Talk:Cork (city)/Archive 1

Question
Why does Limerick have a far better article than Cork? Ludraman | Talk 21:23, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)


 * It's improving - I added a lot (not comprehensive but a start). Also someone added a culture section and good external links. Zoney 13:20, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * Face it, Limerick is just a better city :-) Seabhcan 10:57, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * Because Cork people are lazy, unfortunately. dahamsta 01:00, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Photos
We need a photograph or two of Cork!!! Patrick Street? Grand Parade? The view from a bridge in the city? Cork Opera House? The Jack Lynch Tunnel? The docklands? Zoney 13:20, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)

There's already a photo of the Lee on the page, but I live in the city center if there really is demand for more photos. Dahamsta


 * Yes! More photos please! A view from the north bank on Patrick street would be nice. (What's it called up there? St. Particks' hill?) Wijker 21:50, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

There's a photo of City Hall at night if you want to use it. Not au fair with linking images yet. --dahamsta 14:26, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)


 * Feel free to use images from http://corkspace.com content is published under a creative commons license.


 * Chanel Photo?
 * What does is this photo intended to illustrate? That Chanel is available in Cork City shops? Seems a bit pointless - no? (Chanel merchandise is available globally)
 * I expect this section of the article would be much better served with a photo of the redeveloped Patrick Street area, highlighting the (expected) impact to city centre trading. Are there any appropriate (public) photos of the area that might provide for a suitable replacement to this pic? Guliolopez 19:50, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Well some one reomoved that photo, and i suppose it was replaced with the apple logo, which i removed. Ok so Aplle has it's Euro HQ in Cork, but it mention of such is no more then any other of the companies mentioned, so i dont see how the apple logo is any more warented then say logo for Murph'y or Beamish logo, which are more irish then apple. I could see if iwas a picture of an apple stor in the city, if their is one, or of the HQ or something, but the logo, umm no. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 07:13, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Page move
City article moved here, see Talk:Cork (disambiguation). Main justification, what links to Cork more. zoney &#09827; talk 12:37, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Population
I don't know where the figure of 257,000 for the population of Greater Cork came from, but the census figures for Cork city and suburbs comes to 186,239 (2002 census, vol 1, table 5). BrendanH 15:40, Jan 27, 2005 (UTC)


 * I've restored my population figure of 186,239. This is based on the 2002 Census figures for Cork City plus its suburbs, as in Table 5, Volume 1 of the Census, http://www.cso.ie/census/documents/vol1_t5.pdf. I can't see any basis for the 250k+ figure. BrendanH 10:28, Feb 11, 2005 (UTC)

I'm sorry to say but that figure if 186,239 misses out on a lot of suburbs which although, are not technically part of Cork City, are no indistinguable from the City itself. Suburbs including, Glanmire, Douglas, Ballincollig, Little Island and Glounthane are all missing from this figure and in doing so doesn't give a correct population figure for the Greater Cork Area. A good average I've seen for this figure vary from 250,000 to 300,000 but the figure you quote of 186,239 is far too low for the Greater Cork Area. In fact, the Europa study stated a population for greater Cork of 231,000 in 1991. http://europa.eu.int/comm/regional_policy/urban2/urban/initiative/programmes/cork.html Here, the Education Ireland website states that the population of Greater Cork is around 300,000. http://www.educationireland.ie/htm/study_abroad/ucc.htm

I'm actually from Cork, a figure of 300,000 would prob be a good average. Although this also swells to more than 350,000 when other commuter towns are added in Niall123 19:00, Dec 08, 2005


 * I believe that we must be careful when quoting figures for cities, areas must be defineable so that the integrity of the figures can be retained. In Dublin this is less of an issue as apart from being relatively compact and over defined we have the Dublin Region and Greater Dublin Area which are clearly defined by law. Djegan 19:35, 9 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Djegan, the main problem is that as well, Dublin also doesn't have a defined area for its Greater Area. Its greater area is determined by the official city population plus other defined town councils including Finglas, Tallaght and other areas.  At the same time, townships of Glanmire, Douglas, Ballincollig, Glounthaune and Little Island are not being included in the Greater Cork area.  While all this "Greater Area" debate is all a particulars person's view, I just think that including such areas would be more representative of the Greater Cork Area on the whole.  Niall123 20:30, Dec 17, 2005 (UTC)

