Talk:Counterculture of the 1960s

Sonny Barger
I am questioning the inclusion of Sonny Barger on the list of counterculture figures. Though there are many reasons why I feel he does not belong, the most important is that Barger was a criminal figure at the time. Next, he was not just referred to as criminal by the establishment in order to persecute him. He ordered the deaths of civilians who were not part of the power establishment. His crimes were not political but motivated by greed and power. That is to say, Barger was out for himself and not out to help society. Finally, it is my position that the counterculture movement was at its core an intellectual movement. Yes, we find much that was not, but the case of Barger and the Hell's Angels I feel is sharply outside of the central tenets. I can expound on my argument if necessary. However, I humbly submit to the editors of this page to remove his name from the list. Further, if there are any other individuals listed, who I am not familiar with, who were not revolutionaries but merely exalted thugs and false heroes, I recommend that we remove them as well. If what I say is not true, or if I have missed some key piece of information, then I will gladly drop my claim. JanetWand (talk) 01:29, 23 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Hi Janet, I was going to let this go until I read your rationale here on the talk page. Yes, Barger was a "criminal" in the eyes of the law at the time. So were a substantial measure of the others on the list, one way or another, and that's the whole dig, isn't it? (look them up!) I would not, for a moment, discount Sonny Barger's intelligence, or his general capacity for learned thinking. Barger was there with Thompson when HS wrote his most important works. He was there all up and down the west coast during the era (when not in jail), hanging out with many of the people who are on the list. He was there at Altamont. I could go on. It's true that Mr. B. would probably not choose to be part of the list. In any event, he remains exceptionally representative of a very real aspect of the counterculture, however distasteful that aspect may be to some. Balance of viewpoints is what we should seek in all things historical. Don't you agree? Best Wishes! Learner001 (talk) 23:48, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. I would only mention that he had Thompson beaten pretty badly over money, if it makes a difference.  I mean, its not like he was part of the same group as Hunter if he is ordering him beaten.  Even if he didn't order the beating, what was his response to it?  This incident may have robbed America of an American novel and arguably one of the most important new styles to come out of the counterculture.  Those aren't cheap instruments to be kicked in the skull.  I'm sure Barger is intelligent, and I agree that being a criminal could not by itself impeach anyone in the group, of course.  I will let him ride in the list, just to avoid the unpleasantness of crossing him, if, and only if, you agree in light of the new information.  JanetWand (talk) 14:49, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I never said he was a nice guy. There are a lot of people on the list who were not nice guys, including, some might argue, Thompson. However distasteful, Barger is simply a representative figure of one aspect of the era. Manson should probably be on the list, e.g., but I'm certainly not gonna put him there. Best wishes! Learner001 (talk) 17:50, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
 * @JanetWand I believe that I concur when I say," He is definitely notable, but just, not in the big picture deserve with Che, Ghandi...". 2600:1700:886C:D000:4E70:D8FA:2689:F0EC (talk) 05:32, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

Ambiguous first sentence
"The counterculture of the 1960s was an anti-establishment cultural phenomenon that developed throughout much of the Western world in the 1960s and has been ongoing to the present day." This appears to be self-contradictory. The 60s counterculture was (past tense) xyz, but has been ongoing (present tense) to the first day. This certainly warrants rewording or further clarification. Cheers, thorpewilliam (talk) 09:49, 3 December 2022 (UTC)