Talk:Cornwall/Archive 8

Cornwall during Roman Occupation
There is dissapointingly little information on this period. The Ordnance Survey map of Roman Britain shows very little military or civilian presence, but a large number of significant hoards found along the South coast. This indicates not that Cornwall suffered Roman occupation, but rather that it fought and plundered the invaders, and I would be interested to learn what other evidence exists of activities around this period. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.67.10.253 (talk) There could be more at article History of Cornwall: the Timeline of Cornish history published by the County Council is a good source of information. West of Exeter the Romans probably did not occupy but a fort at Nanstallon and some other earthworks are probably Roman; Roman milestones (five I think) were sited in Cornwall but nothing like a Roman road has been found; trading was no doubt by sea and river routes particularly across by the Camel - Fowey valleys and onwards to GaulFelix Folio Secundus (talk) 04:28, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Announcement: The 2009 Structural Changes in Local Government in England: A Taskforce

 * 1) On 1 April, 2009, a number of changes will occur that will affect a number of counties and districts in England, including some which fall within the remit of your project and/or county.
 * 2) The changes will necessitate a large number of changes to various articles on wikipedia.
 * 3) New articles may have to be written, old ones may have to be changed because they will then describe abolished former districts, etc, and numerous changes will have to be made to templates, category names, and articles about individual settlements to update information about local government.
 * 4) Because of this the Uk Geography Project has set up a specific taskforce to identify the changes to be made and then to coordinate the work of preparing for the changes and then implementing them when the changes occur on 1 April.
 * 5) The name of the taskforce is WikiProject UK geography/2009 local government structural changes task force or WP:2009ENGLAND.
 * 6) You are invited to join this taskforce to help us all improve wikipedia in these areas by making sure the information is kept updated, and accurate.

Many thanks. DDStretch   (talk)  21:52, 15 January 2009 (UTC) (on behalf of the taskforce)
 * I have made the infoboxes for Cornish districts and boroughs in my sandbox ready to replace the current infoboxes on 1 April.  Jolly  Ω   Janner  22:54, 15 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I have added the infoboxes to all the districts of Cornwall within tags. I will delete the tags and the old infobox on 1 April leaving the new infobox in full view.  Jolly  Ω   Janner  21:17, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Athelstan
The present introduction gives the date 922 for the border set by Athelstan: however "Cornish_people#The_Cornish_in_history" gives 936 and "Events of the 10th century" gives 928. Perhaps the matter needs to be looked at.--Felix Folio Secundus (talk) 20:48, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Taliesin ab Iolo Morganwg
"These texts are now known to have been forged by Iolo Morganwg. Interrupted at p. 494 by the editor's illness and death, completed by the Rev. Thomas Price (Carnhuanawc). Published for the Welsh MSS. Society." They were published in 1848 not 1843 having been edited by Taliesin Williams (the collection was the work of Edward Williams): if they are not genuine the inclusion of this quotation is misleading.Felix Folio Secundus (talk) 20:45, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Celtic nations
A discussion is taking place at Celtic nations regarding whether Cornwall is actually a Celtic nation, or not. Editors are invited to participate. Daicaregos (talk) 09:23, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Overplaying the separatist / self governing movement
In the introduction it says "Many inhabitants question the present constitutional status of Cornwall, and a self-government movement seeks greater autonomy within the UK." This is quite a strong statement for the introduction and i think it grossly overplays support for such changes. Please define "many" and if that is not possible, this statement should be removed or atleast made more neutral. BritishWatcher (talk) 14:12, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Ive removed it as no sources backed up the claim.
 * I've restored it with a reference to the 50,000-name petition for a Cornish assembly, which clearly backs up the phrase concerned. Bretonbanquet (talk) 19:46, 8 May 2009 (UTC)
 * 10% of the Cornish electorate is a tiny minority. It certainly is misleading to say "many inhabitants question the present constitutional status of Cornwall" That is not clear just because some people want more devolution. Im sorry but this is grossly overplaying the situation in Cornwall and im going to remove it again. The Scotland article at the end of the introduction makes clear the constitutional future of Scotland still gives rise to debate, which is totally justified as theres a separatist executive in power. There is no such justification here, Devolution is not going to be extended, its not backed by the two major parties and its clearly not backed by the people. It should be mentioned in the article somewhere, but NOT in the introduction.
 * Im sorry but i can not accept the misleading statements, i dont want to get into an edit war so we will have to seek others points of view on this matter if you change it again. BritishWatcher (talk) 14:37, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Your argument is that every person who disagrees with the present constitutional status of Cornwall signed the petition. You cannot know this and, you must agree, it seems extremely unlikely. Please read WP:SYN. 50,000 people seems to qualify to be described as 'many' to me and the statement is not misleading and is referenced. Whether devolution is extended or not is not for us to decide. This is an encyclopedia, not a forum. Daicaregos (talk) 17:03, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
 * You misunderstand me, what i meant was not everyone who signed a petition for devolution disputes Cornwalls constitutional status, and yet the statement said "Many inhabitants question the present constitutional status of Cornwall, and a self-government movement seeks greater autonomy within the UK.". You are trying to justify that "many" because 50,000 votes for greater autonomy.. wheres the justification for many to be used for questioning the constitutional status of Cornwall?
 * Im sorry but according to the BBC source 50,000 is only 10% of the electorate, that is a tiny minority. The statement is grossly misleading and it should not be re added. Im sure about 50,000 people want English independence from the United Kingdom, it doesnt justify a mention of it in the introduction. This is indeed an encyclopedia, sadly some have clearly been using it to push separatist agendas by misleading readers. We do not even go as far to say "many" people want Scottish independence on the Scottish article, its worded in a far more balanced way that Scotlands future continues to give rise to debate and yet theres a larger group than 10% wanting Independence.  BritishWatcher (talk) 17:23, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
 * 10% of the total population on a poll isn't bad, many a European Parliament Member has been elected on similar numbers.   If it said "Most" it would be misleading,  "Many" seems fine but we can look at other words. --Snowded (talk) 18:04, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I've reverted to the 'many' sentence in the lead para. Even so, I'm not keen on using that word either. Also I've added a reference to statement in the politics section supporting the statement that all of Cornwall's MP's support establishing a Cornish assembly. Also I've added another statement in the Politics section(referenced) that a Mori poll shows a majority of respondents are in favour of an assembly. Honestly, BritishWatcher, your contributions to this encyclopedia could be so much better if you took the time and trouble to research the subjects you criticise. Just bothering to read and understand the articles would be a start. You waste so many editors' time. Daicaregos (talk) 18:19, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry i think saying "many" for 10% of the population is grossly misleading and the silly electoral methods of the European Parliament do not change that. Theres three problems here, first it is simply wrong to say many question Cornwalls constitutional status, even if some want more devolution.. that isnt "questioning" the current status, which sounds like many dont think its part of England. Second "Many" for 10% of the population is "not as exact" as it could be ;). Third i dont think theres justification for any of the statement in the introduction, i cant see it mentioned in North East Englands introduction which actually had a referendum on having an assembly... slightly more valid a case than a small petition and a couple of Lib dem MPs. Including a mori poll is fine with me, but again such things do not belong in the introduction.
 * I comment and request change to statements i consider inaccurate or misleading, ive certainly come across a few in the last couple of days. The most important thing about an encyclopedia is accuracy not size and id rather no information or article at all than misleading ones. :) BritishWatcher (talk) 18:22, 9 May 2009 (UTC
 * Well maybe you should go and change the North East article then. 10% is substantial for a poll, its enough to justify a statement.   How about trying to come up with an alternative to Many which is acceptable?  I also agree with Dai, if you find something you think is inaccurate or misleading you hit straight away without doing some basic research - same thing over on Celtic nations.  --Snowded (talk) 18:28, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I do not think a referendum which was rejected deserves a mention in the introduction, its mentioned further down in the article itself where it belongs, just like it doesnt belong in the introduction here. Ive told you "Many" is not the only problem, so changing a word isnt going to solve it. This really is unacceptable and misleading which is why i added the dispute tag to warn readers they are being mislead, i dont know if its intentional or not. As for not doing research, im sorry but ive yet to see any evidence that suggests im wrong. BritishWatcher (talk) 18:34, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

