Talk:Così fan tutte

Comment
The title of this opera should not be abbreviated to "Cosi". The word means "thus". Would you abbreviate "As you like it" to "As?" There's also a different play with the title "Cosi," cited in the article. Even though the abbreviation is widely used in English, it should be avoided by giving the three word title or simply saying "the opera". Coughinink 14:47, 23 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes that's right. - Kleinzach 17:11, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Cosi, the Sandwich Place...
Cosi, the restaurant, did not take its name from the opera: all their in-store advertising suggests that (as the comment above mentions) they took it from the Italian meaning "Like This/That" or "Thus" or etc - IE, they mean it to have the connotation, "This is how it's done." 4.131.39.229 09:47, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually, from the FAQ of the restaurant chain's website: Q: Where does the name 'Così' come from? A: Così comes from the opera Così Fan Tutti, which was a favorite of our original owner. Coppelia 06:33, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Vocal ranges
The link in my edit summary is syntactically wrong; here's the correct one: http://coblitz.codeen.org/dme.mozarteum.at/DME/objs/ed/ucb08_306_2.jpg Michael Bednarek 07:51, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Don't see it in your summary, but doesn't this opera have a soprano aria with the highest reach of any in opera? If I recall correctly, it was because of who Mozart had available to sing the role. --Dan (talk) 16:59, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Maybe you're thinking of Der Hölle Rache kocht in meinem Herzen from The Magic Flute, first sung by Mozart's sister-in-law Josepha Hofer. Michael Bednarek (talk) 02:42, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I wondered whether "the highest reach" meant something more like "the the biggest required vocal range" - from A below middle C to the C two octaves higher - in which case the aria referred to might be Fiordiligi's "Come scoglio" (though I've no idea whether bigger ranges don't exist in any other opera). The singer who first sang the role {Adriana Ferrarese del Bene} was certainly famous for both her high and her low notes.  The article could certainly do with some commentary on the music. --GuillaumeTell (talk) 11:32, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I think what I mean is the highest note - although range would be interesting - I'm familiar with Der Hölle Rache; my daughter is a coloratura who can sing it, but I thought there was an aria in Cosi that was more challenging. --Dan (talk) 18:17, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
 * There are only four arias for soprano in Cosi, two for Fiodiligi and two for Despina. Neither of the latter's arias go very high (and the role is sometimes sung by a mezzo - Cecilia Bartoli, for example).  Fiordiligi's other aria ("Per pietà) doesn't, I think, go as high or as low as "Come scoglio", and it doesn't have as many leaps from high to low and vice versa, but it does have a lot of vocal decoration in the final section.  So both of her arias are "challenging", but not particularly, I think, in respect of high notes.  --GuillaumeTell (talk) 19:16, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh I wish I had more books with me, then I'd be able to do some of this myself ... in no particular order:
 * I recall reading (or do I?) that the way Come Scoglio is written was meant to satirise del Bene and her particular delight in showing off the strength of her chest voice
 * The versatile Ms Bartoli has sung Fiordiligi as well as Despina and Dorabella, which raises an interesting question or two, but not about Cosi
 * In the ensembles the "lyric bass" Gugliemo often has to sing substantial passages lower than "buffo bass" Don Alfonso. Gugliemo was first sung by the bass who had created Figaro and sang Leporello in the first Vienna performance of Don Giovanni.
 * According to our table the same guy sang both G and Don A No it doesn't! I should look more closely. Tut tut.
 * Have there really been no recordings worth mentioning made of Cosi since 1962? The Glyndebourne DVD from 2006 should be mentioned  almost - instinct 09:22, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

