Talk:Counterfeit/Archives/2013

Merge
Should this article be merged with counterfeiting (another stub)? -- Notheruser 04:50 Apr 4, 2003 (UTC)


 * Indeed it should. I didn't see that article. If you search for "counterfeit", the article "counterfeiting" does not come up as a title match - that is strange. --snoyes 04:55 Apr 4, 2003 (UTC)

Counterfeit Food and Medicine
It was brought to my attention that people are counterfeiting eggs in China, yesterday. [ http://www.ispub.com/ostia/index.php?xmlFilePath=journals/ijto/vol2n1/eggs.xml#documentHeading-TheHuman-MadeEggs ] These man-made eggs can lead to dementia. Also, the second article mentions about counterfeit chicken eggs that can lead to blindness. This is alarming and it should definitely be written here that there are counterfeit foods. Before hearing about the eggs, I'd heard about counterfeit medicine, also counterfeit baby formula (I believe I heard about these on the BBC). Seriously, let's get on the ball with non-currency counterfeiting. 24.123.198.38 18:28, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Article only deals with Counterfeit Currency
I think that this article is too focused on Currency. With an estimated market value of $600 Billion Dollars (http://www.havocscope.com/Counterfeit/counterfeit.htm), its clear that the counterfeit goods market is huge. I was simply wondering why other products are not included in this article. I placed a comment on the Couterfeit US Dollars page, and it seems that there really is no difference between the two pages. This is my first time I'm contributing to Wikipedia, so I didn't want to just add things into the article without checking with you guys first.

I think that we could add a lot more products into the article, or at the very least, add some more information that deals with issues other then currency. Like Movie Piracy, Music piracy, etc...

What do you guys think? Joe Lee.
 * No different to the Counterfeit US Dollars page? I don't think that that page mentions the Portuguese Banknote Crisis, the Hungarian counterfeiting operation, Operation Bernhard, the Icelandic and Irish postage stamp counterfeits, the Chinese banknote design, etc. That said, I'd certainly have no objection to the article being expanded to cover the counterfeiting of goods. -- Arwel (talk) 02:07, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't mean to say that there was no difference. I guess what I was trying to say is that it seems like the whole counterfeit section only deals with currency, with the exception of the counterfeit drugs article. I'll try and write something up, and then I'll look forward to your guys help in editing. Thanks. Joe

How can you tell??
Did I get this correct??

Look at the back of the bill. You can tell whether it is a counterfeit by whether there are any hard-to-see curves that look like string. If none are present, this means it is a counterfeit. Also, has anyone gone to the Discuss this page at the $50 bill article??

Here is some text I took off the article page:


 * (rough notes) two classes of counterfeiting - one to deceive as to the content (gold coins, pharmaceuticals) and one to deceive as to the source (paper currency, software)

--Yath 08:42, 23 May 2004 (UTC)

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The quotation "the involuntary privatisation of banknote printing" is a lovely one. But could we have a citation for it? A Google search on those terms reveals nothing new.
 * Hmm, tricky, it happened before every newspaper got online, so I'm not surprised Google couldn't find it (other than 48 mirrors of Wikipedia!). You'd have to go through Irish newspapers of the 1980s, I suppose, though I clearly remember the quotation being reported at the time. It was a pity, because the series B £20 was a particularly nice design in my opinion -- W.B. Yeats on the front and a nice Irish wolfhound on the back, in a nice shade of blue. It was also the highest denomination banknote one could legally take out of the country... -- Arwel 13:05, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Another fine theme is quotations from the counterfeit banknotes. It may be have been another urban legend, as I have not seen any such personally, but in 1980s there was a widespread story about Soviet roubles with changed text. At that time, roubles were heavily covered in dense script (using languages of all 15 "member states" of USSR), so it was not hard to miss that in the place where it should have been written "counterfeit is a crime legally punished by (bla-bla-bla)" the text said actually "ours are not worse than yours" (&#1085;&#1072;&#1096;&#1080; &#1085;&#1077; &#1093;&#1091;&#1078;&#1077; &#1074;&#1072;&#1096;&#1080;&#1093;). Another version (allegedly) said "read it through and pass it to your comrade" (&#1087;&#1088;&#1086;&#1095;&#1080;&#1090;&#1072;&#1081; &#1080; &#1087;&#1077;&#1088;&#1077;&#1076;&#1072;&#1081; &#1090;&#1086;&#1074;&#1072;&#1088;&#1080;&#1097;&#1091;), a common note on the wartime leaflets. --Oop 13:21, Jan 29, 2005 (UTC)

