Talk:Counting of the Omer

Not really a holiday
The counting of the omer is not really a holiday except for the beginning (Passover), the end (Shavuot) and the 33rd day (Lag Baomer). It is more like a Jewish tradition/commandment. So why is it listed under holidays? Smartyshoe 13:56, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Good point. If you look at the article on Jewish holidays, you'll see that the fast days and even Tisha B'Av, the saddest day of the year, are also classified as "holidays." Perhaps that term makes them more understandable to non-religious and non-Jewish readers, since why else would you celebrate or commemorate anything? Yoninah 14:20, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

The reason it is a Holiday is that it is the 2nd of the three Mosaic holiday periods. Technically, there are only seven God ordained holidays: Passover, Unleavened Bread, Reishit, Shavuot/Pentecost, Yom Teruah, Yom Kippur, and Sukkot. From reading the Torah: Passover is the beginning of Unleavened Bread; Reishit is the beginning sacrifice of "Counting the Omer" finished by Shavuot, more properly named the period of the Harvest of the First Fruit (or grain harvest) or just "First Fruits", with the three remaining festivals in the Autumn. See below how "Counting" is not Mosaically attached to Passover. Think about it: although harvesting grain by hand is a lot of work, if you are out of grain (bread) from the winter, which also gets funky with age and storage, once you celebrate the feast of Reishit, you can now eat fresh bread everyday, and who doesn't love yummy fresh bread. That's a holiday for me. Shavuot, which means "Weeks" is a better term in my view for "Counting the Omer" as they both refer to the period of time between the two sacrifices.Guy3fire (talk) 03:28, 9 June 2019 (UTC)

Sefira counter
The sefira counter for this page is a couple days out of date, how do we fix that?
 * I updated it -- the way to fix it is by editing this page: Template:Omer_counter -- Amazins490 03:21, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Counting of the Omer - Sola Scriptura or Tradition as dictated by a hierarchy?
Are the definitions provided by and within the written Torah to be accepted for what they are or is everyone but a self-select few to succumb to a more or less random set of definitions or doctrines dictated by tradition as interpreted by those same self-select few?

A good example illustrating the above question is my very brief entry on "19 April 2008" under Counting of the Omer / Source providing first a fundamental Torah definition of a key word, i.e. "ממחרת" and secondly a reference to how the Torah instructions were being applied 2000 years ago as recorded in Greek manuscripts originally most likely written in Hebrew by the Jewish scholar and Pharisee Paul aka. Saul. In order to make available to the interested reader some more relevant context and a discussion re this same subject matter a link to an outside prepublished article was also supplied:"


 * "Cf. also the first occurrence of "ממחרת" in the Torah (Genesis 19:24) and the timing of this event as reflected by Acts 21:27 in the most original language available."

Unfortunately, the day following my original edit I found my contribution edited out by someone apparently believing him or herself having been given the rights and responsibilities of a censor. I believe my brief edit was and is very much an edit in harmony with the fundamental spirit and intent of Wikipedia's stated aims as published in the left hand column link entitled “About Wikipedia:”

"“Visitors do not need specialized qualifications to contribute, since their primary role is to write articles that cover existing knowledge; this means that people of all ages and cultural and social backgrounds can write Wikipedia articles. Most of the articles can be edited by anyone with access to the Internet, simply by clicking the edit this page link. Anyone is welcome to add information, cross-references or citations, as long as they do so within Wikipedia's editing policies and to an appropriate standard...”"

Yes, said censor is providing his or her basis for removing my edit (Cf. history:)
 * "Source: removing uninformative reference to self-published source."

The external link provided in my edit is clearly not intended as the basis or authority for either of the Hebrew Scriptures (or Greek translation) being referenced or for the concept conveyed by those same passages.

Although my link to an outside article does provide additional thought to my brief entry it is in no way necessary to support it, and if the Wikipedia censors feels that said link is "uninformative" and not in harmony with Wikipedia's policy I can accept that said link of mine is edited out while leaving the rest of my edit intact as originally entered.