It's been marked in the article that Guglielmo was originally classified as a bass by Mozart. While it was initially played by the same actor who created the roles of Figaro and Leporello, both considered basses, a copy of the vocal score I have lists him as a baritone. Though he does have a similar range to those other roles, as the highest he goes in either of the two arias is an E. In many places, he sings a lower part than Don Alfonso, who is classified as a bass. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.152.162.205 (talk) 05:10, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Susanna's range in FIGARO is as wide as Fiordiligi's -- low A to high C. What is unusual in Fiordiligi's part is the way she keeps jumping from the lowest to the highest notes and back, even in the middle of a line.  One story is that the original singer nagged Mozart to "show off my range", and he retaliated by putting in all the jumps, making the part very difficult for her (and any other soprano) to sing. 71.56.66.132 (talk) 12:59, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
 * The story about Mozart and the irritating soprano for whom he wrote a difficult part by way of revenge is attributed to several of his operas and singers. It mostly gets attached to 'The Queen of Night' sung by his sister-in-law, who it will remembered, rejected Mozart's offer of marriage, Mozart being a mere musician... 220.240.36.67 (talk) 03:55, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Why link to Mike Oldfield single Don Alfonso (song) ?
I don't understand why there needs to be a disambiguation link to the Mike Oldfield single Don Alfonso (song). What's the coonection with Così fan tutte? Michael Bednarek 09:13, 30 September 2007 (UTC)


 * The position is that someone once wrote a short article about the character Don Alfonso in Così. Later, someone else turned it into a redirect to here.  So if you are an Oldfield fan and you type in "Don Alfonso", you end up here.  In an ideal world, I'd say that it would be better if the Don Alfonso redirect became the Oldfield single article and the dab link for the character pointed from there to here.  That would involve a lot of fiddling about, but feel free to do it! --GuillaumeTell 10:23, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the explanation. I think you're right how this should properly work, and I would do it, but not for a week or so as I'll be away. Michael Bednarek 10:54, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Is "In popular culture" any better than plain 'ol TRIVIA???
And should we include in these marginally relevant entries in the article?? Viva-Verdi 05:11, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Salieri
Which parts of the first act were composed by Antonio Salieri? the infamous rmx (talk) 19:08, 1 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't think any part of it is, although I see how the language in the article is confusing. I think the text refers to a separate version by Salieri that was never completed. Mlouns (talk) 19:19, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Who marries whom?
One oddity that the article doesn't mention is that the libretto doesn't explain how the four lovers are to pair up in the end -- just that "the men" forgive "the ladies". The stage director has to decide on the pairings. I've seen at least one production where the lovers keep swapping around during the concluding address to the audience, with the men trying to stand by their original fiancees and the ladies trying to keep their new choices. CharlesTheBold (talk) 00:50, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

As well, the article says various bowdlerized versions were used, but it doesn't what was cut, or why, or what the most used version were, or whether modern productions follow nineteenth century practise, or have even introduced bowdlerizations of their own. Point: don't bring something like this into the discussion unless you're going to discuss it. This pretends to give information, but really it doesn't. Delete or expand to a proper discussion.70.79.138.123 (talk) 05:07, 17 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't have a reference for this (I think it was an article in OPERA NEWS) but in the "bowdlerized version" Despina confesses the plot to the ladies at the beginning of act II. Thus the ladies don't really succumb to seduction, but are just playing their own trick on the men.  Presumably they also modified the ending so that the women do not have to beg for forgiveness. To be sure, this change doesn't account for the two best numbers in act II, the soliloquy and duet when Fiordiligi confesses her guilt feelings over betraying her original lover. 71.56.66.132 (talk) 12:59, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

Trio
There is a famous trio for three voices in this opera that was used in the 1971 film Sunday Bloody Sunday starring Glenda Jackson. Where is to be found please? I cannot find it in the plot line. Thanks  SmokeyTheCat    •TALK•  17:13, 24 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Do you mean "Soave sia il vento"? That's what the film article says, and it's in the plot description here: act 1, scene 1. Michael Bednarek (talk) 02:18, 25 February 2009 (UTC)



Moderate difficulty?
An IP has added "It is a favorite for amateur and semiprofessional productions because although each of the main characters (three men, three women) has one big solo, no piece is of more than moderate difficulty..." to the Performance History section. Really? Come scoglio is of moderate difficulty? Un'aura amorosa? Ah, lo veggio? And Don Alfonso doesn't have any big solo. I refrained from removing this section (for now) in case some of it is salvageable. --GuillaumeTell 21:13, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Removal of performance artist link
I have removed the link to the performance artist Cosey Fanni Tutti from the top of the page. The names are too different in spelling and sound for any likely degree of confusion to occur. It appears to be promotion of another article. I am skeptical about leaving in the link to the film as it registers in a search as Cosi fan tutte (film). I will leave this in place for now awaiting opinions (Ewooll (talk) 10:30, 10 November 2011 (UTC))