This article is about the city of Cork, that is, the area of the city as defined by the laws of Ireland. It is not about the city and its "suburbs"/"environs", therefore a figure of 123,062 is the only valid one as taken from the Census of 2002 as issued by the Central Statistics Office. We are not in the business of quoting higher figures because they make our county/city/town/etc seam more important. Djegan 21:27, 25 February 2006 (UTC)


 * WP policy is to go with common names and references, not with official names and definitions, as regards the titles for articles (and therefore to at least a degree conversely, the scope of the articles at those titles). What do people mean when they say "Cork city"?  For infobox purposes it does seem reasonable to go with the city boundary, if only because those are going to be the only "crisp" figures available.  OTOH the GCA is hardly an unnotable concept (,, , etc) but is probably not worth a separate article at present, so it's entirely reasonable to discuss it within the body of this article.  Alai 21:43, 25 February 2006 (UTC)


 * To expand my reasoning; the infobox should contain figures and facts that can be cited and sourced as neccessary (in fact this is a general requirement in any case, but i am not insisting that people go crazy in providing undeniable authoritive references). For instance their is no point in quoting an area figure and then quoting a population figure for an expanded (or different) area; that would be meaningless and contradictory in nature.
 * Regarding the (Greater) Cork Area i am not aware of any statutory basis for it, unlike for instance the Greater Dublin Area. However in principal i have nothing against its discussion in the article (until it merits its own) as long as its treated appropriate and not in a misleading or false way.
 * Djegan 22:06, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Agreed on all points. I think something's worth putting in, simply because the 180,000/200,000/250,000/pick a number figures are indeed commonly bandied around, and because the boundaries are by no means obvious or intuitive.  (I managed to live "outside Cork City" for several months without noticing.  No foolin'.)  But on a basis where it's clear what's being talked about, and the (lack of) solid statistics for it.  Equally, it should be made obvious what the basis for the "official boundary" figure is, for the sake of clarity and to forestall future flip-flops.  Alai 22:14, 25 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Certainly ambiguity over the boundaries of cities in the republic is a fair point, Limerick and Waterford seam to be equally ambigious. On a related point the most recent law i can find on the boundary of the City of Cork (then the County Borough of Cork) is the Local Government Provisional Order Confirmation Act, 1965. That law defines it purely in terms of how it would be surveyed or mapped without reference to the final area. Djegan 22:50, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't think the Metropolitan Cork figure should be included. The following is a quote from the CASP, "Redefinition of Metropolitan Cork: A key component of the overall strategy is the concept of Metropolitan Cork, which encompasses both the City proper, and the settlements of Ballincollig, Blarney, Carrigaline, Douglas, Glanmire, Glounthane, Carrigtwohill, Midleton and Cobh.". While I have no real problem including Douglas, Ballincollig or Glanmire in the population of the city, it is clear that Midleton and Cobh are separate entities in there own right. My preference is towards only including the two CSO figures (123,062 for the city council area; 186,239 for the city and suburbs) Irlchrism 10:49, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

I actually agree with the Metropolitan Cork figure and article being included. Yes, the boundaries of Cork city are definitive. While the official population of cork being 186,239 this does not nature of the whole metropolitan area as a whole. As we speek there are a number of dicussions going on about a land grab by Cork City Corporation from Cork County Council. Such a move would be the correct thing to do, especially considering such areas as Douglas, Glanmire, Ballincollig, Donnybrook, Rochestown, Curraheen are basically part of the city, with no clear distinguishable break between them and the city proper. Anyways, considering that Cork Corporation has put forward this document, then it is a valid document and deserves an article of its own and a mention on the Cork City article. Why not mentioning "Metropolitan Cork" eventhough numerous papers have been done on the subject is very strange .Niall123

Just to say that the 2006 Cencus regarding Cork is to be different to the previous ones. The CSO is after saying that the Metroplitan figure for cork is the figure which is going to be used as the population of the Greater Cork area. .Niall123

Port of Cork
For somewhere that boasts the 2nd largest natural harbour in the world(?) there really should be some mention of it in this entry at least. A dedicated Port of Cork entry would be better. Frelke 21:44, 12 July 2005 (UTC)


