Talk:Cornelius Vanderbilt/Archive 1

Unclear Statement
It says "Vanderbilt avoided capture by those who sought to arrest him and impound the ship." Would someone with knowledge on this topic please clarify who wanted to arrest him, their reasons and how he escaped. Thanks in advance --Arnos78 (talk) 22:51, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I've rewritten the sentence in question. There were many episodes in which his competitors sought to have him arrested for violating their monopoly, not just one episode. Vanderbilt acquired a sort of "Robin Hood" reputation for the way he handled these... dressing in disguise; hiding in secret compartments in the Bellona; using his sister Charlotte as a decoy; threatening to sail with the constables to New Jersey (where they had no jurisdiction) and charging them for the passage; arranging to be on the payroll of a legitimate ferry company for a single day in which he permitted himself to be arrested - and then let go on this technicality. - Nunh-huh 01:51, 3 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the interesting info, I added your statement that Vanderbilt was violating the monopoly to explain why they were after him, the sentence is a bit wordy but I can't think of how to make it any better right now. --Arnos78 (talk) 14:32, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Formatting
Some of the formatting code is displayed instead of the output in the article. I'm running Firefox, don't know if that has anything to do with it, but, for example, I see:
 * align=left

- |width=35%

- |quote=If I had learned education, I would not have had time to learn anything else.

- |source=Cornelius Vanderbilt

- |}}

in the intro etc.

i haven't the technical skill to fix it myself. given that he's a bit famous, it might be important. Thanks. threedimes


 * I'm using Safari, and the quote boxes appear as they should in the article. Athaenara   talk  08:03, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Conflicting sources for "The public be damned" quote
Both Cornelius Vanderbilt and William Henry Vanderbilt are cited as the source of the "public be damned" quote. The page dealing with Cornelius briefly mentions William Henry before the quote, so perhaps it's just ambiguous. I'm under the impression that the quote originated from "Interview with William H. Vanderbilt, Chicago Daily News, October 9, 1882". If that's the case, then the quote should probably be removed from Cornelius' page.


 * In The American Pageant, it says: "His son, William H. Vanderbilt, when asked in 1883 about the discontinuance of a fast mail train, reportedly snorted, 'The public be damned!'"I hope that helps. Nonamer98 (talk) 16:53, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Commodore Vanderbilt?
Is this the Commodore Vanderbilt? I see no reference to it in the page and only one (unlinked) reference in the Vanderbilt family page nor any explanation of how he came by this title. Thanks! Ewlyahoocom 19:35, 6 October 2005 (UTC)


 * From what I've read, Cornelius got the name Commodore Vanderbilt when he took over most of the ferry lines between Manhattan and Staten island. You may have to look around to find a source, I found it flippin thru Google.


 * Commodore was a sobriquet (nickname) for Vanderbilt, it's not that he ever held that rank in naval service. I, too, found between 434 and over 34,000 hits depending on how I narrowed my syntax on the search engine.  Athaenara   talk  08:16, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

See Vanderbilt, Arthur T. Fortune's Children: The Fall of the House of Vanderbilt Perennial: 1989. page 7. I'll make sure the story and the reference are added.

Jay Gould?
Did Cornelius Vanderbilt really have a competition with Jay Gould? In other sources on the Internet, nothing is mentioned of Gould, and instead, a Daniel Drew is mentioned. Which is correct?


 * Jay Gould was on the Erie board at the time of the Erie War, so that was Vanderbilt's main quarrel with him although they had previously worked together. Vanderbilt had been friends with Drew for many years. From an early time in his steamboat career he and Drew had worked together (mostly by not interfering with each other) to both get as much traffic as possible. When Vanderbilt took to railroads he and Drew conflicted because Drew ran the steamboat line paralleling the Hudson River Railroad. Through a series of events too complicated to explain, they fought, and when Vanderbilt took control of the Central Railway he more or less took out Drew. One thing to remember about Vanderbilt is he quarreled with most people of note at one time or another. If you're interested in more, you should read The First Tycoon by T.J. Stiles, it's really fantastic. Sompom1 (talk) 03:18, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Poor Formatting/Overhaul Article
This format does not at all comply with the standard of Wikipedia. Needs rewrite/reformat. Rajb245 02:10, 17 October 2006 (UTC)


 * The format of this article is actually better than average. Maybe most of the improvement was after unregistered user Rajb245's comment.   Athaenara   talk  05:07, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Protected
Added an antivandal tag, this page gets vandalised alot for some unknown reason. Cosmic Larva 13:11, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Citing sources
The following three lines, one of them embedded/commented out in the text, have been in the Vanderbilt legacy section for months (years?) with no references backing them up:


 * "His public perception was that of a vulgar, mean-spirited man who made life miserable for everyone around him, including his family."