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It should be possible to prevent counterfeiting of currency or bearer bonds by inscribing a code, the mathematical properties of which have to satisfy certain parametric tests known only to the issuer and discoverable by the counterfeiter only following an impractical amount of effort. I have no idea as to why this is not done. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.17.168.171 (talk) 02:27, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Counterfeit American goods
This section doesn't seem very NPOV. It could do with being generalised to cover western goods rather than purely american as well. I'll try to have a look at this. --Sully 12:34, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Original source: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/01/26/60minutes/main595875.shtml Removed the section. Ae7flux 17:29, 5 October 2005 (UTC)


 * I just added some information on the counterfeit issue for other countries. It wasn't much, but hopefully its a start.

Not just USA notes
It would be usefull if there was not just information on US bank notes and their anti-counterfeiting methods. Such as the Australian and Brazilian plastic notes. Australian minting methods are known to use some of the most sofisticated anti-conterfeit methods and the Australian mint prints money for many countries in the Asia Pacific region. I believe that the Netherlands have recently commisioned the Australian mint to produce their currency.

Who is the Author?

 * See Citing Wikipedia, and don't delete large sections of articles like exteral links and links to articles in other language versions of Wikipedia - that's considered vandalism which can get you banned from editing. -- Arwel (talk) 03:30, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

CDs and DVDs
Why aren't there sections on counterfeit CDs and DVDs? I think it would be a worthwhile thing to put in.Tom 22:16, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

magnetic strip
US currency is supposed to have magnetic strips to prevent counterfeiting, but the article does not mention this. DyslexicEditor 04:50, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Clipping
''Traditionally, anti-counterfeiting measures involved including fine detail with raised intaglio printing on bills which would allow non-experts to easily spot forgeries. On coins, milled or reeded (marked with parallel grooves) edges are used to show that none of the valuable metal has been scraped off. This detects the shaving or clipping (paring off) of the rim of the coin. However, it does not detect sweating, or shaking coins in a bag and collecting the resulting dust. Since this technique removes a smaller amount, it is primarily used on the most valuable coins, such as gold.''

The milled edges on coins are to prevent the removal of the coin's material (since it had an intrinsic value) - not as a method of protecting against counterfeiting. But I am loathe to remove this part of the article since it is interesting 06:45, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Counterfeiting and central banking?
Just wondering if there's a relationship between illegal counterfeiting and money printing done by central banks. Since it's impossible to print a gold coin, I'm led to believe that central banks are nothing but legalized counterfeiters who pretend to be acting in our 'best interest' in order to gain complete power over our money.

I just saw your post on reeded coins. Was it not the roman gov that first debased their currency, and that is the reason we use reeded coins? I think it's pretty important to show that governments can be just as guilty of counterfeiting as the mafia.
 * Did you read the article? The banks are not counterfeiting because they are not conducting forgery. (Unless the US Reserve starts to produce Euros or something of course). Monopoly money for example, is not counterfeit either... Note that if the mafia wanted to produce their own currency, they could do so. They would not be counterfeiting. (P.S. The issue of the fiat currency and the gold standard are completely seperare issues unrelated to counterfeiting) Nil Einne 20:58, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Counterfeit Soft Drinks?
I heard a news report about people in Russia dropping dead from drinking counterfeit alcohol. That gets me worrying about the Coca-Cola I buy at my local shops which has Cyrillic labelling. I live in the UK and so expect this to be written in English. You can assume I don't trust local shop owners to provide me with the genuine article, especially if the dodgey stuff is cheaper.