⬅ Then you haven't looked. Also you disputed the whole article which is bad practice. If "Celtic nation" is pipelinked then that handles any issue about misleading (see the discussion there). Saying that Cornwall is a celtic nation does not mean it is a 'nation' or that everyone sees themselves as a celt as we established on that article. Dai has given other evidence above which you have not responded to. It is a significant asepect of Cornwell which is different from the other English Counties (in effect it was Welsh for a long period). I think if you showed some respect for that it would be easier to reach agreement. --Snowded (talk) 18:48, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
 * "Saying that Cornwall is a celtic nation does not mean it is a 'nation'" lol its all so clear to me now. Im sorry but to avoid confusion or possibly misleading people who do not go on to the Celtic nations which is currently a complete mess anyway, we shouldnt have that in the introduction. A small number of people or organisations thinking something does not justify a mention in the introduction. I replied to the points made by Dai, such things on the lib dems supporting an assembly, the poll, the petition should all be mentioned in the article, i just dont think they belong in the intro (same with the "celtic nation" bit.
 * I have great respect for Cornwall, It is a county of England and whilst ofcourse it has its own history like all English counties, we shouldnt be saying its a celtic nation in the intro, especially as you admit it may not actually be a nation. BritishWatcher (talk) 19:19, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The Isle of Man Government considers Cornwall a Celtic Nation!

http://www.gov.im/post/stamps/FutureIssue.aspx?categoryid=164  Teapot  george Talk  19:34, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
 * How wonderful, as i have said before i dont dispute the fact some view Cornwall as a celtic nation, what im saying is this isnt a mainstream view, its certainly not the British government view and its unacceptable not to explain who "considers it a celtic nation" if its mentioned anywhere in the article. BritishWatcher (talk) 19:43, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
 * What would you consider "the mainstream"? And the terms "state", "country" and "nation" are not synonymous. --Joowwww (talk) 12:54, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Perhaps then we can simply say "and is considered by some as one of the six "Celtic nations" ?  Teapot  george Talk  20:11, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Dispute Tag
OK BW, if you think there are many errors LIST them, its not enough to tag an article with a general statement If you can't then self revert (there are WIki rules about this you know). --Snowded (talk) 18:51, 9 May 2009 (UTC)


 * 1) and is considered one of the six "Celtic nations" by many residents and scholars.


 * 2) Many inhabitants question the present constitutional status of Cornwall, and a self-government movement seeks greater autonomy within the UK.


 * 3) There is a growing call within Cornwall for greater self-rule.


 * 4) Many residents advocate the creation of a Cornish Assembly, along the lines of those for Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland,


 * 5) Cornwall is usually described as being one of six Celtic nations alongside Brittany, Ireland, the Isle of Man, Scotland and Wales.


 * 6) (including the national census) have given results varying from 7% to 79%


 * 7) Many people in Cornwall say that this issue would be resolved if a Cornish option became available on the census.


 * Those are some of the statements i have a problem with. Alot of it is on the use of the word "many" again which needs clarification. Theres no sources for the survey that showed 79% consider themselves Cornish, and considering the current article on Cornish people says they are "celtic people", im unsure they think it has the same meaning. BritishWatcher (talk) 19:06, 9 May 2009 (UTC)


 * OK, so its ALL ONE ISSUE - tag that if you have to but not the whole article. You are still not reading the material above by the way, otherwise most of that list would go.  Back off for a bit, think about what you are doing here.  --Snowded (talk) 19:15, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Ive read the above, this is about two issues the problem is as pointed out in my list there are many sentences spread throughout the article. I think something as misleading as saying Cornwall is a celtic nation in the introduction warrants a warning to the reader. BritishWatcher (talk) 19:21, 9 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Well one can't dispute that you think it, unfortunately you are wrong. Lets see what happens over the next 24 hours.  --Snowded (talk) 19:49, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Ok, now theres a dispute tag it takes away the urgency to remove the misleading claims so lets wait a day or two but it doesnt appear to be a very active talk page so not sure how many other opinions we will get in that time. BritishWatcher (talk) 20:26, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

To address each point raised above:
 * 1) Change "residents and scholars" for verifiably sourced bodies, whoever they are.
 * 2) No problem with this. 'Many' is an awkward word with a subjective meaning. Suggest changing it for 'some' or something similar.
 * 3) Needs a reference.
 * 4) No pro:blem with this as per #2.
 * 5) Clarify who or what bodies consider Cornwall a Celtic nation.
 * 6) Needs a reference.
 * 7) Needs a reference.

A lot of the problems with the article just seem to be over referencing and wording. I don't see anything here worth the fuss that's developing, and I don't see anything as misleading as is being suggested. Bretonbanquet (talk) 20:54, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree with most of the suggestions to resolve the problems, but im sorry i dont see how its not misleading to look at an article about an English county and see it described as a "celtic nation" in the introduction. Thats a pretty big deal and why its important to warn people that there may be problems with the article.
 * On 1) even with a correction of who claims its a celtic nation, i do not think that is justified to be mentioned in the introduction. The British government does not support or endorse the claim, a couple of celtic organisations which clearly have their own agenda doesnt make them notable enough.
 * On 2) Less than 10% of the people signing a petition does not justify a mention in the introduction. We have a single sentence on the Scotland article, saying its constitutional future continues to give rise to debate, thats clearly justified. I dont see the big debate on this issue or that anything is going to happen about it. Devolution is not going to be given to Cornwall and 5 lib dem MPs have no power to change that.
 * On 3) It depends on how big the growing calls are, If support for greater autonomy is 1% and goes to 10% thats growing, but it needs to be put into context of how small the support for it is.
 * On 4)Some would be better than many
 * On 5) AGreed it should say Celtic League and Congress describe it as a celtic nation - at the moment its totally misleading by saying its usually described as a celtic nation.. - Its called an English county more for sure. but this is the place where the celtic nation should be talked about, it doesnt belong in the introduction.
 * on 6 and 7) Yes find references for the claims if they exist. The number who said they were Cornish on the census is the most important figure, it shouldnt just say from 7-79% BritishWatcher (talk) 22:02, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I did a search for the 79% consider themselves Cornish but couldnt find anything. The Census is clearly the thing we should take seriously BritishWatcher (talk) 22:05, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) I disagree, I think it is justified to be mentioned in the opening paragraph. The British government are not arbiters of what claim should or shouldn't be endorsed. As long as it's clear who believes it to be a Celtic nation, that's all a wikipedia article needs to be bothered with. If there are counter-claims, such as any by the British government, then they can be included too.
 * 2) Again, I disagree, and the Scotland article is not at issue here. 10% of the population signed the petition, but clearly that is a higher percentage of Cornish people, given that not everyone in Cornwall is Cornish. The petition was not readily available to be signed by Cornish people outside Cornwall, for example I did not sign it, though I would have if I'd been given the opportunity. The 50,000 is an indication of a degree of support, not a total number of supporters. You saying that Cornwall will not be given devolution is crystal-balling and has no bearing on the article's content.
 * 3) Agreed, and I think someone added a reference on that point.
 * 4) I think 'some' would be okay - it's still vague, but more neutral than 'many'.
 * 5) It doesn't say it's called a Celtic nation to the exclusion of other descriptions, but I agree that it could be reworded. I still think "totally misleading" is something of an exaggeration. A reference to Cornwall's Celticness does belong in the introduction.
 * 6-7) The Census is all very well, but there was no "Cornish" box to tick, which would have resulted in a different figure. This needs to be clarified and referenced. The '79%' - 79% of who? Cornish people or people in Cornwall? Does that include people who just own second homes in Cornwall? Figures like these need to be very clearly referenced.

