Talk:Counties of the United Kingdom/Archive 1

IONA
This term, the "Islands of the North Atlantic", is only ever used with reference to the Northern Ireland peace agreements. It has no place in an article about ancient counties. TharkunColl 00:09, 7 March 2006 (UTC)


 * In Nordic contexts, "North Atlantic islands" is a phrase used to refer to the Faroes, Greenland and Iceland. //Big Adamsky 00:20, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Which I think renders it even more ambiguous and inappropriate in this article. TharkunColl 00:23, 7 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, perhaps. See this discussion. //Big Adamsky 00:27, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Usage
Would it be possible to link to an example of each of these usages? Or is this WP:V overkill for a simple dab page? I'm just trying to think of a solution for the "POV" war... Aquilina 21:18, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't know, but this article is dramatically better than it was a few weeks back. Just zis Guy you know? 15:25, 5 April 2006 (UTC)


 * This is no longer a dab page, therefore illustrations and examples of usage would be very welcome. As it is, it is 1000% better than it was before Aquilina totally re-wrote it.--Mais oui! 17:03, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Definite article
If the edit war over the use of the word "the" at the beginning of the article carries on much longer, the article will become a surefire candidate for Lamest edit wars ever. (In case anyone cares, I think that the "the" shouldn't be there, as it suggests there are a unique set of traditional counties, and as anyone who has read the various versions of this article will know, this is far from clear.) --RFBailey 21:59, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Scotland
So far as I know there are no "traditional counties" in Scotland. I believe the term "traditional county" dates from the late 19th century, and a decision of the UK Parliament (then also, effectively, parliament of the British Isles) to preserve then existing county boundaries in England and Wales as "traditional", in the face of legislation designed to create county councils and, at the same time, to change boundaries for general administrative purposes. No similar decision was made with respect to Scotland (where separate legislation applied re creation of county councils). "Traditional counties of England and Wales" may make sense as an article title. I suggest "Traditional counties of the British Isles" does not. Laurel Bush 15:11, 29 August 2006 (UTC).


 * The scope of this article includes Ireland (the Irish Republic and Northern Ireland) though. Also, the Association of British Counties appear to hold the opinion that Scotland has traditional counties.  I have no idea of the merit of that opinion, however.  Yorkshire Phoenix [[Image:Flag of the United Kingdom.svg|United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland|22px]] [[Image:Flag of Yorkshire (Flag Institute).svg|God's own county|22px]] 15:18, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Cheers. Thanks for the ref to the Association of British Counties. Also, I was aware of the article's intended scope as inclusive of the island of Ireland. Still seems to me that the article represents, essentially, a late 19th notion about subdivisions of the British Isles (perhaps current in editions of Encyclopaedia Britannia until circa 1920 or later), with a lot of projection, onto Scotland and Ireland, of 'fact' which is not really applicable outside England and Wales. Laurel Bush 16:51, 29 August 2006 (UTC).


 * The traditional counties are more commonly used in Ireland than they ever are in England and Wales. One notable difference with the approach in Northern Ireland is that settlements are able to be part of a borough in another county, without changing counties themselves (for example Portstewart and Portrush, both in County Antrim, are part of the Borough of Coleraine, which itself is in County Londonderry).  Out of interest: which version of the Scottish counties do the ABC call traditional counties?  Yorkshire Phoenix [[Image:Flag of the United Kingdom.svg|United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland|22px]] [[Image:Flag of Yorkshire (Flag Institute).svg|God's own county|22px]] 08:09, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
 * The reason they are more used is because they are more publicised! The Royal Mail didn't mess abuot with postal counties when local government changed, and neither did the Lords Lieutenants change either. If we could get them to change back in Great Britain too then we'd see more usage! Owain (talk) 08:30, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Seems I must repeat myself and elaborate. I believe that for England and Wales there was, late 19th century, an official, government/parliament decision to define and recognise "traditional counties" (perhaps now "preserved counties") with boundaries other than those of then new administrative counties. So far as I know this did not happen for Scotland and Ireland. I get the impression re Ireland, however, that there has been much less in the way of change to boundaries for administrative counties - administrative counties have, generally, very old boundaries, in contrast with boudaries of administrative counties in Britain. (And there are now no administrative counties in Scotland - just "council areas"). Laurel Bush 09:22, 30 August 2006 (UTC).

Looks to me like the article presents as commonly accepted fact what amounts to no more than beliefs of a very minor pressure group, and it should be a redirect to "Association of British Counties". Laurel Bush 09:37, 30 August 2006 (UTC).


 * Such a move would necessitate a re-write of that article to include the lost content from this one. That would result in a significant change in Association of British Counties from being an article about ABC to become one about the world according to ABC, which I don't think would be a good one.  Yorkshire Phoenix [[Image:Flag of the United Kingdom.svg|United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland|22px]] [[Image:Flag of Yorkshire (Flag Institute).svg|God's own county|22px]] 09:44, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I think the point here is not a legal one, but a geographical one; as the article itself says "The traditional counties of the British Isles are unofficial, informal and non-administrative divisions of the British Isles.". People in Scotland and Ireland can identify with counties that are no longer used in an adminstrative way, e.g. County Dublin, Lanarkshire, &c. These cultural identities exist independently of the ABC. Owain (talk) 09:47, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