 * I've put in a big expansion of the Cork Harbour article today, if anyone would like to take a look and/or change it. It discusses the fortifications of the harbour and also adds a section on industries around the harbour. The industries could do with considerable improvement still.Irlchrism 16:57, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Colleges and Universities
An "endless list" of them? Come on now lads...

headings - see also, also see
I dont want to get into a edit war or anything but i think the correct heading is Also see. You can see examples here Ablaze 10:42, 5 September 2005 (UTC)


 * but the standard headings say "See also", including your example from the manual of style. Just about every other page says "See also". It also says, Do not vary the wording or capitalisation of these headings - Ali-oops&#9997; 11:18, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Yup! Your right there. I'm going to put that mistake from me down to a memory laps from lack of sleep :o) The Correct way is See also, i got confused when i saw it with a capital A in Also and thought someone changed it around. There are several articles that use Also see and from now on i'll be looking out for them! Thanks! Ablaze 12:42, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

History
There's a sentence in the history section "In 1825, over 1800 Irish residents depart from Cork to emigrate to Peterborough, Ontario, Canada assisted by Peter Robinson (who organized the scheme on behalf of the British Government). This results in the area known as "Scott's Plains" being renamed "Peterborough" as a tribute". This is more relevant to the history of Peterborough than Cork. I don't want to remove it without getting others opinions first though. The majority of the 1800 people were from the North -West corner of Co Cork--not from Cork city at all.

- I agree, it should either be moved or deleted. It really interrupts the flow of the article.


 * I've added an article on the History of Cork. Contributions, especially on the 18th and and 19th centuries and also pictures, are most welcome.
 * Jdorney 13:14, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Culture
"The local synagogue on South Terrace, near Shalom Park and the other traditional Jewish areas of the City like Monray Terrace attract large gatherings on a weekly basis." - I was under the impression that Cork's Jewish population had declined to the point where it is in single figures. Irlchrism 12:29, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

I've deleted the remark about the mark left by the Jews of Cork, and about the "Jewish Quarter". The mark they left is from the people, and since the initial edit we have mentioned three prominent individuals who contributed a lot to the city and its culture. But without having more specific detail behind it, I think the "Jewish Quarter" idea is a bit romantic. Yes, there was a particular area where most of them lived, and yes, there is still the synagogue, but the only thing remarkable about the area was that so many jews lived there. BrendanH 20:43, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Delisted GA
Hi. I have removed this article from the Good article listing due to the following:
 * No references. One of the GA criteria is that a reference section must be provided.  Inline citations are preferred but not required.  When this issue has been addressed, please feel free to re-nominate.  Thanks! Air.dance 04:06, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Thank you but we don't need to know about Roches Stores.