Bretonbanquet (talk) 22:29, 9 May 2009 (UTC) So long as the term "Celtic nations" is retained within the inverted commas and linked to the relevant page, I think the text would be improved by deleting the words "by many residents and scholars". That phrase is both meaningless and contentious - it doesn't add anything of value. There clearly need to be good references for the claim for it being a "Celtic nation", but those do exist, even if the concept itself derives from non-neutral sources. Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:51, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
 * That sounds like a very reasonable proposal --Snowded (talk) 10:58, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Daicaregos (talk) 11:14, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Looks good to me. Bretonbanquet (talk) 11:41, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Done. Could use more references though. Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:15, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Again i agree with some of the points made about how to improve sentences within the article and to provide better references. However i still see it as grossly misleading to say that Cornwall is considered a Celtic nation in the introduction and that many seek greater autonomy and the worst bit is the "question Cornwalls constitutional status" - this is totally unacceptable, "Many" (however u define many) do not question it. Cornwall is a county of England, not a celtic nation and i find it offensive that a couple of Celtic organisations which have no influence or power over the governing of Cornwall and isnt even known by the majority of people who live there is somehow deemed important enough for a mention in the introduction.
 * The change actually makes things worse not better, we have gone from the article saying that Cornwall is a considered a celtic nation by "many residents and scholars" which was a lie to "Cornwall is considered one of the six celtic nation" with no qualification or explanation at all? How on earth is this better?????
 * Thank you all for taking my concerns seriously, however the matter has clearly yet to be resolved. BritishWatcher (talk) 10:40, 11 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Perhaps we could turn this round a little. Instead of everyone running round in circles trying to appease one editor, maybe it is about time that the editor who is complaining that all these things are 'totally unacceptable' actually does some work on the subject. How about that editor coming up with a form of wording that is acceptable to the majority of editors on this article, together with relevant references. Don't you think it's about time you actually did some work here, instead of just whinging about everyone else's hard work. I mean, how many article have you created, Britishwatcher ? How many articles have you been substansially involved with that have achieved 'Did you know ...? ? How many articles have you, personally, managed to attain Featured Article, or even Good Article status? It's time you pandered to those who have actually done some work on this encyclopedia, and not the other way around. Daicaregos (talk) 11:57, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Hmm i think i did something by removing a grossly misleading claim, but guess what it was readded by certain editors. I have explained very clearly i do not think it is justified for the statement on being a celtic nation or the greater autonomy to remain in the introduction, and ill happily expand on the reasons why if you want. This is my main concern and its the reason why i think the disputed tag needs to remain. Apart from removing the offensive and misleading claims (which i tried to several times) i dont see how i can help change the introduction.
 * You need to calm down i think, you may not have a problem with articles that mislead people but i do. Accurate content is more important than incorrect or misleading articles which seriously damage wikipedias standing. BritishWatcher (talk) 12:52, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
 * BW, though I sometimes do agree with your comments elsewhere, you are going way over the top on this issue. Like it or not, Cornwall can be termed a "Celtic nation" - with inverted commas to show that it is not necessarily an objective description - that being the description used by organisations such as the Celtic League. The word "nation" does not necessarily mean "nation state" and, whether or not you think it is "unacceptable" (sorry BW, but your personal views are irrelevant here), it is used.  And clearly - as the article Cornish self-government movement shows - it is not only an issue for "a couple of Celtic" organisations.   Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:53, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Im sorry Ghmyrtle, i understand you are trying to improve the article unlike some others but i am surprised that people do not see how big a deal this matter is. Should we say the UK is an Islamic nation because certain people or organisations want that to be the case and some of the population are muslims? Cornwall is a county in England, it may have celtic culture, roots and history but that is slightly different to saying "Cornwall is considered a celtic nation" in the introduction without even a qualification of who considers that to be the case.. I find it very misleading.
 * On the fact they seek greater autonomy, again i would like examples of how this is justified? I dont see Hawaii or Alaska saying some seek independence from the USA in their introduction. I dont see the fact the people of North East England actually had a referendum on greater autonomy but rejected it in the introduction?
 * This article right now seriously misleads people and i think thats unacceptable and am not just going to ignore it. Because of the track record of this article and others related to it i wouldnt trust Cornish self-government movement at all, although ive yet to read through that fully yet. The main article on cornwall is clearly more important right now. BritishWatcher (talk) 13:00, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
 * And theres this bit "many inhabitants question the present constitutional status of Cornwall". Totally misleading and simply incorrect under any definition of the word "many". Where are all these people questioning Cornwalls constitutional status? Clearly not all those who seek greater autonomy question the current constitutional status (if Cornwall is really part of England). So how on earth is this misleading claim allowed to remain? BritishWatcher (talk) 13:10, 11 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I think you're confusing the concept of "nationhood" with the idea of seeking independence. I doubt if there are more than a tiny minority in Cornwall who seek independence from the UK - however, I also know (having myself worked for a time in the South West Regional Assembly) - that there is much more widespread support there for greater autonomy from English regional bodies.  The references to Cornwall as a "nation" are only confusing, in my view, to people who don't understand what the word "nation" can mean, and I again emphasise the importance of the inverted commas to make clear that it is a "so-called" nation (although I wouldn't suggest using that term in the article itself).   I can't find your reference to "many individuals.." - the text I see states: "some groups and individuals question the present constitutional status of Cornwall..." which is a bit mealy-mouthed but true, and referenced in the linked article. Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:17, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree with the point you make, use of nation is confusing and by placing "Cornwall is considered a Celtic nation" in the introduction it makes matters worse, especially as we do not say by WHO. Ofcourse this should be explained in the article that its viewed by some as a celtic nation and then an explanation about it. Cornwall is a county of England, it really is a huge step to say that Cornwall is a Celtic nation (I accept that has nothing to do with seeking independence).
 * My problem with the independence thing is the wording of the intro, right at the bottom of the intro the current article i see says..
 * ". Many inhabitants question the present constitutional status of Cornwall, and a self-government movement seeks greater autonomy within the UK. [7][8]"
 * Now we can argue about if "many" seek greater autonomy and if its worthy for the intro considering other articles dont say such things. But i see no evidence that many inhabitants question the present constitutional status of Cornwall (which basically means Cornwalls satus as an English county). BritishWatcher (talk) 13:33, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
 * D'oh! - yes, I skipped over that, sorry. "Some" is acceptable, "many" is not and is not in line with the article text, hence contravening WP:LEAD.  I'll change it. Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:50, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

I am perfectly calm. Just bored by this. Cornwall is considered to be a Celtic nation. The references support the statement. If you have references to support a statement that says Cornwall is not considered to be a Celtic nation, for example, then you should add them. Otherwise, you just need to accept it. As for the "many inhabitants question the present constitutional status of Cornwall" that is also cited with references that support the statement. And as every Cornwall MP supports a change in the constitution to allow for a Cornish Assembly (also cited) that simply adds weight to the demands. Again, if you have references to support a statement that says many residents of Cornwall support the status quo, for example, then you should add them. Otherwise, you just need to accept that too. I notice that you were unable to give a single example of any constructive work you've achieved on Wikipedia. This does not come as a surprise. Your statement 'i understand you are trying to improve the article unlike some others ...' (sic) was priceless (you were referring to yourself, right?). No one is stopping you from finding references to support statements you think should be added to this article. Your constant whinging is stopping editors from improving Wikipedia by tying up their time. Either do some work on the article, or shut up. I propose removing the tags from this article. Any real editors wish to comment? Daicaregos (talk) 13:36, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
 * If you are bored by this, please spend your time doing something else. You do not sound calm, and thats the reason why i chose to ignore your previous rant. I have explained the reasons why i have problems with certain parts of the introduction above, perhaps you should try reading instead of simply bashing me. I think making an article more accurate is improving the article, i consider those who support keeping misleading content perhaps because of their own political views as unhelpful and their actions certainly dont "improve" the article. BritishWatcher (talk) 13:47, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The tag has now been removed by another editor. I'd oppose any attempts to reintroduce it on the basis of the current text - the intro now reflects the article, and in my view the suggestion that "many" inhabitants question the "constitutional status" of Cornwall is misleading and a partial interpretation of all the evidence.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:58, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
 * His removal of the tag was unreasonable, first considering hes refused to even debate on this talk page about the concerns i have raised and second his offensive description of me as a "disruptive editor". Clearly he has a balanced view on this mater.
 * The change of wording from many to some, is an improvement and removes part of the misleading text. However its still up for debate if its noteworthy enough to be mentioned in the introduction. England, Wales, Alaska, Hawaii all do not mention independence movements or groups wanting greater autonomy. Even Scotland doesnt talk of many wanting independence, it simply says the constitutional future of Scotland continues to give rise for debate.
 * However on Celtic nations, im sorry but i still see this as misleading. I have no problem with the intro saying Cornwall has a celtic history and celtic culture exists still today but "Cornwall is considered a Celtic Nation" is a step tooo far and simply putting "Celtic Nation" changes very little. BritishWatcher (talk) 14:08, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
 * If every MP in England supported greater autonomy, would you consider it noteworthy enough to include in the lead? Because every MP in Cornwall does. Daicaregos (talk) 14:17, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Ive said before the fact the Lib dem MPs support greater autonomy is an important point and should be included in the article but we all know that those MPs have no authority on this matter and can not change how Cornwall is governed. Did they all campaign on bringing more autonomy to Cornwall or do they just support it in passing as a way to get more power? If all MPs in England wanted greater autonomy they have the power to make it happen, so its slightly more notable.
 * Even if the fact the Lib dems support greater autonomy make that notable enough, it doesnt solve the problem that we are currently claiming Cornwall is a Celtic Nation which is grossly misleading and do those Lib dems question the constitutional status of Cornwall? (Do they think it isnt part of England)? BritishWatcher (talk) 14:40, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Hmmm perhaps it might be helpful if the introduction mentioned the fact Cornwall became a unitary authority a month ago instead of attempts for a Cornish Assembly from 2001? BritishWatcher (talk) 15:03, 11 May 2009 (UTC)