 * With soft drink, you should be more concerned about washing the can or bottle before drinking. The worst thing that can happen by drinking fake soft drink is not with the content (sugar water is the usual "worst" thing that can happen), but having the container produced in an unsanitary condition. While many people wash vegetables and fruits, few realize that can or bottle which drinks comes in could be dirty.--Revth 09:04, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Counterfeit vs bootleg
This article doesn't appear to explain very well the usage of the two terms and the variety of things that is called counterfeiting. Pirated DVDs, CDs etc are sometimes call counterfeit even when the purchaser is usually well aware that they are not original copies and they don't even look like they are. Counterfeiting does happen, especially of stuff like MS software hence the fancy CDs and stuff although even in these cases, it may not always be intended to fool the purchaser but instead those responsible for investigation copyright violation. Also, in Asian countries in particular, while true counterfeit goods (i.e. with the intention to deceive the purchase) can be a problem in some instances, often goods (such as clothes, watches etc) are sold with the purchaser fully aware that they are similarly not 'legitimate' versions. Yet rarely is this distinction made. Nil Einne 21:17, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

The law does not tend to make the distinction. E.g. in the UK hte penalty for using a Trade Mark without permission is upto 10 years (same as for fraud) regardless of the quality of the goods. (It is regarded as theft from the trade mark owners)

Chip remarking
Wiki needs a chip remarking article and this should be linked to from here. Nil Einne 21:22, 13 August 2006 (UTC)You should say that counterfeiting money is harder to make than coins.

Counterfeit money needs a definition
Under the "counterfeit money" section, it goes into the history of counterfeit money without explaining why producing it is a crime. My thinking is that it's because the counterfeits ends up outside of state control and/or because inflation may result, not to mention the lack of any good or service being exchanged for the money produced. That might not be the whole story, though, so I thought I'd bring it up. Are there any other reasons why counterfeit money might be prohibited? Kennard2 03:21, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Need to add Emanuel Ninger to 'famous counterfeiter' list
He even has a Wikipedia article already, so just a mention and link would suffice.

Counterfeit Toothpaste
There have been a lot of news reports lately about counterfeit toothpaste. I guess it's not really that notable, but for some reason I find the concept of someone taking the time to counterfeit a tube of Colgate to be pretty funny. Does anyone think it belongs in the article? --70.81.251.32 04:05, 6 July 2007 (UTC)


 * "Taking the time to counterfeit a tube of Colgate"? There's not a whole lot of time involved; they just get any white substance and put it in a tube. It could very well be poison; they don't care. Same goes for counterfeit medicine, milk and eggs. Just watch this: (Huey45 (talk) 01:24, 15 May 2010 (UTC))

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0US7JEfhsrA

Counterfeit in the media
There should be a section in reference to movies, books, etc. A suggested entry would be:

Books: "Day After Tomorrow" By Mack Reynolds(originally in Analog titled: "Status Quo") In which the main plot is a revolution which uses counterfeiting as not only a means but also an end.

---Wolfe (talk) 20:21, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

Debasement
The editor seems to confuse debasement with counterfeiting in the paragraph below:


 * "Counterfeiting is probably as old as money itself. Before the introduction of paper money, the main way of doing it was to mix base metals in what was supposed to be pure gold or silver. Also, individuals would "shave" the edges of a coin so that it weighed less than it was supposed to, a process known as clipping. This is not counterfeiting but the exponents could use the precious metal clippings to make counterfeits. A fourrée is an ancient type of counterfeit coin, in which a base metal core has been plated with a precious metal to look like its solid metal counter part."
 * Please, someone, make the appropriate corrections. --Ludvikus (talk) 03:05, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Infrared Anti-counterfeiting measure
I was experimenting with a webcam I modified to image only in the infrared spectrum, and noticed that Hungarian banknotes, such as the 200HUF and 1000HUF notes have broad swaths of blank paper only visible in IR, which are covered by artwork in visible light. I looked googled this on the internet, and found that several countries, such as Colombia, the UK, US, and even the EU seem to include IR-only "blank" areas on their banknotes.

