Talk:Countertenor/Archive 2

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The article contradicted itself saying that the countertenor's vocal centre is closest to that of a mezzo-soprano, then saying they mostly sang the alto parts because they can't reach the notes. In my experience, most countertenors are most comfortable singing alto parts, and few are able to sing mezzo parts for any length. Anyway, the page cited at this point refers both to countertenors being able to sing alto and mezzo parts so why not include both here.

I also added a paragraph about the haute-contre voice. The haute-contre has its own page but because of its frequent confusion with the countertenor voice, confusion which has yet to be entirely disentangled, it deserves a mention here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nicholas McMurry (talk • contribs) 17:16, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Countertenor technique
These two paragraphs contain unverifiable information. "Flagellio" is undefined - and outside this article, practically non-existant - thus confusing the concept. "Vocal center" is undefined. Singing counter-tenor myself, the technique and development issues are not accurate fo me, but may be accurate for others. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.236.163.115 (talk) 23:32, 20 February 2007 (UTC).
 * Flagellio is the technique for women to employ chest voice. Sopranos can go down to C#3, but I do not know the range of mezzo and contralto flagellio. (I believe that this term sometimes alternates with "flagiolette", though I'm not sure about the spelling). Vocal center is basically the tessiture, but although the sub-ranges above and below it. I was not aware this had to be defined in the article in order to be mentioned, or am I mistaken? Take notice that different sort of countertenors employ vastly different techniques, especially those who are tenor chest-voice and those who are baritone chest-voice, not to mention natural head-voice countertenors and sopranists. It's not fair or accurate to describe only the technique for falsettists, as was this article's situation before I did some editing. John Holly 05:08, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

"upper range far surpasses that of a soprano"
As far as I can tell this is false. Even among freakishly high whistle-register singers, women far outstrip the rare man who sings above C6. Unless there's a reasonable source cited, I think this should stay deleted. Ari Nieh 20:26, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I concur. As a musician and prospective recording artist, I have to be aware of my own limits, as does any musician.  My own range runs from A2 to E5, and very rarely can I hit G5--beyond this point the lyric soprani have a decisive advantage, in some cases all the way to E6. - B.C.Schmerker 09:14, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

vocal ranges
I removed the following paragraph:


 * As such, the vocal ranges of Countertenors greatly varies, because of the switch from head to chest voice. It would be safe to assume that the comfortable ranges would be C4-D5 for falsetto, and C3-D4 for chest voice. In the rarest of cases, the falsetto may reach from C4 to F6, and a chest voice of C2-C4.

for a few reasons. First, the bottom end of head voice occurs at different places in different voices. Pinning it to C4 is simply inaccurate. Second, the chest voice ranges cited seem completely arbitrary. Why is it assumed that a man who sings countertenor will have no chest voice above C4? Furthermore, how is the bottom end of chest voice relevant to a countertenor singer's range?

I think that range questions are addressed satisfactorily earlier in the article. It already mention sthat countertenors sing in an alto (or, more rarely, soprano) range, the approximate area of the switch into head voice, and the existence underlying tenor/baritone/bass voices. Ari Nieh 20:26, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

From my own experience, there is often an overlap between chest voice, which I use for singing lead, and head voice, which I use on some higher backing parts due to its "softer" timbre--in my case, the overlap runs from A3 to about C5, allowing me to substitute for an alto when necessary. - B.C.Schmerker 09:28, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Apology
Most of this false information that has been thankfully deleted seems to have come from me, which is not the case. Regretfully it seems several of my online accounts, including this one, have been accessed without my knowledge, and I can only hope that this has been some form of enourmous joke that has gone wrong. Paul-Ethan 18:53, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Ryan Molloy
For the record, Ryan Molloy is a tenor singer, not a countertenor. Many have seen him hit extremely high notes in Jerry Springer The Opera, however, this is through the use of advanced falsetto and he does not normally sing in this range.

Geddy Lee and Jeff Buckley
Do Geddy Lee and Jeff Buckley qualify? --Stephen Malkmus


 * There's been a lot said in the archived part of this talk page about whether or not to include non-classical singers. If there's any consensus, it appears to be against. EldKatt (Talk) 11:51, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Geddy Lee and Rik Emmet could very well qualify for the countertenor category; their singing remains bright up to about E5. Jordan Knight does not; falsetti often "dull down" in the top octave, as was the case on the New Kids on the Block ballad "I'll Be Loving You Forever." I haven't the information for Jeff Buckley. - B.C.Schmerker 09:43, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

List of Countertenors
I have inserted half a dozen. They are

John Whitworth	http://www.lboro.ac.uk/service/publicity/degree_days/degree_1998/whitworth.html

David Gould	http://www.summertownchoral.org.uk/1/ConcertJune2004.htm

Robin Blaze	http://www.countertenor.demon.co.uk/ct/ctlisting.html

Charles Brett	http://www.countertenor.demon.co.uk/ct/ctlisting.html

Christopher Royall	http://www.medieval.org/emfaq/performers/countertenors.html

William Towers	http://www.alliedartists.co.uk/Biographies/97.shtml

and have been proposed by one of their fellow countertenors, Grayston Burgess, for whom I hope to write an Entry of his own.

MusicJohn, 6/Sep/06

List of countertenors should be removed
I feel that the list of countertenors serves no useful purpose, detracts from the article, and should be removed. It does not get maintained properly; nonclassical countertenors are routinely entered despite the previous consensus against this (see Archive); unknown people are put in for whatever reason. Its only function right now is to make the article look silly. If anyone thinks such a list is a good thing they should be prepared to maintain it, preferably after it has been moved to a separate article. All this article needs is a couple of examples of famous ones - but lists like this are almost always a bad idea, as it certainly is here. I say it should go, please, and quickly. 138.37.199.206 08:31, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh well, I have boldly been bold and gorn and done it. I hope people approve. BaffledYetOddlyConfused 08:47, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
 * The only snag is that the article now mentions few countertenors at all. This was formerly OK because the short and useful list that once used to be here did mention a few. Can someone more knowledgeable mention a few in the body text please? Without reintroducing the concept of a "my friend Jeremy"-type list? Please please? :) BaffledYetOddlyConfused 08:55, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Why on Earth remove a list that you can simply edit and make better? I find lists like these quite valuable when researching a topic I'm unfamiliar with. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.175.23.87 (talk • contribs).

Generalizing the Voice
I have deleted the following phrases.

For these singers, the falsetto range is not on the edge of their cords, giving them a higher range, stronger and more musical than that of a regular male singer.

Singing technique and studies are the same for all kinds of countertenors.

The first is inaccurate while it addresses falsettists and implies the irregularity of the countertenor voice. This voice type is one of the oldest known to man and should not be treated thusly.

The latter was deleted because of its blatant generalization of the countertenor voice. With this sentence it is assumed that the sopranist and the counter tenor approach technique in a similar fashion. This obtuse statement is suspect. Would one say that all sopranos approach the voice with the same technique?

Also better terms than Flagellio should be used. If it is a term that is so archaic that it seems erroneous then it should be changed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by CountTR (talk • contribs).

contratenor
i've also heard the term "contratenor" used. would that be acceptable as well, or not? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 12.175.230.56 (talk • contribs).

Still "Disputed"?
Is the tag still appropriate? --ukexpat 19:34, 27 June 2007 (UTC)