 * : Sorry BW, but it looks like you are arguing a political position rather than dealing with the evidence. The phrase "Celtic Nation" is established and it does include Cornwall.   The amendment to put it in inverted comments and pipelink it to the article makes this clear.  You are not dealing with that but are making this a nationalist-unionist debate which it really isn't about.  Whether MPs support greater autonomy or not is a separate point that may or many not be notable.  It has nothing to do with Cornwall's celtic past and the fact that it is a "Celtic Nationa".  --Snowded (talk) 20:32, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
 * My main problem with the celtic nation statement was that it didnt explain who uses the term, which the recent change has resolved. The MPs supporting greater autonomy was on the other issue, which is also less of a problem now. At first it said in the intro MANY inhabitants question cornwalls constitutional status / and seek greater autonomy, thats now changed to some which is more accurate. BritishWatcher (talk) 09:48, 12 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I would say that many seek greater autonomy, but it is true that only some question Cornwall's constitutional status (although Andrew George MP and Dan Rogerson MP are two of them). --Joowwww (talk) 13:00, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Recent change
Ghmyrtle thank you, the recent change adding who views Cornwall as a celtic nation does remove the problem (even though i think it doesnt justify mention in the intro) its now far more acceptable and i wont re add the tag. Just for the record, i should probably tell you all i made a post on an Admin board after id posted it i saw the change you made a minute ago so i removed it straight away. BritishWatcher (talk) 09:41, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * No prob - let's see if anyone else is happy. Next time, I seriously suggest you try to come up with a wording yourself, rather than trying to appeal to a (?!!!) "higher authority".  Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:48, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Im sorry but it didnt seem like it was going to get anywhere as people disagreed with my concerns on the celtic nation bit which is what i had the biggest problem with, so i wanted information about what we could do next. I had said several times i think we should say who describes them as celtic nations, but there was no agreement. Anyway im happy with the recent change and the previous changes made (changing many to some etc) even though i still think its overplaying the matter, but its not misleading now. thanks BritishWatcher (talk) 09:54, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * On the contrary. The revision makes it seem as if it is only the Celtic League and Celtic Congress who consider Cornwall to be a Celtic nation. Whereas it has far wider acceptance. For example Cornwall participates in Festival Interceltique de Lorient - self evidently for Celtic nations, Isle of Man Government, Mebyon Kernow, Nationalia (The Catalan organisation highlighting stateless or semi-autonomous nations),Cornwall - Celtic nation (from the BBC). The reference Payton, Philip (1996). Cornwall. Fowey: Alexander Associates, was also provided. Additionally, both the Commission for Racial Equality and the Council of Europe consider the Cornish to have a separate ethnic identiy. I have changed the lead to reflect this. As Teapotgeorge says. This is just about one disruptive editor. (Editor! lol). Let him go whinging to the Administrators. Let's see what they have to say. Daicaregos (talk) 10:43, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * All those additional sources are either non-neutral or don't refer to Cornwall as a "nation". They don't add anything to the discussion.  Where there are differences, at least let's try for consensus.  I'll refer this discussion to WikiProject Cornwall.  They may have a view, after all.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 11:10, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree it is a good idea to post on the Cornwall project to get feedback from there and i agree about the sources. Especially the BBC one, which isnt a BBC article but part of their site where anyone can edit much like Wikipedia which clearly has its own problems as well. BritishWatcher (talk) 11:27, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * What's wrong with "some individuals, academics, campaign groups, government bodies and European agencies", followed by references? Also include Plaid Cymru, the SNP, and the BIIBP to the list.--Joowwww (talk) 13:06, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Too much information which would overburden what, in the lead, is supposed to be a summary of the article. We need a relatively light touch here - something like: "The county is recognised as one of the six "Celtic nations" by some residents and groups, including the Celtic Congress and the Celtic League."  Any need for more explanation should go in the main text further down the page.  Which "government bodies" did you have in mind, Joowwww?  Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:23, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The Isle of Man Government is one. Daicaregos (talk) 14:20, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The link shows IoM stamps which "celebrate the languages of the Celtic world", but doesn't describe Cornwall as a "nation", so far as I can see. Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:27, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, it says: 'This set of stamps celebrates the links between the Isle of Man and other Celtic nations: Scotland, Wales, Cornwall, Brittany, Ireland, Asturies and Galicia. Each stamp features the native language of our fellow Celts.' It's towards the bottom of the page. Daicaregos (talk) 15:29, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry, you're quite right. Ghmyrtle (talk) 16:12, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Here are a few more: The Irish television station, RTE, names Cornwall as a Celtic country here. Clare library notes Cornwall as a Celtic nation (under IICE- The Institute for International Cultural Exchange - to help you find it) here. Kerry County Council notes Cornwall as a Celtic nation (under Pan-Celtic festival) here. Kildare News notes Cornwall as a Celtic nation (under More pipe bands for Duchas 99) here. The Cornish Language and its Literature By Peter Berresford Ellis talks of Cornwall being a Celtic nation & country (p152 on here Celtic Culture By John T. Koch notes Cornwall as a Celtic nation (e.g. p 1416) here. 'Cornwall ... a nation ... with a Celtic culture ...' The Cultural Landscape Past, Present and Future, by Hilary H. Birks here The point is that it is not just the Celtic League & the Celtic Congress who call Cornwall a Celtic nation. Daicaregos (talk) 15:24, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not happy either Ghmyrtle, linking this to the celtic league and celtic congress implies that it is only those organisations and neither is one I would be happy to associate with. We are pandering to a single editor here who is arguing what he thinks should be the case, rather than addressing the formal term "celtic nations" which has specific meaning.   I'm happy with some restriction as its not all, but not with that one.  --Snowded (talk) 15:30, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I accept that it is not just those bodies, and earlier on I suggested "The county is recognised as one of the six 'Celtic nations' by some residents and groups, including the Celtic Congress and the Celtic League" and Joowwww suggested "The county is recognised as one of the six 'Celtic nations' by some individuals, academics, campaign groups, government bodies and European agencies" I prefer my option for the reasons I outlined before, but would be happy to change it to, say, "The county is recognised as one of the six 'Celtic nations' by the Celtic Congress, the Celtic League, and others."  Any comments, or alternative forms of words?  Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:36, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * If we are to qualify it then a variation of Jowwww's suggestion is OK, but I think by pipelinking it and placing it in quotes enough has been done. As Dai has shown above there are plenty of other references that could be added in.  --Snowded (talk) 15:39, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The wording suggested earlier by Ghmyrtle.. "The county is recognised as one of the six 'Celtic nations' by some residents and groups, including the Celtic Congress and the Celtic League." that makes it more clear or if you dont like Celtic Congress / League then just say some residents and groups. Its more accurate than the current wording, and the previous wording said by many residents and scholars, my big problem with that was the word "many" BritishWatcher (talk) 15:42, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The current version: 'Cornwall is the homeland of the Cornish people and diaspora, and is recognised as one of the six "Celtic nations".' is accurate and reads well. No need to change it and no need to reference the Celtic Congress or the Celtic League - and it doesn't say 'many'. Daicaregos (talk) 15:45, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The problem there is that the words "..is recognised.." are possibly ambiguous, and might suggest to some readers that the recognition is more universal and uncontested than is actually the case. Personally I think the inverted commas around the term do the job, but some brief explanation of who the term is recognised by would, in my view, add to the article rather than detract from it - though I really am not bothered as to whether that explanation should be in the lead or further down the article itself.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:54, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Saying "Celtic nations" instead of Celtic Nations makes very little difference to how reading the statement comes across. Ghmyrtle thankyou for accepting that simply saying Is recognised.... might suggest to some readers that its universal, thats exactly how i read it. In the introduction of an article about an English county wikipedia is declaring that Cornwall is a recognised Celtic nation, im sorry but thats a big deal which is why a qualification is needed in the introduction. I dont think it needs to be repeated again further down the article, and i removed the dubious tag from there myself after the wording to the intro was changed before. BritishWatcher (talk) 16:12, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * WP:LEAD makes clear, in my view, that the intro should only summarise material which is contained within the body of the article. So the full explanation of who recognises the term "Celtic nation" would be better in the main text - but the intro should still avoid using words which can be misunderstood.  Would "..is considered to be one of the six "Celtic nations" be better, or worse? (sounding like an eye test now...)   Ghmyrtle (talk) 16:21, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Up until a few days ago it said "and is considered one of the six "Celtic nations" by many residents and scholars", the biggest problem with that was the word many (which has been used several times) instead of saying by "some". Use of the word recognized as a celtic nation makes an explanation as to WHO recognizes it even more important than "considered". I think this should be gone into in greater detail in the article itself but there needs to be basic information in the intro about who says it. BritishWatcher (talk) 16:39, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, there are many references (above) from which you could begin to construct any additional information to the article text. There will be many more should you choose to look for them. Do you want to run it past us here, to gain consensus first, or will you just add it to the article? Thing is, once you begin to list who actually defines Cornwall as a Celtic nation, you need to research it thoroughly. Otherwise it would imply that those listed are the only ones. Daicaregos (talk) 16:46, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Going into greater detail in the article about the "Celtic nation" would ofcourse need consensus and much further research and sources. Expanding on it is an option which i think would be a good idea but i dont view it as a problem that it currently doesnt. The sentence in the introduction i do have a big problem with and as Ghmyrtle said, it could be misunderstood and sound as though Cornwall is universally recognized as a Celtic nation. Thats how i read it which is why i have a big problem with it. BritishWatcher (talk) 17:00, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
 * This article is the only one of the six relating to the "Celtic nations" where this status is referred to in the introduction. Could someone please explain why such a reference is needed in this introduction, when it does not appear in those other articles, and is not elaborated on to any extent in the main text of this article?  In my view, another solution, consistent with other articles, would be to entirely remove the reference to "Celtic nations" in the introduction here, but to add a referenced and balanced paragraph in the main text itself.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 06:47, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The beginning of the second paragraph on the Wales article, for example, states: 'Originally (and traditionally) a Celtic land and one of the Celtic nations, ...' Have I misunderstood you? Daicaregos (talk) 06:55, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I think I'll go and have a lie down.... Ghmyrtle (talk) 06:59, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Ghmyrtle makes a good point though, all the other articles of the "celtic nations" do not mention this in the introduction or anywhere else in the article, with the exception of Wales. Britanny mentions it in a note above the intro but that articles a complete mess anyway. Now i do not have a problem with the Wales article saying its a Celtic nation, for a start the basis of what is and isnt a celtic nation appears to be mainly linked to language and we know that Welsh now has equal status to English in Wales compare that to Cornwall where a couple of hundred people speak the language and they only agreed a written form last year.

