Talk:Cool S

Earliest known usages of name
When for example is the earliest we can find someone calling this a "stussy S"?

http://www.printmag.com/imprint/solve-the-mystery-of-the-pointy-s/ doesn't in the article body but 1 December 2010 comment " I was penning the “Stüssy S.” As a bonus, I always added a 3-prong jester hat to the top of my S" by a "John" calls it that.

When exactly did Stussy start using this in their logo? ScratchMarshall (talk) 21:33, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
 * ScratchMarshall Never. They never used it. 76.19.64.20 (talk) 12:02, 19 August 2019 (UTC)


 * I had a friend that used to draw it a lot in school in the early 1990s (definitely before 1997, probably 1995), and he called it the "Stussy S". So, I'm certain it's true that it was called that many years before YouTube. However, this is just my own anecdote, so good luck finding a usable citation. :S - Rainwarrior (talk) 00:50, 15 December 2022 (UTC)


 * I'm pretty sure I saw it on Stussy merch in a skateboard shop in I think the very early 90s. I've called it the Stussy S since then. I've never been able to find an online source to confirm it though. Maybe in old physical skateboard magazines from that time period. 142.188.28.165 (talk) 04:44, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Should we add LEMMiNO's sources for this article?
I think that we should add LEMMiNO's sources for this article because there's more information in his video about the Cool S. Here's his website about the Cool S or Universal S: https://www.lemmi.no/post/the-universal-s

Emotioness Expression (talk) 06:00, 13 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Yes I think we should add LEMiNO's thing. It is credible, probably. TheFirstVicar4 (talk) 13:48, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
 * No: it is an WP:SPS by a non-expert. Veverve (talk) 17:22, 11 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, doesn't matter if he's an expert or not. His research seems to be credible and well referenced. Britannic16 (talk) 02:10, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Credible to whom? It is WP:OR to state this, Wikipedia users are not reliable sources. Veverve (talk) 15:28, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Said person is not a Wikipedia user, He is a YouTuber. Erfanyoosefian89 (talk) 16:45, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
 * First, I pointed out that simply stating "X is reliable" is in this case pure WP:OR from the Wikipedia user.
 * Second, independent Youtube videos are not reliable because they are just WP:SPSs. Veverve (talk) 21:07, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes. His research could be trusted. Erfanyoosefian89 (talk) 16:45, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
 * On what grounds is he a WP:RS? Veverve (talk) 21:03, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Earlier variation of the cool S
Not exactly it, but pretty close! https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Ce_est_ung_tractat_de_la_noble_art_de_leguille_ascavoir_ouvraiges_de_spaigne_(1527_af) NarF snw (talk) 13:43, 16 June 2023 (UTC)


 * This page:
 * https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ce_est_ung_tractat_de_la_noble_art_de_leguille_ascavoir_ouvraiges_de_spaigne..._page_11_(recto)_MET_DP355627.jpg#mw-jump-to-license NarF snw (talk) 13:45, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
 * WP:OR, WP:NOTFORUM. Veverve (talk) 14:12, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Mechanical Graphics (1890)
https://thesthing.com/blogs/news/1890-mechanical-graphic-frederick-newton-willson "Some claim a very close similarity whilst others claim the S is too rounded or flat. Whilst you can argue that there are certainly 6 lines to start off this particular S, we're not so convinced this specific design is closer than others we have discovered at different stages of the timeline. What is more apparent to this story, is Frederick Willson was a pioneer of graphical lettering and his expert influence was a driving force during the early 1900's. One can certainly dream up a scenario where the professor dedicated times in his lesson to teach his students how to draw 'the S' (his S) and perhaps that started off a ripple effect that tapped into the addictive nature of drawing it. But to say it was THE origin of 'The S' is a big stretch." — OttoMäkelä (talk) 12:48, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

The Ambassadors - Hans Holbein the Younger - Oil on Oak (1533)
We see a well defined image of this symbol in an oil painting from 1533. | The Ambassadors (Google Arts & Culture) 24.152.210.234 (talk) 18:53, 26 July 2023 (UTC)


 * WP:OR. Veverve (talk) 19:49, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

Restoring the page without fixing anything
you have restored an old version of the article, and by doing this you have added back the problems that had been previously fixed.
 * "The Ambassadors" thing is OR
 * Alamy stock image interpretation is OR
 * An SPS (Wångstedt, David/LEMMiNO) is not a WP:RS
 * WP:BLOGs (row.oneblockdown.it) are not WP:RS
 * Primary sources (in this case, Vimeo and YouTube videos) are not acceptable sources, especially since it used for an user-made interpretation (OR)
 * "However, the shape is not technically a Möbius strip as it has two sides.": again, a violation of WP:BURDEN
 * WP:TRIVIA should be avoided