Proposed general "cleanup" changes
I see some value in making some small (but comprehensive) changes to article. However, wanted to allow for some discussion or comment before I effect changes.. (Don't want to make "one sided" revisions). Proposed changes are as below. Comments welcome. Guliolopez 19:07, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
 * 1) Remove "very" from the sentence: "or to feel they have a very distinct identity from the rest of Ireland." (POV/Unnecessary hyperbole)
 * 2) Summarise "Railway Heritage" and "Tramway heritage" sections. (Possibly more relevant in the "Transport" subsection and/or "History of Cork" article).
 * 3) Minor summary and reordering of "Places of Interest" section. Currently somewhat disjointed, & not as easy to read as it might be.
 * 4) Delete/reword the following (as is "not notable" and/or POV?): "In 2005, Smart Telecom also made Cork one of the first citywide high-speed Wi-Fi network in Europe. However, further examination of this rather misleading claim reveals that coverage consists of a paltry 1.5 sq kilometres, leaving citizens living or working only a few blocks outside of the very core of the city centre with no access to this network."
 * 5) Delete (POV and not relevant in context of article on the city): "(some consider leaving Co. Cork as being abroad owing to the vast size of the county which makes it rarely necessary to leave, and cultural and dialect differences)"
 * 6) Minor reword of section on "how Cork people view themselves". Reads somewhat POV, is quite generalist, and lacks references (in particular to what the "significant differences" are between Cork and other areas of the country.
 * 7) Delete (NN? / POV?): "Cork is home to ... many superb musicians including ... The Citadels" ("The Citadels" appear to be a very new band, and are likely NN as representatives of cork musical talent - at least, not yet)
 * 8) Delete (POV?): "Unlike other modern European cities, there are no rear exits on the bus, forcing all passengers to enter and exit through the same front door, further exacerbating the already inefficient system."
 * 9) Remove the following from "External Links":
 * "University College Cork", "Cork City FC", and "CIT" links. (Already links in body of article to relevant wikipedia articles.)
 * "Gay Youth Group - Cork's Gay Youth Group" (listed twice)
 * "Cork city becomes the first citywide high-speed Wi-Fi network in Europe community wireless network - Story from www.theregister.com" (Need to be careful linking "news stories" as they quickly become outdated/irrelevant)
 * "Liverpool's 'Nerve' magazine - An article on the Capital of Culture year". (Already several "Euro Cap Culture" related links - Also less relevant now that no longer ECC)
 * Given no comment or objection, have made the above changes. I still think that (per Article size) further summarisation (or bolder "culling") needs to be completed on much of the content. Including - possibly:
 * the comments on the "international restaurants" that are in Cork (there are international restaurants in most of the worlds larger cities - is this really worth mentioning),
 * the stuff about "nightlife" (which is a quite weak and doesn't add much value),
 * the "retail" section (do we really have to list every shopping centre),
 * the "cork airport" subsection (much of the content already in the main relevant article),
 * the commentary on the ins and outs of using buses in the city (including unreferenced and possibly POV commentary on how the lack of a 2nd exit "exacerbates an already slow system")
 * further summarisation on the "rail heritage" section (or just move most of it to History of Cork)
 * a serious cull of the "external link". (Seems to have more external links than most other articles.)
 * etc.
 * Guliolopez 18:04, 26 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I wonder if there is enough information in the railway and tramway heritage section to justify putting them into an article of their own? 195.73.119.90 17:57, 1 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Their is more than enough for a Transport in Cork article, or similar. New articles when substantial and informative (and encyclopedic) are always welcome. Djegan 18:30, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

List of 3rd level institutions in Cork
Am planning on removing list because: Guliolopez 11:07, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
 * 1) All but 2 of the institutions are already linked from the main body of the Education section (and so this separate "list" adds no additional information)
 * 2) There is no precedence for "lists" of this kind, either in the article itself, or in other articles of this type. (IE: There are no other "lists of X in Cork" in this article, or "lists of 3rd level institutions in Dublin/Limerick/etc" in those articles).
 * 3) This is an article which deals with Cork in general, and this list is too specifically related to education at third level. If this was an article about "Education in Cork" or "Third-level Education in Cork", then I could see a place for it. However, it is likely too specific for a general Cork article.
 * 4) Finally, this article is already too long per Article size, and so - in conjunction with each of the above am going to remove the list.


 * Agree, indeed those who want to "keep together" the relevant articles can help by categorising them in Category:Education in Cork.
 * Djegan 19:02, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Cork city disappearing !!!!
According to the newly released 2006 Census Preliminary report, the population of County Cork has increased from 447,000 to 480,000, whereas the population of Cork city has decreased rapidly from 123,000 to 119,000. Ultimately if this trend continues, there will be no more city. The city boundary must be extended again. The same must also be done to extend the Limerick city boundary. Both of these cities may lose out on vital EU funding because of this.


 * Well at least your honest on your agenda, but I think Cork and Limerick cities are here to stay. Djegan 19:20, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Cities in Ireland
Unfortunately it appears content (irrespective of quality) is now determined by straw votes, see Talk:Cities in Ireland. Comments welcome. Djegan 19:28, 4 August 2006 (UTC)


 * No. Its by consensus. The vote in question was purely to indicate consensus as you seemed to be saying that there was no consensus. BTW, have you read WP:SPAM? Frelke 07:59, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

External links, linkspam and link farming
Per notes from "Proposed general 'cleanup' changes" above, (and unless there are any objections), I'm going to engage in a serious "cull" of the "External links" section.

The External links section of Cork remains one of the largest on any page in WP, and seems to be used as an advertising "link farm" for every nighclub/pub/theatre/community group/gig guide in the city. The External links section (per my understanding of WP:EL, and per convention in similar city articles like London, Paris, Berlin, and even Dublin) is supposed to be used to link sources, reference "official sites", and generally support the wider topic.