 * "He often said that women bought his stock because his picture was on the stock certificate."


 * "It was also said that he was little concerned about his passengers' safety, as he insulted George Westinghouse and his newly-invented air brakes while many accidents occurred on Vanderbilt's trains."

They've been there too long without verification to be credible. I've removed them and copied them here. If any editor believes they belong in the article and wants to put them back in, please locate and provide "citations to reliable sources to ensure verifiability" as per (Citing sources). — Athænara  ✉  02:35, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Cousin??
Could someone please specify what kind of cousin Cornelius married? i.e. First cousin, second cousin, third, etc. Because just saying, "Cousin" makes him sound really incest. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mossontoes (talk • contribs) 15:01, 9 March 2007 (UTC).

Sophia Johnson was his first cousin. Please reference Jerry Patterson's: The Vanderbilt's. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.92.1.188 (talk) 02:46, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

By the sounds of it, a very distant cousin: http://www.library.vanderbilt.edu/speccol/vrr/tales.shtml rwjohnst  —Preceding comment was added at 21:00, 28 November 2007 (UTC)


 * His second wife, Frank Armstrong Crawford, was his first cousin twice removed, the great-granddaughter of his mother’s brother, Jacob Hand. And first cousins marry all the time, so really, people who are offended by first cousin marriages just need to get over it. I think the nature of his relationship to his first wife is less well-defined, with some people saying she was also a first cousin. I have the feeling the identity of her mother is uncertain. - Nunh-huh 21:07, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Thomas Gibbons
The link to Thomas Gibbons is incorrect. The correct Thomas Gibbons is a three time mayor of Savannah, GA, lawyer, and plantation owner. I don't believe there is currently an article referring to him. The correct Thomas Gibbons has a brief biography at the following link: Drew University Gibbons Bio

Adam's son
User:Esrever pointed out the (erroneous) assertion that "Adams's son was killed in the [November 11, 1833 train] accident." by asking for a citation. I've removed it; as Esrever probably expected, the assertion is wrong. John Quincy Adams had three sons and one daughter. Of the sons, one had died at sea in 1829, one died in October 1834, and the last in 1886. - Nunh-huh 23:31, 16 January 2009 (UTC)


 * You assign me better motives than I actually had. :) Prior to my adding a fact tag, there had been a commented-out note about a dead link; I just added a more visible notice. Thanks for doing the necessary research to get the error removed from the article entirely. Cheers! Esrever (klaT) 01:21, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Major Overhaul Required
This article needs some serious revamping. The coverage is uneven, with a lot about his ancestry and early days and very little on his oceanic steamship lines or even his railroads, which he's best known for. There are hardly any sources cited. At least one of the claims sounds really suspicious to me, that the roof of Grand Central collapsed the day Vanderbilt died. I checked the New York Times, which is available back to 1851 online, and there's no mention of that, which would have been a big story.

Overall, the article comes across as amateurish. A big rewrite is due. —Chronomonitor —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chronomonitor (talk • contribs) 04:39, 20 March 2009 (UTC)


 * So fix it. Esrever (klaT) 04:13, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Citation for the roof collapse inserted. However, the New York Times features an article saying that the collapse occurred on 12 January 1877, so I suspect the date has been "improved" by moving it up a week to coincide more exactly with the Commodore's death. - Nunh-huh 08:00, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm going to undertake a major overhaul of this entry, in light of the exhaustive biography recently published (T.J. Stiles, The First Tycoon: The Epic Life of Cornelius Vanderbilt). I want to give fair warning that I'm going to take out the references to Edward J. Renehan Jr's Commodore. Stiles raises some very serious questions about Renehan's book, and whether it's based on real sources or not. This business about the collapse of the train shed roof is a small point, but it's in keeping with the bigger problems Stiles writes about. Renehan moved up the date of the collapse of the train shed by more than a week to coincide with the Commodore's death, and didn't even give a source for it. That kind of nonsense doesn't belong in a Wikipedia entry. - Chronomonitor (talk) 19:13, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Wrong date
In the "Grand Central Depot" section it says "In October 1998, Vanderbilt struck up a partnership...". That is obviously a wrong date. What should it be? 1868? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.12.121.254 (talk) 23:23, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
 * random vandalism, it's corrected now. - Nunh-huh 23:38, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

Bad citation style
The citations in this are atrociously redundant. I would strongly suggest replacing the first occurrence of the most-cited work (the biography on which most of this article is based), with, and replacing every subsequent citation to the same source with. —  SMcCandlish  &#91;talk&#93; &#91;cont&#93; ‹(-¿-)› 10:36, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Collins Line
From the article: Vanderbilt eventually drove the Collins Line into extinction.