If "Celtic nation" isnt even mentioned on the Ireland articles which everyone accepts is celtic why does an article on an English county have to say it in the introduction and with out any qualification of WHO says it? Cornwall has Celtic roots but it is simply not a celtic nation today what ever you define "nation" as. Ive yet to see mainstream neutral sources saying that Cornwall is a "Celtic Nation" today, all the sources provided have been Celtic organisations or linked to them. What makes it worse is the Celtic nations article itself is a complete mess and its introduction is trying to be reworded.

I still do not think "Celtic Nation" is justified at all to be mentioned in the introduction (although Cornwalls Celtic roots ofcourse is fine) considering 4 of the 5 other "Celtic nations" dont even say they are in the introduction. Out of all the Celtic nations, Cornwall has to be one of the most controversial "nations" its applied to. Because its questionable if its a "nation" and its certainly questionable how Celtic it is today. At the very least it should explain WHO describes Cornwall as a Celtic Nation if it has to remain in the intro. BritishWatcher (talk) 13:55, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Celtic Nation the argument for
Cornwall has been accepted as a Celtic nation by the Celtic League since 1904 and the Celtic Congress since 1961. Talskiddy (talk) 16:46, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I do not dispute that these two organisations and some others view Cornwall as a Celtic Nation, but it would be news to alot of people of Cornwall. If the fact its a Celtic nation belongs in the intro, can you not see it might be helpful to say who views it as one? this isnt a mainstream view held by everyone and it certainly has no official recognition by the British government. BritishWatcher (talk) 17:47, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
 * How come you're an authority on what would or wouldn't be news to Cornish people? I disagree with you on that. What the British government recognises or doesn't recognise is totally irrelevant, by the way. Bretonbanquet (talk) 18:57, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Do you have evidence to suggest that the majority of people in Cornwall view themselves as "Celtic"? Even the very few that described themselves as Cornish in the 2001 census probably dont all consider themselves celtic. Just because a couple of organisations which are not neutral say something does not justify its mention in the introduction and it certainly doesnt justify a declaration that Cornwall is a celtic nation without even saying WHO views it as one.. its totally misleading.
 * Again where are the mainstream, neutral, 3rd party sources saying that Cornwall is a Celtic nation, ive yet to see one. BritishWatcher (talk) 19:02, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
 * There is no need to change the introduction. Surely, enough concessions have been made to accommodate just one disruptive editor. The lead adequately reflects the content of the article, is accurate and reads well. Personally, I don't think it necessary to have references noted in the lead, as they should all be in the main text, but there seems to be enough sources quoted now. If not, more can be found. Cornwall is recognised as a Celtic nation. This is noteworthy and it belongs in the intro Daicaregos (talk) 19:11, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
 * It is recognized as a Celtic nation by SOME organisations. Some people think there are more than 6 Celtic nations, so if that cant even be agreed on we should be saying who thinks theres just six. The current wording is totally unacceptable because it sounds as though this is a fully recognized and accepted term by everyone, thats NOT the case.. as of yet no mainstream sources, neutral sources have been provided saying that Cornwall today is a "celtic nation" BritishWatcher (talk) 19:15, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I have about as much evidence as you do to the contrary, largely because I haven't looked, yet you still seem to think you speak for Cornish people. You disagree with what's in the article, fine, but you don't have the lowdown on what Cornish people think, nor does anyone else. It won't wash with you, and I'm not saying it's a scientific measure, but at least half the people I know consider themselves Cornish. This has gone on for days and I doubt very much whether anything would get this resolved for you. Why would there be any great rush for neutral entities (who don't care either way by definition) to say Cornwall is or isn't a Celtic nation? It's just not that important in the grand scheme of things. It's only important within the Celtic League and similar organisations, and among those individuals who consider themselves Celtic, and neither you nor I can pretend we speak for them. To those people, it's very important I would imagine, hence it deserves a reference in the intro. You seem to be the only person here so "totally misled". Bretonbanquet (talk) 19:17, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
 * This article currently speaks for the people of cornwall by declaring that they are a celtic nation. If neutral sources do not describe it as a Celtic nation this should really be pointed out (if its justified at all). Whilst i do not think its justified for a mention in the introduction, if it simply said that its recognized as a celtic nation by some organisation and residents.. or something along those lines then i would not have a big problem with it because it would be accurate, but at the moment i see this article misleading people because theres no explanation about who considers it one, it sounds like its a mainstream and common view endorsed by the British government.
 * You say half the people you know consider themselves Cornish, i have no problem accepting that and it could certainly be accurate for the whole of Cornwall, but how many of those people that call themselves Cornish consider themselves Celtic or part of some Celtic nation? thats a big difference. If i was born in Cornwall id have a right to consider myself Cornish, but would i have to embrace celtic culture to call myself one? BritishWatcher (talk) 20:04, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

