Talk:Cord Meyer

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The 2009 film "An American Affair" is a fictionalized version of the story.

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Banchang (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 03:19, 23 May 2010 (UTC).

Veracity of Hunt's allegations
The following was cut from the article with the edit summary, "Article does not cite this. Intentional fabrication to support false POV.":
 * The two sons alleged that their father cut the information from his memoirs, "American Spy: My Secret History in the CIA, Watergate and Beyond", to avoid possibly perjury charges.[13] According to Hunt's widow and other children, the two sons took advantage of Hunt's loss of lucidity by coaching and exploiting him for financial gain.[13]

The article does support these statements. This is what the LA Times source states:
 * That information was cut from the memoir, the brothers say, because Hunt's attorney warned he could face perjury charges if he recanted sworn testimony.

...and...
 * Hunt's widow and her two children, 27-year-old Austin and 23-year-old Hollis, dismiss the brothers' story, saying it is the result of coaching an old man whose lucidity waxed and waned in his final months.
 * Kevan bitterly accuses her brothers of "elder abuse," saying they pressured their father for dramatic scenarios for their own financial gain. Hunt's longtime lawyer, Bill Snyder, says: "Howard was just speculating. He had no hard evidence."

Far from "intentional fabrication to support false POV", this appears to rephrase very accurately what was quoted in a reputable newspaper. I am restoring the paragraph, but will seek additional opinions on this. Location (talk) 21:53, 14 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Look at the source. It's not "rephrasing," it's intentional fabrication to support POV.Blindjustice (talk) 19:03, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
 * The source is the Los Angeles Times. I've posted the text from that source and I've posted the Wikipedia text. Which part do you think is fabrication? Location (talk) 19:47, 19 February 2013 (UTC)
 * An attempt to find the word 'perjury' in the cited Los Angeles Times article resulted in "no matches found."
 * An attempt to find the word 'lucidity' in the cited Los Angeles Times article resulted in "no matches found."
 * An attempt to find the word 'inconclusive' in the cited Los Angeles Times article resulted in "no matches found."
 * An attempt to find 'Bill Snyder' in the cited Los Angeles Times article resulted in "no matches found."
 * The reason these words are not found is they are part of an intentional fabrication to support a false POV. Rather than attempts to "rephrase very accurately what was quoted," they are of the nature of "black is white," and "up is down;" i.e., the "Big Lie."Blindjustice (talk) 02:33, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
 * No, the reason that you did not find them is that you did not bother to click on page 2. Don't bother with an apology. Location (talk) 02:52, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Veracity of Hunt's allegations, Part 2
The following, in bold, was added to the article with the edit summary, "The heart of the Rollingstone article is that Johnson ordered the assassination of JFK and choose Meyer to organize it."
 * Allegedly, Lyndon B. Johnson ordered the assassination and choose Meyer to organize it. Meyer was chosen because of his hatred of Kennedy, who had an extended extramarital affair with Meyer's ex-wife, Mary Pinchot Meyer. In the April 5, 2007 issue of Rolling Stone, Howard St. John Hunt described E. Howard Hunt's deathbed confession which detailed a number of individuals purported to be implicated by his father including Meyer, as well as Lyndon B. Johnson (who ordered the assassination and choose Meyer to organize it,) David Sánchez Morales, David Phillips, Frank Sturgis, Lucien Sarti, and William Harvey.

This is what the Rolling Stone source states:
 * E. Howard scribbled the initials "LBJ," standing for Kennedy's ambitious vice president, Lyndon Johnson. Under "LBJ," connected by a line, he wrote the name Cord Meyer. Meyer was a CIA agent whose wife had an affair with JFK; later she was murdered, a case that's never been solved. Next his father connected to Meyer's name the name Bill Harvey, another CIA agent; also connected to Meyer's name was the name David Morales, yet another CIA man and a well-known, particularly vicious black-op specialist. And then his father connected to Morales' name, with a line, the framed words "French Gunman Grassy Knoll."