This is an extremely dubious claim. The Collins Line was financially ruined by the loss of two of its four steamships. The cost of running the line was also exorbitant, requiring subsidies from the U.S. government to compete with Cunard. I have never read that Vanderbilt had anything to do with the demise of the Collins Line, in fact, as I understand it, Vanderbilt's foray into transatlantic steam navigation was even more of a flop than Collins was plus with the former's ships being too slow to compete. I mean, has anyone ever heard of the famous Vanderbilt Line of transatlantic steamers? Neither have I. Cunard dominated the service, seeing off all comers until IIRC the coming of the White Star line. Gatoclass (talk) 17:21, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

File:Cornelius Vanderbilt Daguerrotype2.jpg to appear as POTD soon
Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:Cornelius Vanderbilt Daguerrotype2.jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on May 27, 2010. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2010-05-27. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page so Wikipedia doesn't look bad. :) Thanks!  howcheng  {chat} 20:44, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Potato Chip
This guy had something to do with the potato chip. so um, shouldnt there be sumtin there? 4 tidals Stuntman crow (talk) 22:56, 27 June 2010 (UTC)


 * According to The First Tycoon by T.J. Stiles, "A popular story attributes the invention of the potato chip to Vanderbilt... There is no truth to the tale." (Page 237) Sompom1 (talk) 03:25, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Edit request on 1 May 2012
Under "Descendants" there is a grammatical mistake in the second sentence. It currently reads: "Three of his daughters and son, Cornelius Jeremiah Vanderbilt, contested the will on the grounds that their father had was of unsound mind and under the influence of his son William Henry and of spiritualists he consulted on a regular basis." It is the "had was" that is the mistake in this sentence "that their father had was of unsound mind..." My suggested fix is to replace "was" with "been" as follows: "Three of his daughters and son, Cornelius Jeremiah Vanderbilt, contested the will on the grounds that their father had been of unsound mind and under the influence of his son William Henry and of spiritualists he consulted on a regular basis."

99.249.18.156 (talk) 04:46, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

Done Thanks for pointing it out. Rivertorch (talk) 06:49, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
 * It should read "was of unsound mind" - to say "had been of unsound mind" would imply that at some point he ceased to be of unsound mind. Rui &#39;&#39;Gabriel&#39;&#39; Correia (talk) 09:03, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

William Walker
A "military adventurer"? .... A euphemism so abhorrent and cynical it boggles the mind. Call a spade a spade. The man was a mercenary, a government contractor, a paid soldier occupying a conveniently murky legal gray area, pursuing the interests of North Atlantic diplomats and capitalists. To call him a "filibuster" or worse an "adventurer" is to spit in the face of all Nicaraguans. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.173.213.220 (talk) 00:23, 27 March 2013 (UTC)
 * So fix it. Esrever (klaT) 03:17, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

Names
I have seen the Commodore's father listed as Cornelius Vanderbilt, Sr. (http://www.biography.com/people/cornelius-vanderbilt-9515195) as well as Cornelius van Derbilt (http://www.nndb.com/people/365/000022299/). Numerous sources also list the Commodore's wife as Frances Armstrong "Frank" Crawford while some list her as simply Frank Armstrong Crawford. Does anybody know which is the case? If the Commodore's father is Sr., then that would make the Commodore Jr., the Commodore's grandson Cornelius III rather than II, great-grandson IV rather than III, etc. XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 21:01, 10 July 2013 (UTC)