This link is very informative "On being a Cornish ‘Celt’: changing Celtic heritage and traditions in Cornwall" by Bernard Deacon http://projects.exeter.ac.uk/cornishcom/documents/OnbeingaCornishcelt.pdf Don't know if it helps at all?  Teapot  george Talk  20:31, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I thought we decided a long time ago that it should be clearly stated who and which organisations consider Cornwall to be a Celtic nation. I don't remember anyone disagreeing with that plan, so I really don't know why we're still discussing that. I remember suggesting 'some' was used rather than 'many', either here or at the Celtic nations article, so I don't know what else to say. As for Cornishness and Celticness - as far as my experience goes, Celticness goes with Cornishness hand in hand, and I've never heard of anyone calling themselves Cornish who distanced themselves from Celticness. It's a very loose thing to be associated with, one doesn't have to actively "do" anything to be Celtic, it's just associated with being Cornish, and I imagine the same for Scottish, Welsh etc. It's such a non-controversial issue, I can't tell you. Bretonbanquet (talk) 21:48, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Teapotgeorge, that's a very interesting essay, particularly with regard to being a 'modern Celt' - thanks :) Bretonbanquet (talk) 21:52, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't think, personally, that the current wording of the introduction here is perfect - I've suggested variations which haven't commanded much support, and clearly there is no consensus (at present) to change to a different wording. C'est la vie.  BW, perhaps you need to read WP:JDLI.  Moving on, it would be very helpful if someone could summarise key points of the Exeter Uni essay, and reference it in the text here and in other related articles.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 22:04, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I do not like the fact that this is mentioned in the intro but i accept others think it does belong there and i dont have a huge problem with it remaining. What i cant accept is the current wording, without the explanation as to WHO describes it as a celtic nation in the intro and from comments by Bretonbanquet and yourself it doesnt seem like this is an unreasonable point of view to hold so maybe some consensus can be made. BritishWatcher (talk) 09:41, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Whether we choose to retain the: 'Cornwall is the homeland of the Cornish people and diaspora, and is recognised as one of the six "Celtic nations".' or the recently amended: 'Originally (and traditionally) a Celtic land and one of the Celtic nations.' version, BritishWatcher's request to note who considers Cornwall to be a Celtic nation will cause the same problem. If we add those who recognise Cornwall as a Celtic nation the list must either be exhaustive - including academic works - (or the text will imply that only those listed believe it to be the case), or include non-specific words such as many - e.g. 'Cornwall is the homeland of the Cornish people and diaspora, and is recognised by many people and organisations as one of the six "Celtic nations", including the Celtic League, Cornish Stannary Parliament, Mebyon Kernow, Cornish Nationalist Party, Festival Interceltique de Lorient, Plaid Cymru, the SNP, RTE, BIIBP, Celtic Congress, and the Isle of Man Government. I am inclined to revert to the 'Cornwall is the homeland of the Cornish people and diaspora, and is recognised as one of the six "Celtic nations".' version, as anything else will be far too wordy for the introduction. Daicaregos (talk) 11:15, 14 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree, the intro summarises the content, in which case the content can list who considers Cornwall a celtic nation, possibly in the Politics section. --Joowwww (talk) 12:07, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree too. There may even be enough material for a section of it's own?  Teapot  george Talk  12:19, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The introduction does not have to list every organisation and person that considers it a celtic nation, it simply should say something like SOME organisations, scholars and residents recognize it as one of the six celtic nations, or along those lines. Its not good enough to just expand on who views it as one further in the article (although as i said before i think this should be done). The introduction needs to be clear and it cant just remain "Cornwall is recognized as one of the six Celtic Nations" with no explanation. BritishWatcher (talk) 12:33, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree with Daicaregos, Joowwww and Teapotgeorge - the sentence in the intro should be as Daicaregos suggests, and the longer version suggested by Daicaregos should be included in the Politics and administration section (5th or 6th para). There is a fuller explanation already at Cornish self-government movement, which perhaps could be better signposted from this article than it is now (there is a link from the words "greater self-rule").  I also think a reference (or, if not, an external link) should be made in one of the articles to the Bernard Deacon essay referenced above.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:26, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Ghmyrtle you said yourself that the previous wording could lead to people thinking that it is universally accepted that Cornwall is a celtic nation. How can we only correctly inform people half way down the article, something that could be considered misleading shouldnt remain in the introduction. BritishWatcher (talk) 13:31, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I prefer the current wording on the article as it isnt such a misleading statement as "Cornwall is recognized as one of the six Celtic nations". so i oppose going back to the other wording unless we state its only recognized by some groups and people. BritishWatcher (talk) 13:38, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
 * As I said before, it's not perfect (personally I think it may be slightly misleading to many readers, but not seriously so), but there is no consensus to change it. Detailed clarification should go in the main text of this article, and in other related articles, rather than in the introduction.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:07, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Something that is slightly misleading to many readers should not be left in the introduction. I really do consider this very misleading, the rest of the article whilst i may disagree with parts is accurate now, but a statement in the introduction just saying "Cornwall is recognized as a Celtic Nation" is a huge deal and should not be kept if theres a chance it misleads people. I do not see how its unreasonable for a limited (dont need a huge list) explanation about who recognizes it.
 * If consensus can not be reached for a reasonable request like that, maybe we should go back to the previous wording of that sentence a week ago. Before it said Its considered a celtic nation by many residents and scholars (or something like that), use of the word many made that rather misleading but if we go to the proposed wording by Dai we have something totally misleading because it simply says its recognized as a celtic nation.
 * The current wording though, "Originally (and traditionally) a Celtic land and one of the Celtic nations" does take away the need for going into detail in the intro about who considers it a celtic nation although i think a mention of Cornish people / diaspora should be readded. BritishWatcher (talk) 14:22, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

The BBC, which is funded by British taxpayers (and whose governing body is the BBC Trust and was established by a Royal Charter), has the following to say on Celtic Nations....''Today the so-called Six Celtic Nations include Alba, Éire, Cymru, Mannin, Breizh and Kernow, or Scotland, Ireland, Wales, the Isle of Man, Brittany and Cornwall respectively. The Celtic languages of these nations are: an Gháidhlig (Scots Gaelic), Gaeilge (Irish), Cymraeg (Wales), Gaelg (Manx), Brezhoneg (Breton) agus Kernewek (Cornish).'' I would say that this is a fairly independant, mainstream and neutral source, yes? Talskiddy (talk)


 * Its certainly more of a mainstream and neutral source than ones listed previously and should be added as a ref, although i notice its only on the Irish part of the BBC website, with the choice to view it in English and it does have the nice "so called" in front of six celtic nations, which is slightly different to declaring Cornwall is recognized as a Celtic nation without any qualification. It was only added to the site a couple of weeks ago if that date is correct, id best get on and complain about how my license fee is being spent huh? :) BritishWatcher (talk) 20:25, 14 May 2009 (UTC)


