Talk:Corwin of Amber

Title of page
I'd rather the page was called Corwin of Amber, he's never really referred to as 'Lord Corwin' in the books. User:213.60.0.173
 * Agreed, and I have moved the page. &mdash;Lowellian (talk) 09:23, May 15, 2005 (UTC)
 * He's never called Corwin of Amber, either. Since I'm clearing up elsewhere, I'll move it to Corwin (The Chronicles of Amber) Percy Snoodle 14:35, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

He's actually referred to as both, often as 'Lord Corwin of Amber'.

Merge from Grayswandir
I don't think the Grayswandir article could ever grow out of being a stub - but it might make a decent section here. Percy Snoodle 14:41, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Merge. --Koveras [[Image:Flag of Russia.svg|25px]] 15:50, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Organization
What do people think of the way I've organized the content here? If people want to follow this style, perhaps another section can be added to more fully go into detail about Corwin's experiences before the start of NPiA (Avalon etc). Ladlergo 16:25, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

I like the idea of a standard organization between the character pages. In my opinion, the character pages should be devoted to the personality and personal attributes of their subject rather than a plot summary. In other words, they should be attribute-driven rather than event-driven. For instance, the current version of Merlin's page concerns mainly things that would be true of him in any context, whereas currently Corwin's page devotes much space to summarizing plot events. Dslotman 27 April 2006
 * Yeah, I noticed that the changes I made to Corwin (most reorganizing plot sections that were already written) aren't structurally similar to the ones I made to Merlin. If you want to start using Merlin's format, we can do that; just remember that most of the content in Corwin's section will be rather stripped down. ;)
 * My suggestions include: Personal history (mostly pre-Chronicles), Sibling rivalry, Grayswandir, and Corwin's Pattern. Ladlergo 19:34, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Grayswandir - Is this OR?
After learning that Grayswandir and Werewindle were spikards, I wondered if they were turned into blades after the Pattern was written (and inscribed for extra power) or whether the Pattern was drawn from the spikards and they reflected their nature when transformed. (And what about the Jewel? It has the image of the Pattern inside.  Could it be a transformed spikard?)


 * The Jewel could not be a transformed spikard, as it is the left eye of Snake of Chaos. Yes this is the problem: is the Pattern shape taken from the Jewel, or is it taken from the blades of Grayswandir and Werewindle? The solution may be, that the general shape of Pattern is more ancient and exists in some abstractive way in every source of power? Interesting: at first we believe, that the Shadows appeared when the Pattern were created (as a result of balance of power), then it is told, that some shadows existed before, stabilized by the spikards. My idea: maybe the left eye of Snake was an opposition to his right eye and so the power was gathered in Snake (so, where the Unicorn appeared from and how did he steal the eye? Maybe the Unicorn was just another side of Snake?). After the left eye were stolen and Pattern created, the opposition appeared and the Shadows became more fixed (at least at the order half of multiverse) and the infinite war begun. Jurgi 83.13.137.42 18:11, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Was the cause vs. effect of the blades/spikards brought up in canon, or is this just my own speculation? Ladlergo 19:15, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

As far as I remember the idea that Grayswandir and Werewindle were spikards appears in short stories (written after the two cycles were completed). They were written by Zelazny, so there is no reason to reject them as "non-canon", however some readers only the novels consider canon. There is nothing said about the Jewel whether it was spikard or not. Jasra 19:24, 9 May 2006 (UTC)


 * My specific question is whether it was brought up (in the short stories) that the Pattern could have been a reflection of information contained in the spikards. Ladlergo 19:54, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

I do not remember any place when it was said straight forward. Jasra 13:13, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

The line about Corwin being unaware of what Grayswandir is is innacurate. He's the one who tells us about it afterall. I would fix it myself but I'm not sure how to reword it.
 * It is? I seem to recall him learning about it only in the Hall of Mirrors, after the first Chronicles. Ladlergo 18:10, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

No, he knew about it before then. Luke and we the readers find out about Grayswandir and Werewindle being spikards through his explanations in the Hall of Mirrors(at Oberon's bidding). In my mind he knew about it being a spikard since he gained it, but there's no question that he at least knew about it since before the story starts.

Wish he wouldn't have left so many loose ends. He made those short stories to tie them up I read. So he answers one unanswered question and brings up a dozen new ones. CultistBlue 15:08, 15 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Hrm. If he knew that it was a spikard, then it seems like he didn't know the full amount of power that a spikard has access to (unless his lack of sorcery training limited what he could do with it).  I suspect that Brand didn't know about Werewindle being a spikard, or else he would have been far more juiced up at the end than he actually was.  Any suggestions for the way to rewrite the section? Ladlergo 15:33, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps something like:

In the sixth released Amber short story, Hall of Mirrors, Grayswandir and its sister blade were revealed by Corwin to be transformed spikards. For reasons unknown neither Corwin or Brand used their powers during the Patternfall War.