 * There's no sense in trying to resolve the issue of Sr. and Jr., we just have to choose one and stick to it so it's unambiguous. It's traditional that when there are, say, a Sr, a Jr. and a III, and the Sr dies, the Jr becomes the new Sr and the III becomes the new Jr. So one individual could reasonably be Sr, Jr, and also III during his lifetime. Obviously this doesn't apply when regnal names are involved, or when a family numbers its members consecutively and doesn't change them. It's also not a tradition that's useful in an encyclopedia. As for Frank, various authors have stated that her father was determined to name his firstborn after his friend Frank Armstrong, regardless of sex. And this seems to be true. However, it's also true that, at least after her marriage to Vanderbilt, she gave her name as Frances. - Nunh-huh 15:05, 11 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Actually no- Jr doesn't become Sr when Sr dies. Jr remains Jr, III remains III, etc. Death has no impact on suffix, as calling III "Jr" for example would be like discounting the Sr. Also for the record, III isn't always son of Jr or II. I was looking to find if perhaps the Commodore Vanderbilt's name was anglicized and his parents' names weren't. If not anglicized, he is Jr. XXSNUGGUMSXX (talk) 20:12, 11 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm afraid you're misinformed. See Martin, Judith (1991). Miss Manners' Guide to Excruciatingly Correct Behavior pp. 31-32. New York: Galahad Books. ISBN 0-88-365-781-3. Sr and Jr are usually used only to distinguish two living individuals, and Jr. usually drops the Jr. when Sr. dies. There are circumstances where this doesn't happen, usually when Sr. is famous, and just as there are families that honor the "moving up" convention, there are also families that do not do so. As for when van der Bilt became Vanderbilt, I suspect that took place over a period of time gradually, probably over several generations as New Amsterdam became New York, rather than being a deliberately adopted spelling change that occurred on a given day. - Nunh-huh 00:14, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Dead link
The last ref in the "Death and legacy" section contains a dead link: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,300299,00.html. Vzeebjtf (talk) 07:10, 21 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I've tagged it as a dead link. If it's noteworthy that this person claims the connection to the book (and I have my doubts), there should be a better source for it, though. Rivertorch (talk) 15:29, 21 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Perhaps the better part of valor would be to simply remove the claim. Even if there were a reliable source (rather than a right-wing blog), and even if it were true that Vanderbilt inspired a character in an Ayn Rand novel, that really says nothing about Vanderbilt, only something about Rand (Vanderbilt was a successful capitalist tycoon (already well-covered in the article), Rand liked capitalist tycoons (important only to an article about Rand)) . And in what I must assume to be essentially the same blog page that was once referenced by the link (, found by searching for title and author), Vanderbilt isn't even mentioned. - Nunh-huh 16:42, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * The original article is available via the Wayback Machine: link. It does mention Vanderbilt. No comment on whether or not this warrants inclusion in the article. -- Diannaa (talk) 17:07, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I tend to agree with Nunh-huh, which is why I didn't even bother to look for an archived version. If this is worth noting at all (and I even have my doubts about that), it's something for the Rand article, not this one. Removing paragraph now. Rivertorch (talk) 19:39, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

English ancestry
Cornelius Vanderbilt was of English descent through his mother, Phebe Hand.

http://www.geni.com/people/Phebe-Vanderbilt/6000000006954295053

http://www.geni.com/people/Stephen-Hand/6000000001110167518

His paternal grandmothers surname of "Sprague" could also indicate further English ancestry.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.175.13.142 (talk) 15:45, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
 * We would need sources that explicitly state what his heritage was, though. Many sources talk about his Dutch ancestry, and sources talking about English ancestry would be needed. Surnames often suggest certain heritages, but do not always apply.  Snuggums ( talk  /  edits ) 21:47, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

Here is a source that talks about the "Hand" family:

https://archive.org/stream/mayflowerpilgrim02howe#page/338/mode/2up/search/Hand

Unfortunately, it follows the line of his son, Thomas Hand, and not Stephen Hand, Snr -- who is the progenitor for Phebe Hand. Along with this, it should show that it was the same family.

Mary Sprague (or "Spragg", as it was spelt), was of mostly English stock:

http://www.sprague-database.org/genealogy/getperson.php?personID=I91434&tree=SpragueProject

94.175.13.142 (talk) 15:25, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 September 2014
Under the summary section is lists his wife Frank as a male, when she was indeed female.

73.162.112.217 (talk) 21:33, 14 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Yes check.svg Done - Nunh-huh 21:44, 14 September 2014 (UTC)


 * I've reverted your edit, Nunh-huh- the "his death" actually refers to when Commodore Vanderbilt died, not Frank.  Snuggums ( talk  /  edits ) 22:23, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Oh. Yes. I've always thought that showing the duration of a marriage as a range after a person's name is very easily misread, and potentially misleading, and now I've proven myself correct :) - Nunh-huh 23:28, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 January 2015
Hello, this is the current side box for the article on Cornelius, unless I am mistaken his second spouse was not a male. Frank Crawford in this particular situation is a female. She lived from 1839-1885, he died in 1877 but the title is spouse(s) so its a bit confusing.

Spouse(s) Sophia Johnson (m. 1813—1868; her death) Frank Armstrong Crawford (m. 1869—1877; his death)   <<<<<<< this is where it should be changed to "her death"

The side box should now read

Spouse(s) Sophia Johnson (m. 1813—1868; her death) Frank Armstrong Crawford (m. 1869—1877; her death)

Sergberg10 (talk) 06:37, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: Yes, Frank Crawford is a female. In the spouse parameter of article's infobox, the year format represents the time period they were together. In first case, (m. 1813—1868; her death)- Sopia Johnson married Cornelius in 1813 and remained spouse until her (-Sophia) death in 1868. In second, -(m. 1869—1877; his death)- Frank Crawford married Cornelius in 1869 and remained her wife until his (-Cornelius) death in 1877. Hope, it is clear now. Anupmehra  - Let's talk!  12:46, 18 January 2015 (UTC)