Talk:Costermonger/Archives/2019

Global Coverage for Costermonger?
It is difficult to imagine a term that is more uniquely British than “costermonger”. Yet, the article has recently been tagged with a header stating that the article requires a more global perspective. The edit summary accompanying this tag reads “To read this article, you'd think they were an English concept only, yet I've first encountered the concept in a Russian context”. Although the tagger claims that he/she encountered the concept in a Russian context, no evidence was provided to support such an assertion. Apparently, Wikipedia does not require the same standards for tagging as it does for the development of articles.

The main reason why this article deals with the English context, is because the concept is uniquely British, and the term, costermonger, is associated with Britain’s most populous cities, most notably London, where the largest number of costermongers was to be found in the 18th and 19th centuries. To a lesser extent, costermongers were also found in certain British colonies including the Americas and parts of Australasia.

The Russian language has no equivalent to “costermonger”. An English to Russian translation of the term, “costermonger” gives the following: “уличный торговец пищевыми товарами” or similar,, but when this is back-translated, it is given as “street merchant of food goods.” This is strong indication that the Russian language has no exact equivalent to the term, costermonger and relies on the generic term “street merchant” or “street vendor” as a suitable equivalent.

The term, costermonger, does not translate well into other European languages. For example, the English to Spanish translation of costermonger is “vendedor ambulante” which literally means “itinerant vendor” or “mobile vendor”. Similarly, the English to French translation is “le marchand de quatre-saisons which literally means merchant of four seasons; and in German, costermonger translates as Straßenhändler“ which, when backtranslated means street seller. In spite of a reasonable search, no reference to costermongers in any Russian context could be found. The closest that was identified was an article dealing with snobbery in various European cities including Russia, but the author used English attitudes to London costermongers as a point of comparison with Russian attitudes to various Russian occupational groups. There is also a newspaper item about the Russian ballet dancer, Mikhal Barishnakov, impersonating a Cockney costermonger, but it is doubtful that the instance of a Russian-born performer playing the role of a London-based cultural figure counts as a “Russian context”.

In any case, the context in which any individual editor first encountered a concept is simply not relevant to any historical account of an occupational group. Wikipedia has approximately 5,000 active editors. If articles were required to account for the context in which each of these editors first encountered a given concept, then the article would become unnecessarily wordy, unfocussed, boring, lacking in historical merit and irrelevant to the majority of readers. All that is relevant is what reliable sources have to say on a topic, rather than when, where and how editors encountered these sources.

On the Britishness of the term (with sources)  Although the British origin of the term, costermonger, is already canvassed in the article, here are a few new references and quotations that should dispel any lingering doubts as to the Britishness of the term: The term costermonger is formed from two archaic English words, namely “costerd or costard + monger costermonger”. The two words were merged into a single word, namely “costermonger” sometime around the 16th century. Oxford Dictionary Online, https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/costermonger;

Dictionary definitions

A costard (or costerd) is a Middle English word used to describe a native British apple; a small fruit with distinctive ribbin g on its outer surface. The term, “monger” is a Middle English term used to denote a vendor or merchant (e.g. ironmonger, fishmonger) and its etymology is unclear. It may have come from the French or the Latin.

Most reliable dictionaries note that the term, costermonger, is British and of Middle English derivation.

Primary and secondary sources

Primary sources often attest to the peculiarly British nature of the concept of a costermonger. For example, Frank Reynolds published a series of articles entitled, 'Peculiarly British Types' in the Illustrated London News (1910) which included both photographs and written descriptions of various costermongers going about their daily business. A number of general histories also note that the term, costermonger, is uniquely British. Stephanie Spencer’s analysis of Rejlander's photography points out that costermongers are a “peculiarly British type”. Stephanie Spencer, “O. G. Rejlander's Photographs of Street Urchins,” and Laura Byrne Paquet’s broad survey of English shopping habits also points out that:
 * “The peculiarly British word, costermonger,’’ dating from the early sixteenth century itself derives from an even older word, costard monger, meaning apple seller. “ [emphasis added]

Yet other scholars note that British costermongers developed a unique identity, culture, dress code and their own dialect. Some scholars go as far as suggesting that costermongers constituted a distinct social class within London society.

This unique identity is amply discussed in the article itself, so there seems little value in reiterating the argument and its principal sources here.