...and...
 * Later that week, E. Howard also gave Saint two sheets of paper that contained a fuller narrative. It starts out with LBJ again, connecting him to Cord Meyer, then goes on: "Cord Meyer discusses a plot with [David Atlee] Phillips who brings in Wm. Harvey and Antonio Veciana. He meets with Oswald in Mexico City. . . . Then Veciana meets w/ Frank Sturgis in Miami and enlists David Morales in anticipation of killing JFK there. But LBJ changes itinerary to Dallas, citing personal reasons."

According to the article, St. John Hunt has alleged that E. Howard Hunt drew a line connecting LBJ to Meyer. The article does not state that Hunt alleged that Meyer organized a plot, nor does it state that Hunt alleged that Meyer was chosen because of his hatred of JFK. This has been removed per WP:UNSOURCED. Also, the veracity of this as a "deathbed confession" is disputed by other sources, so this has been removed per WP:REDFLAG. Location (talk) 16:24, 18 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Pictogram voting comment.png 3O Response: Looking at the RS article, it seems that it does state that Meyer organised the plot. "... according to E. Howard Hunt. LBJ had Kennedy killed....Later that week, E. Howard also gave Saint two sheets of paper that contained a fuller narrative." Clearly that fuller narrative pertains to the Kennedy assassination. That narrative "starts out with LBJ again, connecting him to Cord Meyer, then goes on [to introduce other players including the assassins]". Mark Marathon (talk) 00:53, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
 * The article doesn't explicitly state that LBJ asked Meyer to organise the plot, but that is the only reasonable reading that I can find. If Meyer wasn't organising the plot, then why is LBJ being connected to him relevant, and why was he bringing in the assassins who carried out the the plot? Perhaps it would help if you cold tell us what alternative reading you find in the statement that the full narrative of the plot started with LBJ and connected him with Meyer, who brought in other players including the assassins? I agree, it never says, or even implies, that Meyer was chosen because of any personal hatred, and that should be removed. The bulk of the material should remain in the article. It doesn't meet Red Flag status because essentially the same material is covered by RS and the LA Times article, so it's not a single source. It's also not a particularly extraordinary claim because it's just a claim that the allegation has been made by the sons. The article isn't stating that they are true, just that they have been made. Personally, I think it's a load of BS cooked up by a couple of of junkies, but the policy is veriiability, not truth. It's verifiable that the allegations have been made.  If they are disputed by other sources, then we should include those refutations, not remove it altogetherMark Marathon (talk) 00:53, 20 February 2013 (UTC)


 * The justifacation for the removal of factual material is: 'the veracity of this as a "deathbed confession" is disputed by other sources.' Not even a single source is given, let alone 'other sources.'Blindjustice (talk) 02:47, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Did you bother to click on page 2? And the reviews of Hunt's memoirs released just after his death indicate that various sources thought he was blowing smoke. Location (talk) 03:03, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Mark Marathon, the extraordinary part of the claim is that this was a deathbed confession and not the rant of a senile old man with a reputation for blowing smoke. I don't have a problem with the rest. I'm OK with the LBJ-Meyer connection if a neutrally worded statement can be worked out. Location (talk) 03:09, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Veracity of C. David Heymann's allegations
I have removed the following per WP:REDFLAG, WP:UNDUE, and WP:RS:
 * Writer C. David Heymann in The Georgetown Ladies' Social Club (2003) told of Meyer's response when, near the end of his life, he was asked to comment on his wife's still unsolved murder case:
 * Meyer held court at the beginning of February 2001 - six weeks before his death - in the barren dining room of a Washington nursing home. Propped up in a chair, his glass eye bulging, he struggled to hold his head aloft. Although he was no longer able to read, the nurses supplied him with a daily copy of The Washington Post, which he carried with him wherever he went. "My father died of a heart attack the same year Mary was killed," he whispered. "It was a bad time." And what could he say about Mary Meyer? Who had committed such a heinous crime? "The same sons of bitches," he hissed, "that killed John F. Kennedy."[13] 

It appears as though Heymann claimed he was told that, and Heymann had "a reputation for not letting the facts stand in the way of a good story". Location (talk) 03:53, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

External links modified
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