The term "traditional county" does seems to have some legal meaning in England and Wales, but not elsewhere in Britain, or in Ireland. I note County Watch defines itself as a UK organisation, be seems concerned only with respect for tradional county boundaries in England and Wales. In Scotland and Ireland "traditional county" can mean whatever you want it to mean, depending on your beliefs about what is and is not "traditional", and a Wikipedia article representing one belief model as if definitive just does not make sense. Laurel Bush 10:31, 30 August 2006 (UTC).
 * The articles do not purport to do that. In cases where there are differences they are already explained - as in Ross-shire, Cromartyshire and Ross and Cromarty. Owain (talk) 10:45, 30 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I thought the only disagreement in Ireland was over the name of County Londonderry and essentially everyone recognises the same 32 counties (although, strictly speaking, there was never a County "Derry" or "Doire" but a County Coleraine before the creation of County Londonderry around the new walled city). Yorkshire Phoenix [[Image:Flag of the United Kingdom.svg|United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland|22px]] [[Image:Flag of Yorkshire (Flag Institute).svg|God's own county|22px]] 10:46, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

OK. I'll accept that. For now. Laurel Bush 10:58, 30 August 2006 (UTC).

As regards boundaries and histories of boundaries of Scottish counties, it seems easy enough to cite website sources re particular counties, eg here. And here Shennan, H., Boundaries of Counties and Parishes in Scotland (Edinburgh: Wm. Green & Sons, 1892) is cited. I havent seen the document myself, and therefore do not cite it myself. Laurel Bush 10:45, 23 September 2006 (UTC).

The "traditional counties of Scotland" that seem to be advocated by the ABC, County Watch-type organisations seem to be purely legal and not at all geographical. I thought these "traditional counties of Scotland" were based on Sherrifdoms. The above referenced "County of Lanark" (or "Lanarkshire" as it is called above) was based around the burgh of Lanark and it's sheriff court. Lanark was previously part of Clydesdale, which was roughly a geographical area (the Clyde valley). If one were to search for "Clydesdale" here, one would find that this geographical area and former district is in the council area of "South Lanarkshire" (based in Hamilton) not a traditional county created in the 1800s that no longer exists, called "Lanarkshire". The same is true of the the geographical districts of Cunninghame, Kyle and Carrick - roughly geographical districts based around the rivers Irvine, Kyle and Doon respectively - that where under the sheriffdom of the burgh of Ayr creating the "Shire of Ayr". Scotland had Sheriffdoms, or shires as they are also known, which had existed from the late 1700s but these were legal, not geographical or cultural divisions and the main unit of administration remained the burghs and the parishes. Benson85 00:28, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Traditional?
The Traditional counties of England was renamed Historic counties of England, following this disscussion. Shouldn't this article follow-suit, based upon the same conjectures and consensus? Jhamez84 17:58, 30 September 2006 (UTC)


 * That would give legitimacy to the idea that there were "historic" counties of Scotland on a similar basis to England. This is a disputed concept. I feel this page and Association of British Counties should merge instead. The only reference to "Traditional counties of the British Isles" is on Wikipedia and the ABC website. MRSC 19:02, 30 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Despite my reservations for this page moving, I would note that Traditional counties of Wales is a candidate for being renamed following the English example. MRSC 22:24, 30 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Agree that it shouldn't be moved because the case in Scotland is certainly different. However, it also should not be merged with the ABC article - as has been explained many times on these pages, the group is not the same as the 'objective', and there are groups outside the ABC relevant to the discussion.  Traditional county, as a phhrase, does have some limited currency elsewhere, as an occasional informal turn of phrase - check Hansard, the Times archive, etc. Perhaps movement to a historical subdivisions of the UK which explains the subtleties is the way forward. Aquilina 19:17, 30 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Hmm. I'd expect historical subdivisions of the British Isles to explain hundreds and cantrefs and villes and poor law unions, as well as counties.  Does "ancient county" work for Scotland and Ireland?  Morwen - Talk 15:10, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

I am thinking that if you go too far back re counties in Scotland, and you are likely to trigger disputes about whether the term "county" should be used at all. Laurel Bush 13:07, 3 October 2006 (UTC).


 * This page is entirely repetition of information found in other articles. It should redirect to Counties of the United Kingdom, that page then links to the various nations county articles. MRSC 19:34, 11 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Don't forget southern Ireland. Morwen - Talk 20:58, 11 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Good point. The link from Counties of the United Kingdom is to Counties of Ireland so it catches it too. MRSC 05:57, 12 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Given that this links to Counties of Ireland, should it be renamed to Counties of the British Isles/Counties of Great Britain and Ireland? Yorkshire Phoenix [[Image:Flag of the United Kingdom.svg|United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland|22px]] [[Image:Flag of Yorkshire (Flag Institute).svg|God's own county|22px]] 00:37, 21 October 2006 (UTC)


 * No other concerns voiced, I've merged the information in. MRSC 20:27, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Map of Scottish counties
I believe there were various changes to boundaries during the 1890 to 1975 period. Changes did not stop with the work of the Boundary Commissioners appointed under the legislation of 1889. The same legislation gave greater powers re boundaries to the Secretary for Scotland. Perhaps the map is actually of counties as abolished in 1975? Laurel Bush 10:37, 19 October 2006 (UTC).


 * I've adapted the caption. User:Morwen created the map and will probably be able to confirm which boundaries are being used. MRSC 11:17, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Cheers. Laurel Bush 11:43, 19 October 2006 (UTC).