Usage of the term, costermonger, outside Britain

During Britain’s period of colonial expansion, usage of the term costermonger was exported to various British colonies, including the Americas and Australasia. However, by that time, usage of the term was waning. Instead, the colonies adopted other idiosyncratic terms to describe street vendors. These terms often emerged from the colonies’ distinct environment and population patterns. In the US, for example, the term such as Araber gradually replaced the term, costermonger because many peddlers were of Middle Eastern origin. The uniquely British origin of the term defies precise translation into Russian or any other European language. It is more likely that other languages have developed their own idiosyncratic terminology to describe street vendors. And, given that Wikipedia already has articles on other types of street vendor, including; hawkers, Peddlers, Chapman and Huckster, each with varying degrees of global coverage, it does not make sense to expect that the article on the British term, costermonger, should also provide some explanation of the global context.

Thoughtless tagging, as displayed on this article, and which, sadly, is all too prevalent on Wikipedia, is problematic because it sets up an impossible challenge. It is disruptive in that it misleads other well-intentioned editors or readers who might attempt to act on the implicit advice by globalizing the article, but will soon find that they have been sent on a wild goose chase. Quite simply, anyone would be wasting their time trying to globalize that which cannot and should not be globalized! A peculiarly British concept such as costermonger has no parallel in any non-British culture. The article cannot be “globalized” – and consequently, the tag can never be addressed and must remain there in perpetuity.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 175.32.70.128 (talk) 02:43, 27 February 2019 (UTC)


 * I agree that costermonger is a a category of street vendor in Britain, so it is reasonable for this article to focus on Britain. If other countries have a corresponding concept of street vendors who specialise in fruit and vegetables then this article could be expanded and retitled Street vendor (fruit and vegetables). In potentially-contentious cases the onus should be on the tagger to establish the basis for the tag, preferably by citing a few sources on the talk page. : you added this tag, please respond. Verbcatcher (talk) 20:13, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
 * So no country in the world has a history of street vendors selling food, except the UK? The concept is preposterous, and the fact that the term is the focus of the massive wall of text demonstrates that 175.32.70.128 doesn't understand what an encyclopedia does.  Encyclopedias cover concepts, regardless of the names used for them; if you care about the term in particular, you need to go write a dictionary.  Nyttend (talk) 01:51, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
 * : Your response is as dismissive as it is disingenuous. No-one has suggested that the history of street vendors selling food is exclusive to the UK. The article in question, as its title suggests, is not about street vendors in general; instead it is concerned with a distinct sub-category of street vendors, known as costermongers. This group was unique to England’s most populous cities, primarily London and Manchester, and to a lesser extent some British colonies. Other Wikipedia articles, as the so-called “massive wall of text” indicates, deal with the concept of street vendors in general, rather than costermongers in particular. These general articles include Hawker (trade), Peddler, Huckster, Rag-and-bone man etc.


 * Costermongers represent a particular type of street vendor; a group with a distinct identity and culture. As the article discusses, costermongers were important for social, cultural and political reasons Their culture was the source of inspiration for art, literature, music and photography The organised arm of the costermonger trade, the Costermongers League, is believed to be an important early example of a trade union. Historians have described costermongers’ political activities as the “vanguard of resistance” in Victorian Britain.


 * The article’s focus on Britain is entirely appropriate for an article about costermongers. Wikipedia has ample precedence for articles dedicated to sub-categories of street vendor, operating in specific localities. These include: Arabber (United States); Zabbaleen (Egypt); Karung guni (Singapore). Given their importance to British socio-cultural history, British Costermongers are just as worthy of an article documenting their extensive history, which dates from at least the 16th century and possibly much earlier. The Encyclopedia Britannica, for instance, has published an account of costermongers in virtually every edition since the 1920s. There is no good reason for Wikipedia to neglect an article on costermongers in particular, nor to confuse it with other articles documenting street vendors in general.


 * Two editors have raised legitimate concerns about the appropriateness of a tag requesting global coverage for a term (or concept) that is uniquely British. Rather than respond to the specific issues raised, you have dismissed these concerns with the advice that the relevant editors should go and contribute to a dictionary instead of Wikipedia! The practice of editors using extraordinary methods to defend poor quality edit decisions is commonplace on Wikipedia. Frankly, I expected an editor, who is also an administrator, to give serious consideration to the issues involved and provide a reasoned response.

To globalise or not to globalise??
The "globalize|article|2=United Kingdom|date=January 2019" tag added in January, 2019. Tag deleted since requests for more information, particularly references for the alleged claim that costermongers can be found in a Russian context, have met with a dismissive attitude. The most pertinent sentence in the article is the opening sentence: “Costermonger, coster, or costard is a street seller of fruit and vegetables, in London and other British towns.” For further evidence for the British context, see the discussion above.

Requests to the editor who added this tag, to supply references for the alleged “Russian context” for costermongers, have been ignored for almost four months. The only response to date failed to deal with the substantive issue, but instead sought to denigrate and dismiss the two editors who raised concerns about the addition of the tag. 175.32.56.121 (talk) 02:41, 1 June 2019 (UTC)