Talk:Cordwainer Smith/Archive 1

Orson Scott Card reference
I've removed the following here for discussion. I honestly don't see the relevance to Cordwainer Smith. Scott has never claimed Smith's Shayol as an influence in A Planet Called Treason, and without that I don't see that it's a relevant link.


 * The punishment world of Shayol (cf. Sheol), where criminals are punished by the regrowth and harvesting of their organs for transplanting (see also A Planet Called Treason by Orson Scott Card).

Ken talk 03:42, September 11, 2005 (UTC)


 * Related to this, I removed a link referencing Robert Jordan's Shayol Ghul as well. Unless such references can be attributed to Cordwainer, rather than Sheol, they should not go here. - BanyanTree 02:44, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Name of article
I have reverted User:BanyanTree's move on July 17 of this article from Cordwainer Smith to Paul Myron Anthony Linebarger. Wikipedia policy is to use common names, and there is no doubt that Cordwainer Smith is far more common than Paul Myron Anthony Linebarger, by an entire order of magnitude, as the following Google hits attest:


 * "Cordwainer Smith" - 34,500
 * "Paul Myron Anthony Linebarger" - 1190
 * "Paul Linebarger" - 673

A comparable case is Mark Twain; the article is at Mark Twain, not Samuel Clemens. Most pages linking here are also going to link to Cordwainer Smith, not Paul Myron Anthony Linebarger.

&mdash;Lowellian (talk) 03:48, July 26, 2005 (UTC)


 * I concur. For another example, see James Tiptree, Jr; another science fiction author who published under a pen name and whose true identity was hidden for the majority of her career. grendel|khan 13:58, July 26, 2005 (UTC)


 * This is more of a comment, but Linebarger is quite clearly notable outside of science fiction while, looking at her article, it doesn't appear that Tiptree is. Similarly, Twain was the persona by which the world knew Clemens, while Linebarger was prominent in addition to, and not because, of Smith.  It may just be me, but I find Linebarger the person to be much more interesting that Smith the writer, or at least what little I remember of his short stories is much more interesting when you look at the person.  That said, I am not particularly fussed either way.  BTW, a list of fiction would be useful if anyone is feeling motivated... Cheers,   BanyanTree 16:28, 26 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Whether Linebarger is more "interesting" as Linebarger or Smith is subjective, and furthermore, irrelevant to titling the page. Linebarger was notable as Linebarger, but he was more notable and well-known as Smith. Under Wikipedia's naming conventions, that's what matters as far as the Wikipedia title is concerned. &mdash;Lowellian (talk) 05:08, July 27, 2005 (UTC)


 * His case is unusual though because there are people who are more interested in Linebarger then in Cordwainer. My University has, I think, three books on Linebarger but I'm not sure they have any by Cordwainer. Kind of an odd case. I'm tempted to suggest a segment for his work as Linebarger or maybe an expansion from the section that just lists his non-fiction works.--T. Anthony 23:24, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

The Kirk Allen story
I added a brief paragraph about recent articles suggesting that Linebarger was a prototype for psychologist Robert Lindner's famous fantasy-prone personality. I think it would be a mistake to turn this into a major focus of the article on Linebarger since it's all still pretty speculative. It would only serve to distract from the very real achievements of Linebarger as a writer, scholar and patriot. Further comment on Kirk Allen properly belongs in an article on Lindner, who has not yet, alas, been wikified.--dking, 05 April 2006
 * I think you have put this topic in exactly the right proportion, dking.
 * On the one hand, the idea that Linebarger was "Kirk Allen" (or a large part of a composite "Allen") is extremely plausible, seems to explain much that is so interesting about Linebarger's science fiction, and therefore has been of great interest to the author's fans for at least forty years. The theory unquestionably deserves mention in this article.
 * But on the other hand, pending confirmation from the estates of Linebarger or Lindner (not likely to come from either), the story remains mere speculation. Even if we had confirmation, Lindner's account is clearly fictionalized to a large degree. Without knowing what parts have been changed to protect Linebarger's identity (or for other reasons), it would be irresponsible and sensationalistic to go into a big summary of the early sex life and subsequent mental problems of "Kirk Allen" here.
 * But I do have some reservations about your lead-in: "Lee Weinstein and Alan Elms have proposed that Linebarger was a prototype for ' Kirk Allen ' ". Firstly, without real links or at least occupational epithets, Weinstein and Elms are just names without authority, not much better than "Some have proposed." Secondly, the phrase (and the footnote dating Weinstein's paper to 2001) is likelly to mislead many readers into thinking Weinstein and Elms originated the theory, and recently, when in fact the rumor has been current among science fiction fans since at least the 1960s. I will shortly do a minor edit to deal with these small problems.
 * LATER: Done and done. 66.241.73.241 10:07, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Links to Story/Novel Pages
I noticed that the numerous Wikipedia pages on Smith's individual stories aren't linked to this one. This urgently needs to be done so that they aren't free-floating. --Varenius 03:37, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Now done. I took the story list from The Rediscovery of Man page, stripping off a few unlinked and lesser-known stories to reduce length. Now we just need to work on those story pages! --Varenius 03:58, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Nice work. - BT 13:40, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Chinese characters
An anon who made otherwise good edits took out the Chinese characters 林白楽 for Smith's name. These are taken from the Japanese wiki version, who I imagine would have a better idea. The characters given are, roughly, wood-white-joy, which seem to fit. I have readded the characters. - BT 14:10, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

CS inventions
He also invented bird and mouse brained robots, and cats (lost c'mel, dead lady of clown town, etc) used as attack partners or part of an attack system (game of cat and dragon) Sean —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.189.135.36 (talk) 02:08, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Neologisms and manshonyaggers
I'm trying to figure out what to do with the sixth bullet under "Science fiction writing":

"Early works in the timeline include neologisms such as manshonyagger which are not explained to any great extent, but serve to produce an atmosphere of strangeness. These words are usually derived from corruptions non-English words. For instance, manshonyagger resembles the German words 'menschen' meaning, in some senses, 'men' or 'mankind', and 'jaeger', meaning a hunter. Manshonyaggers roam the wild lands between the walled cities, suggesting that they are creatures or machines designed to hunt humans."