Title
A more demotic translation would be "They all do it."Lestrade (talk) 16:07, 4 February 2013 (UTC)Lestrade


 * Any translation needs to accommodate the fact that the Italian word 'tutte' is feminine, which is undoubtedly part of Da Ponte's intended meaning. So the English word 'they' is not adequate.  It needs to be 'all women' or 'the women all', or some such phrase.86.183.245.249 (talk) 00:33, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

Would "all women do it" be too crude?173.72.115.153 (talk) 01:07, 5 August 2018 (UTC)De Mikeal Tibbetts


 * No, I don't think so. "Thus do they all", the current translation, does not convey the fact that "tutte" is feminine plural and using"thus" like that is antiquated. I will change it.Smeat75 (talk) 11:36, 5 August 2018 (UTC)


 * How about saying, not in the first sentence, that is has been translated different ways (there must be sources of performances in English, and how it was announced then), and what it literally means? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:39, 5 August 2018 (UTC)


 * This opera was not performed very much in English speaking countries until the mid 20th century and when it was the title was usually kept in Italian as it is hard to translate accurately. If you want to expand discussion of how the title is best translated, go ahead.Smeat75 (talk) 12:17, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

Instrumentation section: timpani; clarinets; trumpets; horns
Would be nice if someone having the score added what pitch clarinets, trumpets and horns the score shows (in particular where are B natural clarinets used?).

Also where does it use timpani? If indeed they're always tuned G-C then it doesn't use timpani a whole lot (only in sections in C major or C minor).

Contact Basemetal   here  13:10, 20 May 2013 (UTC)


 * It's in Fiordiligi's aria "Per pietà, ben mio, perdona" (key is E major, which certainly explains the use of B clarinets!). Score. In most modern editions this is made into a part for A clarinets. The NMA keeps the notation for the (pretty much nonexistent now) B clarinet. Double sharp (talk) 15:22, 24 January 2014 (UTC)


 * The NMA states in the foreword:
 * "Klarinetten: Mozart schreibt in zwei E-dur-Nummern verschieden gestimmte Klarinetten vor: in No. 10, dem Terzettino "Soave sia il vento", Klarinetten in A, dagegen in Fiordiligis Rondò "Per pietà, ben mio, perdona" (No. 25) Klarinetten in H. Im Gegensatz zur NMA-Edition des Idomeneo (II/5/11), in der in den Nummern 15 und 19 die von Mozart verlangten H-Klarinetten als A-Klarinetten wiedergegeben worden sind, übernehmen wir in No. 25 die H-Klarinetten. Der Grund, warum Mozart in den beiden genannten Nummern in der Stimmung der Klarinetten differenziert, mag darin liegen, daß der weichere Klang der tiefer gestimmten A-Klarinetten dem Charackter von No. 10 eher entspricht als die H-Klarinette, die nun ihrerseits in No. 25 richtig eingesetzt zu sein scheint." (So he uses B clarinets in Idomeneo, too! It's a matter of timbre.) Double sharp (talk) 15:36, 24 January 2014 (UTC)


 * The places in Idomeneo where the B clarinet is used are No. 15 (p.283ff in NMA) and No. 19 (p.352ff). Double sharp (talk) 13:41, 25 January 2014 (UTC)


 * I finally removed the tuning from the timpani, as it is nonsense. What of the first act finale with the timpani tuned in D and A? Double sharp (talk) 05:38, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

'Popular culture'
There isn't a section on the influence of the opera on modern books, plays, etc. The case that comes to mind is the play and film 'Closer', which follows the opera in revolving around a couple swapping partners, and explicitly references the opera at a crucial point in the plot.86.183.245.249 (talk) 00:38, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

First London performance
The article says this:
 * "The first British performance was in May 1811 at the King's Theatre, London."

But which theatre was this? The article for Her Majesty's Theatre currently has this, in the lead:
 * "In the early 19th century, the theatre hosted the opera company that was to move to the Theatre Royal, Covent Garden, in 1847, and presented the first London performances of Mozart's La clemenza di Tito, Così fan tutte and Don Giovanni."

Can these two claims be reconciled or corrected in any way? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:33, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. —Community Tech bot (talk) 22:47, 22 January 2021 (UTC)
 * W. A. Mozart - Così fan tutte - Act 1 - 01. Ouvertura (Böhm).flac