And maybe a note about whether or not Brand knew about his blade being a spikard as well. I think it's pretty unlikely that he wouldn't know if Corwin did. CultistBlue 17:47, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I incorporated your ideas in the latest version here. I also reread the stories and updated their entries. Ladlergo 20:10, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Overview
The second paragraph of the Overview section discusses Corwin's internment in a pair of psych wards. This isn't even important to the rest of the books except as a plot device. Shall we remove it or change it in some way? I'm not sure it's even better to talk about how Corwin was consumed with pursuit of the throne and revenge, because then it becomes necessary to talk about how his goals changed. Thoughts? Dslotman 01:38, 10 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Things I think should be mentioned in the first paragraph: Approximate dates of when he arrived on Earth and when he left, his lack of memory, career as a soldier (that he had one, not all the times he fought), and that he had no contact with his family during this period. Basic stuff that's low on spoilers (all found out within the first few books), but is still important in reference to his development.
 * Things I think should be mentioned in the second paragraph: That there was a car accident (but not the cause), his escape from the mental hospital and back to Amber, and regaining his memories. This would lead up nicely towards his bid for the throne.
 * An additional sentence can say that his goal changes over the course of the books, see them for more details. Ladlergo 02:28, 10 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I couldn't figure out how to put the 1970's bit into the first paragraph in an elegant fashion. Here's what I have for the 2nd (unfinished).
 * When we meet Corwin, he has been living under the pseudonym Carl Corey in upstate New York in the 1970s. We swiftly learn that  he has been in-and-out of psychiatric hospitals and has most recently been kept heavily sedated in a private hospital after a car crash.  Disliking his diet of sedatives, Corwin forcibly checks out of the hospital and begins to search for those who committed him.  For the first time in centuries, Corwin contacts his family.  He swifly pieces hints together, realizes that Amber is his birthright, and sets out to claim the throne. Dslotman 01:51, 12 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't like the use of "we" but otherwise I think it's usable (with a few minor tweaks). Ladlergo 02:27, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I think it is gross and I don't like it at all. That's why I put it here rather than the article.  I agree that the use of we is awkward and poorly matches the rest of the article.  Overall it is wordy and overwritten; it feels like the tripe you'd read in a teen mag. Dslotman 14:52, 12 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Don't forget that the Amber books can be considered pulp fantasy. ;) Ladlergo 15:45, 12 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Here's my 2nd draft:
 * Living under the pseudonym Carl Corey in upstate New York in the 1970s, Corwin has been in-and-out of psychiatric hospitals. After a recent car crash, someone confined him in a private hospital.  Disliking his diet of sedatives, Corwin forcibly checked himself out and began to search for whoever committed him.  Using clues he gained from the hospital's administrative records, Corwin made contact with his family for the first time in centuries.  Surrounded by hints of home, his memory began to return.  Realizing that he has been kept ostracized by the disfavor of Eric, who sits as regent in Amber, Corwin resolved to reclaim his birthright and take the throne from Eric.  For an in-depth plot summary of Corwin's adventures following his time in the clinic, see Nine Princes in Amber, The Guns of Avalon, Sign of the Unicorn, The Hand of Oberon, and The Courts of Chaos. Dslotman 18:10, 12 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I think that sounds even more like pulp fiction. Maybe I'll take a crack at it tonight. Ladlergo 18:30, 12 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I trimmed some and added some, but I still haven't mentioned his plan to retake Amber. Any ideas in how I can incorporate that? Ladlergo 20:25, 15 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Wrap the entire 2nd paragraph into a single sentence and merge it into the first paragraph: "In the 1970s, Corwin makes contact with his family, regains his memory, and returns to Amber."  (We can't mention retaking Amber without explaining that Oberon's gone missing and Eric is regent.) Dslotman 16:31, 16 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually, in order, it would be makes contact, returns to Amber (Rebma) and regains his memory. But I'll change it. Ladlergo 16:41, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Stubness
Is this page still a stub? It seems quite extensive to me. I'd opt for removal of the stub tag. --Bakabaka 21:17, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Notable?
I tagged this with notability last year, now I've added a reception, but I feel it's somewhat borderline - one-two paragraphs in two articles. Can anyone dig something else to confirm notability of this? Ping User:Daranios, User:Rorshacma, User:Jclemens, User:Jclemens, User:ReaderofthePack... Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 04:25, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
 * yields...
 * 1 English professor at real college reflecting on the books as literature and discussing Corwin in some detail... but it looks like a specialist publication where reliability is not established.
 * 2 a piece by Theodore Krulik, who appears to be a Zelazny expert, describing the tarots as a memory device in the snippet view. I might try and get the full article if needed.
 * F. Brett Cox's Roger Zelazny (University of Illinois, 2021) ISBN 9780252052668 appears to have substantial commentary on all the major characters in Amber, as perused through Google Books.
 * 3 is a fascinating article that does mention Corwin... but spends far more time on Paul Atreides and Thomas Covenant. Nevermind, that's already in the article.
 * 4 PhD dissertation that at least mentions Corwin, but I can't see beyond the snippet view.
 * So, without getting into the paywalled sources themselves, we have indications that Corwin is discussed well and compared extensively to other contemporary heroes of fantasy literature. Does that help? Jclemens (talk) 05:05, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
 * I actually do have full access to the two articles that you can see the snippets of. The PhD dissertation does actually devote a number of pages throughout in pretty extensive analysis of Corwin, as well as comparing and contrasting him to earlier fantasy heroes such as Conan. The Krulik article is actually largely about Zelazny himself, whom he interviewed extensively over the years. It does discuss Corwin throughout, largely in the context of how Krulik interprets that events that happened throughout Zelazny's life influenced the books, and how elements of Corwin's story and development are reflected by Zelazny's own life. Rorshacma (talk) 06:07, 16 November 2022 (UTC)
 * @Jclemens @Rorshacma Thanks. Certainly there is no need to AfD this, and probably no need for notability tag? I won't object if anyone removes it. On a side note, note that a while ago I've prodded Merlin of Amber which was then redirected. I still haven't seen sources for notability of him (he is the series second protagonist, IIRC). Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 04:38, 17 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Yeah, he is. The second series is of far less interest to me; I think I've reread the original 5 books 4-6 times, but don't recall having ever reread the second five. Redirection is always better than deletion, and if someone wants to un-redirect and write more about him, great. I doubt I will ever. Jclemens (talk) 05:51, 17 November 2022 (UTC)