The difficulty is that "manshonyagger" is not the best example of an unexplained neologism: the story |"Mark Elf" explains the manshonyaggers pretty thoroughly, discussing the name's etymology, describing what they look like, making it clear that they're machines rather than creatures and even getting into their specific programmed purpose. "Mark Elf" is from 1957, according to this; I can think of one other story, "The Queen of the Afternoon," that mentions manshonyaggers in slightly less detail--but that's a later story. So hmmm. Even if there's a pre-1957 story that uses the word (and I can't think of one), and even if that story is vague as to description and etymology as suggested in the bullet. . . well, even then a bit of revision's probably called for. Or am I not getting something? Iralith (talk) 23:34, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Ah, OK, I see. They're mentioned in "Scanners Live in Vain" (as "Manshonjaggers") much more vaguely--that's an earlier-published story than "Mark Elf," so it is indeed the case that our first encounter with them is strange, unexplained, etc. I'm still trying to figure out if there's a clearer way to put things in that bullet. For one thing, "in the timeline" isn't quite right--"Scanners Live in Vain" is an older story, but "Mark Elf" is earlier "in the timeline" of the shared Instrumentality universe. Iralith (talk) 00:53, 5 February 2008 (UTC)


 * In "Mark Elf" they're called both manshonyagger and Menschenjäger, which is the German spelling (meaning "people-hunter(s)", "hunter(s) of humans", sometimes with the English plural ending -s (the German word is the same in singular and plural. The wise Middle-Size Bear, an underman in the later terminology, makes the connection explicit:
 * Said the bear in perfect German, "... You have stopped a Menschenjäger very mysteriously. For the first time in my own life I can see into a German mind and see that the word manshonyagger should really be Menschenjäger, a hunter of men."
 * In "The Queen of the Afternoon", which comes next in story sequence, they are "manshonyaggers". Anonymous revision #414689021 changed manshonjagger to manshonyagger, but the "y" spelling seems to be more commonly used. I'm undoing that edit, with a link to this talk section. --Thnidu (talk) 03:56, 23 March 2011 (UTC)


 * References

Possible coining of the computer term "Instant Message"
On page 95 in chapter eight of the 1975 Pyramid Books paperback edition of "The Planet Buyer" originally published in 1964, appears:

"How much money have I got?" said Rod Angry John Fisher cut in: "So much that the computers are clotted up, just counting it. About one and a half stroon years. Perhaps three hundred years of Old Earth total income. You sent more Instant Messages last night than the Commonwealth government itself has sent in the last twelve years. These messages are expensive. One kilocredit FOE money."

Is this a possible first appearance of the term "instant message"? K8 fan 06:04, 14 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Maybe. On the other hand, one can find earlier similar phrases like "There is no time for the modern motorist to read even the briefest of words, hence the age of the instant message." in The Private Library. --Gwern (contribs) 00:34 16 July 2007 (GMT)

In Norstrilia, an "instant message" is an interplanetary hyperspace communication which is fabulously expensive (and which few private individuals other than the inhabitants of Norstrilia could ever hope to afford to send). Not much in common with the current computing concept... AnonMoos 03:39, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Anthony Lewis (Upcoming events, back page Analog) used ARRBlvd as a fanzine title for many years. The Instant Message, IIRC, was one of his ways of both referencing/Honoring CS, and may have spread the use farther through-out fandom. Sean —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.189.135.36 (talk) 02:12, 31 January 2008 (UTC)


 * NESFA "publishes a regular newsletter called Instant Message. It has been coming out at least since 1971.
 * File 770: news of science fiction fandom: Posts tagged NESFA provides at least two reference points for date and number of issues of Instant Message:
 * Instant Message #819 on or about June 12th, 2009
 * Instant Message #796 on or about February 20th, 2008
 * The difference between issue numbers is 819-796 = 23. The difference between dates is 478 days, = 68 weeks (rounded down). 68/23 = 2.95652174. So is Instant Message published every three weeks, on the average? If so, then 796 issues 45 years 9 months, and Feb. 20, 2008 - 45yr 9mo  May 20, 1962. These admittedly very rough and guessworky calculations place the origin of the fanzine within two years (prior, it is true) of the publication of "The Boy Who Bought Old Earth" (the story that became The Planet Buyer) in Galaxy, April 1964. A little leeway in the numbering or timing -- yet to be established -- could document a close and plausible coincidence in time. --Thnidu (talk) 05:06, 23 March 2011 (UTC)


 * References

Testing new section button
Just want to see where this ends up... --Mirokado (talk) 21:55, 23 October 2011 (UTC) Indeed; the only surprising effect of playing with section-heading levels that i know of is when at least one section has only deeper levels preceding it; i think that the headings look as expected, but the ToC entries preceding the (surprisingly) parentless section are shown as highest-level-used despite the later discovery that later levels don't stay as deep. --Jerzy•t 06:15, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
 * It ended up at the end of the page even with level one headings. --Mirokado (talk) 22:53, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Where level one is the top of the hierarchy, and there is no level zero? I.e., level two is the default (implied by the + tab setting up for a "== Your title here ==" no matter what has gone before), right?