Your changes should be rolled back. Please do so, per WP:BRD. Veverve (talk) 07:29, 31 July 2023 (UTC)


 * I will revert those changes. However, instead of leaving them gone, please help me get this information on Wikipedia in a way that you find acceptable. Also please get another experienced editor’s opinion on your issues with this article. Some of them seem like WP:WL to me (such as needing a secondary source for the fact that a still-existing video was uploaded to youtube and vimeo, not accepting Lemino’s video as a source although it’s all well-sourced, and not accepting the easily verifiable statement that the Cool S is not a Mobius strip). You’ve said before that “others have removed [this material] for good reason”, but looking at the page history and talk page I can’t find anyone who’s removed information or supported removing information except you. Furthermore, the Cool S is a simple geometric symbol, like the Swastika, Triskelion, Quatrefoil, Solomon's knot, Hexagram etc, so it would be expected to appear in different cultures and time periods, and such instances should at least be mentioned (as they are on those pages). So please invite an experienced editor, preferably an inclusionist one, so we can have a WP:Third opinion on whether all this information should be removed. I💖平沢唯  (talk) 12:17, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
 * help me get this information on Wikipedia in a way that you find acceptable: WP:BURDEN is on you, not me; that is how it goes. And currently you are infringing this policy.
 * please invite an experienced editor, preferably an inclusionist one, so we can have a WP:Third opinion on whether all this information should be removed: it is BRD, not BD-and-fetch-me-a-third-opinion-if-you-disagree. Moreover, I do not think any editor can defend you adding OR, using non-WP:RS, OR interpretating stock images, videos and paintings, and violating BURDEN (you do not seem to realise that the fact in your justification you did not provide any source but instead wrote an original "it would be expected" defense of your unsourced addition proves they are OR)
 * One last time: per BRD, please revert your additions. Thanks for reverting your changes! Veverve (talk) 12:34, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I share Veverve's concerns about OR and editor interpretation. I'm not seeing that anything disastrous will happen if we require that content be cited to reliable, secondary sources. One small thing: I think we should remove the quoted line about the "Moebius strip". It's mentioned briefly by one source, and I think the objections here are reasonable. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 12:42, 31 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Can I at least return the “In popular culture” part? What’s wrong with that one? I💖平沢唯  (talk) 00:18, 1 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't advise it. See MOS:POPCULT. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 00:48, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

"S thing" listed at Redirects for discussion
The redirect [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=S_thing&redirect=no S thing] has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at  until a consensus is reached. Veverve (talk) 21:17, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

"Skater S" listed at Redirects for discussion
The redirect [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Skater_S&redirect=no Skater S] has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at  until a consensus is reached. Veverve (talk) 21:18, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

"Pointy S" listed at Redirects for discussion
The redirect [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pointy_S&redirect=no Pointy S] has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at  until a consensus is reached. Veverve (talk) 21:19, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

"Sloan S" listed at Redirects for discussion
The redirect [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sloan_S&redirect=no Sloan S] has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at  until a consensus is reached. Veverve (talk) 21:20, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

"Graffiti S" listed at Redirects for discussion
The redirect [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Graffiti_S&redirect=no Graffiti S] has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at  until a consensus is reached. Veverve (talk) 21:22, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

"Stussy S" listed at Redirects for discussion
The redirect [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Stussy_S&redirect=no Stussy S] has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at  until a consensus is reached. Veverve (talk) 21:28, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

"Super S Stussy" listed at Redirects for discussion
The redirect [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Super_S_Stussy&redirect=no Super S Stussy] has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at  until a consensus is reached. Veverve (talk) 21:29, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

"Middle School S" listed at Redirects for discussion
The redirect [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Middle_School_S&redirect=no Middle School S] has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at  until a consensus is reached. Veverve (talk) 21:30, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Is the "S" in the Trapstar logo similar enough to the Cool S to be mentioned in this article?
Recently I noticed that the "S" in the logo for Trapstar, a British clothing brand looks quite similar to the Cool S. When I first saw it I actually thought it was and I think this potential use of the Cool S should be mentioned in the article somewhere.

See https://uk.trapstarlondon.com/ for images of this logo. Owo1000 (talk) 03:35, 8 June 2024 (UTC)


 * WP:BURDEN; WP:OR. Veverve (talk) 07:59, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Ah ok. Thanks. Owo1000 (talk) 22:25, 8 June 2024 (UTC)