Do you think this should be included in the article, and if yes, where?

Thanks in advance, ThunderBird (talk) 18:50, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Effects on Society
Isn't everything under the effects on society heading the same? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gharkib (talk • contribs) 01:18, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Counterfeiting of goods is done to substitute the market, not merely fool the consumer.
The article has this to say: "Counterfeit clothes, shoes and handbags from designer brands such as Louis Vuitton, Chanel and Gucci are made in varying quality; sometimes the intent is only to fool the gullible buyer who only looks at the label and doesn't know what the real thing looks like, while others put some serious effort into mimicking fashion details." I believe some case law and articles support the point that consumers are not being fooled at all. You know you're getting a knock off when you buy a Rolex watch for $50 at a flea market. You just hope that it looks real enough to fool your peers. PTOmac (talk) 16:13, 12 September 2008 (UTC)


 * This article shouldn't try to legitimise counterfeiting. That would go against the Neutral Point of View principle and would be questionable anyway. Deceptive or not, these greedy scumbags are illegally profiteering from other people's intellectual property. (Huey45 (talk) 01:18, 15 May 2010 (UTC))

More sections needed
This article needs more balance to provide NPOV. The western based companies leave the west and go to china. They give all their secretes to someone to manufacture their goods for 45 cents for a 16 hour day ( called exploitation ). Lay of the western work force that was better paid. The chinese then see a great optertunity to eliminate the middle man ( the western companies ) and sell the products directly to the west ( this is called efficiency in capatalism ). Those same companies than expect the tax payer to defend them and us the consumer to listen to their crying. These corporations have gotten what they deserve.

Often the couterfeit goods are as good as the brand name ones. They are both real and are often both made in the same factory by the same workers.-- Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 04:35, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, and your big issue is completely POV - you don't put tags on articles because they doesn't construct reality the way you think it exists, but because they clearly show a perspective that diverts from widely accepted reality or presents the topic in a way that shows an obvious bias. If you feel that the "real deal" with counterfeit products is a big capitalism issue - then try to re-write the article.  But a POV tag doesn't belong because of this kind of stuff. -- David  Shankbone  22:57, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Counterfeiting U.S. Treasury Bonds
So, what does this group think of the two (apparently) Japanese nationals in their 50s who were detained in Italy and found to have in their possession approximately $135 Billion in counterfeit U.S. Treasury Bonds? They could be "cashed in" for real currency, or used to set up a line of credit. Take care. ProfessorPaul (talk) 04:52, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Introductory paragraph
I've rewritten the introductory paragraph. The old definition, "A counterfeit product is an imitation which infringes upon a production monopoly held by either a state or corporation.", excludes legal counterfeits, such as forgeries of public domain paintings, or knockoff brands that are different enough not to be illegal, or a gold plated cubic zirconia ring being passed off as a solid gold diamond ring. -- Gordon Ecker (talk) 23:44, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Does not make sense
This sentence doesn't make sense, as it seems to imply that counterfeiting bonds is perfectly legal: "By comparison, counterfeit government bonds are public debt instruments that are produced with legal sanction" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.100.202.6 (talk) 16:05, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Counterfeit Illegal Drugs
Whomever wrote in a long paragraph into the introduction about passing off oregano for marijuana or baking soda for cocaine must have gotten burned on this type of transaction a few times. In my experience, it's far more common for dealers to dilute their wares rather than sell fake products. Users familiar with marijuana would never mistake its' smell for the smell of oregano, and cocaine also has a distinct odor. I've edited the introduction to reflect this- counterfeit illegal drugs are much more uncommon than adulterated ones. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.203.22.82 (talk) 01:12, 14 January 2013 (UTC)