talk) 10:27, 2 July 2021 (UTC)

Rahn
Hello Dam, the convoy took place from 2 to 21 September 1942, why does 17 September invalidate Rahn? Regards Keith-264 (talk) 23:47, 17 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Hi. Well, you've really answered your question, as Rahn's source doesn't provide a true summary of aircraft losses since it is dated to a time before the action was completed and, not surprisingly, it conflicts with multiple sources that state Luftwaffe losses in the range of ~40 aircraft. I had to do a considerable amount of digging to locate the relevant chapter and then the relevant footnote. I suppose I could add his numbers as a footnote with an explanation.Damwiki1 (talk) 02:07, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
 * We could qualify it by writing "up to 17 September" but if you aren't sure that his figures are valid.... I thought that he stopped at that date because most of the action was over. I tend to the view that a lower loss figure from the side that suffered them compensates for over-claiming by the other side. Regards Keith-264 (talk) 08:00, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
 * The problem is that we don't know how up to date the source dated 17 Sept was; it may have been several days out of date. Theile is German native who references Luftwaffe records and he states the loss of 44 Luftwaffe aircraft. Some years ago I verified the loss of 23 Luftwaffe aircraft that participated in attacks on PQ18 on 14 Sept alone via online Luftwaffe loss records.Damwiki1 (talk) 08:53, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Best leave it aside methinks. Regards Keith-264 (talk) 09:20, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

Merchant ships section
Replaced the list of merchant ships with the tables from Order of battle for Convoy PQ 18 Regards Keith-264 (talk) 11:32, 3 September 2023 (UTC)