 * (LOL!) You may also want to complain about the following statement I have found that was published on BBC webpage a few years ago ......Some progress has been made with the inclusion for the first time of an ethnic code (06) for the Cornish on the 2001 UK Census and the Cornish language was at last officially recognised by the government in 2002, followed by some government funding in 2005. Despite all of this at present Cornwall is the only Celtic nation (out of Cornwall, Brittany, Galicia, the Irish Republic, Isle of Man, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales) that has no form of effective self-government. Talskiddy (talk)
 * That one is a bit like wiki where people can make the articles and we all know wiki has its problems :), but i confess the Irish BBC "article" (if you can call it that as its written more like a blog) was a good find, although as i mentioned before its still not good enough in my view. BritishWatcher (talk) 21:08, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The BBC isn't a neutral source. It is a left-wing organisation that is notoriously biased against England and in favour of minorities of every type. Mowsbury (talk) 10:50, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Post on noticeboard
Following Daicaregos advice i have re added my post to the noticeboard. Administrators'_noticeboard/Geopolitical_ethnic_and_religious_conflicts  BritishWatcher (talk) 11:24, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Celtic nations 2
I added the information that had consensus to the Demographics section. However, I found a further reference by the Welsh Assembly Government. The WAG referred to eight Celtic nations and, as the Isle of Man Government referred to eight Celtic nations too, I split the sentence. It now says:

"Cornwall is the homeland of the Cornish people and diaspora, and is recognised by many people and organisations&mdash;alongside Brittany, Ireland, the Isle of Man, Scotland and Wales&mdash;as one of the six "Celtic nations", including the Celtic League, Cornish Stannary Parliament, Mebyon Kernow, Radio Telefís Éireann (RTÉ), Celtic Congress and the BBC, and, as one of the eight Celtic nations&mdash;the other two being Asturias and Galicia&mdash;by the Isle of Man Government and the Welsh Assembly Government.  "

I also added some brief info on the Festival Interceltique de Lorient:

"Cornwall is represented, as one of the Celtic nations, at the Festival Interceltique de Lorient, a celebration of Celtic culture held annually in Brittany. "

Hope everyone agrees the changes. Yours, Daicaregos (talk) 21:22, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree with the change, although i do not think you should list the BBC as recognizing Cornwall as a Celtic nation just because of that one article. Also we currently have an introduction saying its one of the Six celtic nations, further in the article we now explain some say theres six some say theres 8, again there is still a need for explaining WHO views cornwall as one of the six celtic nations in the introduction. BritishWatcher (talk) 08:40, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Bearing in mind that the current verison (of the full Celtic nations explanation, in the Demographics section) is not the same as that which had gained consensus previously, I ask all involved editors to confirm if they support or oppose the changes made. Thank you. Your support is much appreciated, BritishWatcher, thanks. With respect to your point on the BBC, although only one BBC reference has been cited in the article, several have been found. The others are here, here and here. There is also the BBC page you likened to a Wikipedia article here. Consequently, it is quite fair to reference the BBC, as they note Cornwall as a Celtic nation. With respect to your point on six/eight Celtic nations: Firstly, a reader will only have become aware that there are either six or eight Celtic nations once s/he has reached the Demographics section, wherein it is noted who considers there to be six Celtic nations and who eight. Secondly, if you think either this, or the intro, needs to be addressed, please construct the sentence you think would be appropriate and try to gain consensus here. Personally, I think that any expansion of the current intro version is unnecessary and would likely be too wordy for an introduction. But I could be pursuaded. Daicaregos (talk) 13:32, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Ok those sources justify including the BBC but i still think the sentence in the introduction needs clarification. A week ago it said something along the lines of ..It is considered one of the six celtic nations by many residents and scholars. Why can "by some... or by many.... not be added after saying its recognized as a celtic nation because it does not have universal recognition and as pointed out in the section you added to some think theres more than six. BritishWatcher (talk) 10:27, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Glad to have your agreement for the inclusion of the BBC. Regarding the intro: as I said in my previous post '... please construct the sentence you think would be appropriate and try to gain consensus here.' Daicaregos (talk) 12:04, 18 May 2009 (UTC)


 * a "nation" according to the Oxford English Dictionary's definition: a group united by factors that include "language, culture, history, or occupation of the same territory". --Talskiddy (talk) 08:35, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I would just like to see "by some organisations and residents" or "By many residents and organisations"... A week ago it was worded along those lines, but the "by.." was removed from the sentence which is why i have a problem with sentence. Especially as further down the article its explained some think theres more than six celtic nations, so its not a universal view that Cornwall is one of the six celtic nations. BritishWatcher (talk) 08:41, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
 * No objection here. I've made the change, which seems quite reasonable to me. Let's hope we can draw a line under this now. :) Daicaregos (talk) 09:52, 19 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I also agree with that. I think it's safe to say that there is consensus here that Cornwall does qualify as being described as a Celtic nation under the Wikipedia rule of verifiability. Perhaps references should be added after the statement to prevent any uncertainty about its verifiability in the future. --Joowwww (talk) 10:58, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree with Joowwww. Ghmyrtle (talk) 11:21, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Done. Please note that I've changed the intro from '...considered one of the six "Celtic nations..." to '...considered one of the "Celtic nations..." so it is supported by all the references. If you think it makes a difference please reinstate the word "six" and remove the Wales and Isle of Man governments references. Daicaregos (talk) 14:07, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks the changes made clears up the problem i had with the statement. BritishWatcher (talk) 17:06, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The whole debate about "Celtic" nations is just a load of baloney, now that it is known from genetic research that the English have approximately as much Celtic ancestry as the rest of the inhabitants of the British Isles. "Celtic" identity is just a self-designation used to make it appear that anti-English sentiment has a basis in ethnicity, when it is simply a political sentiment based on historical resentment. Mowsbury (talk) 10:53, 19 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your misdirected, misinformed and opinionated rant-filled contribution to a discussion that ended a month ago. --Joowwww (talk) 12:36, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * lol whilst i dont agree with everything Mowsbury said there is an element of truth to it. People from Scotland, Wales and Ireland often play on "celtic roots" to gang up against the English for what ever reason, its understandable considering our shared history i suppose. BritishWatcher (talk) 15:10, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
 * To anyone considering continuing this thread - may I offer this advice: Don't Feed The Trolls, no matter how pathetic, ill-informed, paranoid, or racist their views. Daicaregos (talk) 19:51, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Introduction
You may not have noticed, but an IP has deleted the entire third paragraph of the introduction, on the basis that "cornish national identity occupies a small proportion of the body of the article, therefore no justification for a substantial inclusion in introduction". I've reverted this twice. At first I assumed it was vandalism, but, worryingly s/he maintains it was not. S/he has refused to engage on the talkpage concerning this controvertial edit. Any thoughts? Daicaregos (talk) 10:58, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I have not seen any attempts at discussion, and would say the lines are indeed suitable for this article's intro, as it makes mention of Cornwall's culture, politics, identity and language. --Joowwww (talk) 16:51, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

pronunciation
This is rhotic. Is it W'pedia style to show pronunciation in RP or the local accent? If it is in the local accent, the last vowel might need to be a schwa. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.140.57.113 (talk) 11:52, 4 June 2009 (UTC) <!--

The question of constitutional status 04.06.2009
Additionally, some groups and individuals question the present constitutional status of Cornwall, doubting the legality of Cornwall's current administration as a county of England, and Cornwall's relationship to the Duchy of Cornwall.[citation needed] Another political issue is the rights of the Cornish people as a minority.

Some groups and individuals. No, a well-established political party, Mebyon Kernow, and many legal experts and UK political parties and bodies.

They do not doubt the legality of Cornwall's current administration, they dismiss it as being invalid.

The issue of the rights of Cornish people as a minority? Where, in Cornwall, in the UK? Very unclear. Also, what is the definition of Cornish then? Someone who has a Tre- surname (facetious example but to illustrate the point), someone born in Cornwall? This last phrases needs adjusting as it could be construed badly. I don't want to be a pain the """" about things but Wikipedia does seem to dismiss the Cornish and the Cornish movements as nothing other than fringe nationalists at time- at least on the English language pages.