It's not supposed to be used (per WP:EL) for links to blogs, to promote sites, or to link "off topic" sites only vaguely related to article content.

To that end, and unless there is justification otherwise, I plan to:
 * Consolidate the 3 separate links to the Official Corporation site http://www.corkcity.ie (redundant)
 * Remove the two links to blogs (fail WP:EL: promotion/blog)
 * Remove the links to the four "city of culture 2005" event sites (out of date/relevance to topic)
 * Remove all the links to Gig-guides/nightclubs/etc (fail WP:EL: promotion/relevance to topic)
 * Reduce the number of "maps" links (redundant)
 * And generally tidy up the "categories" (If we have to have categories we have too many links).

To ensure concencus, and in fear of being accused of blanking, I welcome any comments before I do this. Guliolopez 15:42, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Support. This section is way too long. Demiurge 15:50, 5 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Given no objections voiced, I have gone ahead and tidied much of the spam/redundancy/outofdate links from the External Links section. Frankly I think this could be reduced even further, but I am not WP:Bold enough. Guliolopez 13:33, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Well done! It looks a whole lot better - Alison&#9997; 17:01, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Still trying to learn the rules. I submitted cityofcork.com as a link but it was removed as irrelevant. It's my site but I believe it is relevant,appropriate and contains info about Cork community that can't be found elsewhere. Please advise. Squibs 16:09, 20 September 2006 (UTC)


 * OK Squibs - Welcome to Wikipedia - A good place to start for the guidelines around adding external links is at External links. Pay attention to the "What should be linked to" and "Links normally to be avoided" sections. A quick review of these guidelines might confirm for you why your link was removed.
 * The simplest point from these guidlines that I can point out to you is that "Links added for promotion of sites are not appropriate". Wikipedia is not set-up to promote sites or act as a linkfarm for "associated topics/sites". If an editor felt that the link to your site was added purely for promotion then that may explain its removal. (See also Spam). If you added your site for promotion then I would recommend that you instead look at the various resources on the web which give suggestions on marketing/promotion and improving ranking in search results.
 * In general only links to official sites which relate to the topic are considered appropriate. Hence the link to the official Corporation site, the official Port of Cork site, etc. Alternatively if the article references a source from an external site it may be appropriate to link it, or if the site contains more extensive reference material related to the topic.
 * Per the guidelines - even if the website is considered appropriate based on the above - it is not generally acceptable for the person who owns the site to post it. This is because of POV concerns.
 * Hope this answers your question. Guliolopez 18:24, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

I just purged three more external links. None seem to be of the quality expected for additional inoformation on Cork. A few very high quality or officvial sites sems to be the way to go. If people want community forums or photos then google is a great tool. David D. (Talk) 22:14, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Cork dialect and accent
"So" and "like" are used to end sentences in other parts of Co. Cork (I'm thinking of West Cork because I know that area, but I suspect the use is more widespread) and are therefore not limited to Cork City. I'm pretty sure "boy" is as well, but I remember the other two more clearly.

I remember high rising terminals being common, although someone else will need to verify that. In fact, if I am not mistaken, it is not uncommon forthe last syllable to consist of three tones in what musicologists would call a lower mordent.

I have often heard it said that the Cork accent sounds like a Welsh accent, although I find it hard to hear that myself. However I have been told that a good few Welsh people did settle in Cork, hence a number of Welsh surnames. Ireneshusband 09:31, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

I think the retail should be deleted as the information is not relevent. This is an encyclopedia not a shopping guide. There is nothing notable mentioned in this section that makes it any different to the retail in any other part of the country. I am trying to make this article look attractive. If it stays the way it is people will say " They just want me to see all the high street stores there is in Cork ". This is a way of influencing there decisions and to be honest I don't think it's right, especially when this is an encyclopedia we are contributing to. Anyone agree.--Candelwicke 19:22, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Sorry for my mistake. I only meant the retail section. Thank You. And just because it is a city I do not think it should be treated better. This section should be removed. Do you agree Djegan. Does anyone else agree. Sorry for being a nuisance, I thought I was helping. If it shouldn't be deleted I am disappointed, I thought it was not relevent....--Candelwicke 19:29, 3 October 2006 (UTC)