Brythonek. 04.06.09


 * MK is a political party but it is a very minor one with very limited votes. This article goes out of its way to explain that some people in Cornwall question the constitutional status and seek greater autonomy. In my opinion it goes too far, but i accept the current text. Just compare this to the Wales and Scotland articles. Scotland currently has a nationalist government which wants independence and there is one reasonable sentence at the end of the intro saying Scotlands future continues to give rise to debate. Compare that to Wales where the independence issue isnt raised at all even though their nationalist party gets far more votes than MK. But here on the cornwall page we mention the greater autonomy and constitutional status in the intro despite this being a very small minority view.
 * I dont think there is any justification to be concerned about this article ignoring and dismissing these views. The Cornish people issue is also controversial but its covered in detail. BritishWatcher (talk) 19:54, 4 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree with BW, I also support Cornish devolution but I think going any further than the current text would be giving undue weight to the issues. The current wording in one form or another has survived for years and I don't see a reason to change it, I would much rather see the current wording than nothing at all. --Joowwww (talk) 08:54, 5 June 2009 (UTC)


 * How do you define a minor political party? And even if that be the case what difference does it make and why are they not mentioned? One might also note that several former Cornish MPs were also members of Mebyon Kernow, including Peter Bessell (Liberal Party), John Pardoe (Liberal Party), David Mudd (Conservative), David Penhaligon (Liberal Party) and currently Andrew George (Liberal Democrats)- taken from Wikipedia. Mebyon Kernow is also supported by Plaid Cymru and the SNP amongst others and one would hardly describe them as minor/fringe parties.

By using the word individuals the rather meagre article becomes even more subtley misleading, who are these individuals? Do you mean lawyers, historians, and judges? For these are all to be included in the list of individuals- but perhaps this would lend more credence to the Cornish case? As for the other somewhat "dismissive" comments:- I quote, "despite this being a very small minority view"- where are your stats for this? In a Morgan Stanley survey in Cornwall, 44% of those asked said they felt Cornish, rather than English or British. Although I admit this is not de facto connected to Cornish constitutional discussions it is peripheral evidence of a Cornish identity- intrinsically related to the constitutional question and hardly a minority view at 44%.

The final, if not key point is that the wording is poor. The Cornish constitutional lobby, for want of a better term, do not question/doubt Cornwall's constitutional status at all. This wording would never stand up in court. The constitutional lobby wholeheartedly reject Cornwall's county of England status without exception. There are no grey areas in this debate, it's county yes or county no- this article is worded in such a manner as to give the impression that perhaps there were many grey areas needing clarifying or even that some people in Cornwall want to adjust Cornwall's status as a county of England etc. Remember, the people who read these pages do not necessarily have the same knowledge as the people who read and write them and therefore they ought to be as clear and unambiguous as possible. Brythonek 05.06.09 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Brythonek (talk • contribs) 12:59, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

As the election results have just come through, the "minor" party, [Mebyon Kernow], have won 3 seats on councils, 3 more than the Labour party with none. Thus one might draw the conclusion that the ruling Labour party be a "minor" poltical party within a Cornish context. Brythonek —Preceding unsigned comment added by Brythonek (talk • contribs) 18:10, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Debate among the historians
"Debate among the historians The chronology of English dominance over Cornwall is unclear. Astonishingly there are no recorded ---etc. etc.-- -Domesday Book indicates that Cornwall was, it may reasonably be concluded that the land in question was "West Wales" (i.e. Cornwall), not "North Wales"." This section was edited out 2 days ago: would there be support for restoring it? There can be no doubt that a debate of this kind has occurred.--Felix Folio Secundus (talk) 04:49, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Cornwall & Wessex?
There also seems conflict of whether Cornwall was part of the Kingdom of Wessex or not. The Wessex article cetainly doesn't mention Cornwall being a part of it...but I have seen some websites and books that claim that Cornwall was absorbed into Wessex.--Talskiddy (talk) 11:18, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Good question:- I found this quoted from the Institute of Cornish Studies Cornwall was, in fact, the last part of Britain to accede to the Saxons in 838 AD. Cornwall (Kernow) became federated but very much apart from Wessex when the borders between Cornwall and Wessex were set in about 927AD by Athelstan.

Indeed, much more recently than that, legislation refers to Anglia, Cornubia etc. and so Cornwall always maintained its distinctive identity and rulership under the Duke of Cornwall who held in Cornwall identical powers to the ruling Monarch of England.

In 1066 William the Conqueror made Cornwall an earldom and in 1337 Edward, the 'Black Prince' was named as Duke of Cornwall by his father King Edward III. A title held by the monarch's eldest son to this day. Brythonek (talk) 18:44, 9 June 2009 (UTC) 

Brythonek. 09.06.09 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Brythonek (talk • contribs) 18:43, 9 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Cornwall's eastern border was, at the time of Ecgberht up until Athelstan, the Taw-Exe line. If Cornwall had been conquered in the 9th century, why did Cornwall have a recorded king towards the end of the 9th century and another named in the 10th. Even early Norman records (according to William of Malmesbury) told of the "last of Cornish royal line", a prince (or earl in Norman terms) called Cadoc. There is no way that the Kingdom of Wessex would have allowed this line to survive, and, of course, the ASC is totally silent on this matter. Had Wessex conquered Cornwall, and they tried for over 200 years, the Anglo Saxon Chronicle would not have failed to shout it from the rooftops, but it says nothing. Athelstan fixed the east bank of the Tamar as the boundary between Wessex and Cornwall in 936. Professor Malcolm Todd in his book "The South West to AD1000" maintains that the West Saxons conquered the Cornish and absorbed Cornwall into Wessex. Where's the proof of that ? The Anglo Saxon Chronicle actually states:- "The Westwealas (Cornish) and the men of Defnas (Devon) fought at Gafulforda"..... and that is all it says.... no mention of who won or who lost, whether the men of Cornwall and Devon were fighting each other or on the same side and certainly no mention of Ecgberht. Nor can one "rebel" against a foreign enemy - only an internal one. Todd has no foundation whatsoever for his assumption and the ASC is the only record of this battle. The Hingston Down battle in 838 is now thought to have taken place in Devon where the Wealas and the Danes were "put to flight" back across the wilds of Dartmoor. In 838 the whole of Dartmoor and the South Hams was still exclusively Cornish territory and the Exe-Taw line was the border between Cornish and West Saxon lands. It was nearly a full century later in 936 when King Athelstan fixed the east bank of the River Tamar as the boundary between Anglo-Saxon Wessex and Celtic Cornwall, as up until 927 the two peoples had lived together in Exeter "aequo jure" - as equals. The Burghs of Alfred's Wessex also stopped in Devon. There is no record of Athelstan taking his campaigns into Cornwall and it seems probable that Hywel, King of the Cornish, agreed to pay tribute thus avoiding further attacks and maintaining a high degree of autonomy. In 1013 Cornwall's enemy and Anglo-Saxon neighbour, Wessex was conquered by a Danish army under the leadership of the Viking leader and King of Denmark Sweyn Forkbeard. Sweyn annexed Wessex to his Viking empire which included Denmark and Norway. He did not, however, annex Cornwall, Wales and Scotland, allowing these "client nations" self rule in return for an annual payment of tribute or "danegeld". Between 1013-1035 the Kingdom of Cornwall, Wales, much of Scotland and Ireland were not included in the territories of King Canute the Great--Kedehern (talk) 20:53, 9 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm entirely neutral about the respective merits of the so-called "Cornish" and "Anglo-Saxonist" historical cases regarding the influence (or lack of it) of Wessex on Cornwall, and its timing, simply because I don't know enough about it. My point is only that the text which some editors are seeking to insert is both demonstrably non-neutral, containing WP:OR assertions and arguments, and also constitutes entirely unnecessary duplication. The battle involving the Cornish and the men of Devon is mentioned and discussed in two separate paragraphs.  That simply should not be the case in an encyclopedia article - it should be mentioned, the original text reported, and the different interpretations of historians reported.  This applies more generally in this section.  There is no need for a separate section "Debate among the historians" - the different views should be reported and referenced within the section headed "Conflict with Wessex".  Simply reverting a shortened, clarified text to a version which is repetitive and opinionated should not be an option.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 22:35, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

9 refs
9 refs for a single paragraph in the lead? C'mon that's going too far.  Aaroncrick (Tassie Boy talk) 01:43, 12 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I wouldn't normally have any refs in the lead paragraph, as they should all be in the body of the article. However, please read this talk page and let us know if you think they can be removed. Cheers, Daicaregos (talk) 07:14, 12 June 2009 (UTC)