Except as above noted, unless my original edit and this entry of mine is rebutted while providing good cause I find the censoring of my original edit being contrary to the spirit and intent of Wikipedia's stated aims and my original edit must be allowed as originally entered.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - Tree of Life Time (TLT)  Talk 22:51, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

While this last post is apparently being ignored here it is in effect being followed up here.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - Tree of Life Time (TLT)  Talk 17:03, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Bias of Article
This article presents right-wing Orthodox views as encyclopedic truth, does not link the Omer to the sectarian debate on the amtter, and presents vorts as truth. I will post a notice within three days if nobody objects, and begin work on a new article.--128.139.226.37 (talk) 09:28, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Sephardim
There's a problem in the article. Sephardim is the Hebrew word for Spanish. Spanish and Portuguese Jews are Sephardim. Whatever the distinction that author was attempting to make in the article, it misses and sounds dumb and is misleading. Someone who knows what is trying to be shaid should correct that. Thanks for letting me participate. :D


 * I guess they meant Mizrahim not Sephardim but for Ashkenazim we are the same s**t — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.65.58.27 (talk) 10:02, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

POV
the entire article is largely unsourced, this is particularly problematic for the karaite section, which states things in a POV ("the rabbinic tradition cannot be correct" vs. the NPOV "____ claim(s) that the rabinnic tradition cannot be correct"), which makes sources all the more necessary, if i dont get a response in the next week im deleting the section g.j.g (talk) 19:56, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

the "alternate explanation"
Regarding this edit, made some months ago. This is entirely WP:OR. While it's interesting, I don't see a citation or even an indication that this is what is done by anyone. Is this what karaites do? (I ask only due to ignorance on my part). If so then it should be added back in the appropriate section with a citation. Pending that, this is presented as an original interpretation of a single wikipedian, so I'm removing it as OR. --Bachrach44 (talk) 14:51, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

BaOmer vs Ba'omer
In various sections of this article BaOmer and Ba'omer are used interchangeably. One or the other should be used consistently. --Plotke (talk) 09:48, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Good catch. BaOmer appears more often, and is also the spelling used for the article Lag BaOmer, so we'll go with that. StevenJ81 (talk) 20:12, 14 April 2016 (UTC)
 * ✅ StevenJ81 (talk) 20:15, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Sefira counter
Once again, the sefira counter is displaying incorrect numbers (and different ones on different devices, no less). I can't figure out how to actually edit the template that generates it in order to fix the problem. Oh, well... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.77.144.236 (talk) 14:25, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
 * You actually can't, because it's not a coding issue, it's a page cache issue. Caveat for any lurkers: Is there a way to make sure a page refreshes at least once a day no matter what? The way to update the counter (or the pages where the counter appears) is to refresh the cache on the page. The counter should now disappear since the season is over, but I'll add a refresh link on there for next year. StevenJ81 (talk) 14:46, 14 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Any time the counter actually appears on the page—which it does only during the actual interval of the count—you can update the count by clicking "refresh". The only time that doesn't work is at the very beginning of the count, since that refresh link won't have appeared yet. I try to come on the wiki after the second day of Passover to refresh the page and make the counter appear, but I can of course make no promises going forward. StevenJ81 (talk) 14:49, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
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Mosaic Commencement Time of Counting of the Omer
Mosaic Torah and rabbinical traditions differ substantially as to when the Counting of the Omer commences. Deuteronomy 16:9-12 clarifies Leviticus 23:9-21 that first day of harvesting ripe grain with the scythe determines the beginning of grain harvest celebration/sacrifice "Wave Offering" of the Omer/sheaf, which determines the beginning of the common slang expression "Counting of the Omer", which is really simply counting the 50 days from the "waving of the omer". Being entirely based on the ripening of the grain into a head seed that can be harvested, the mosaic date can not be determined in advance by any Priest or Rabbi. It is not in any way connected to Passover or the Feast of Unleavened Bread. The waving of the sheaf/omer of the stalks and heads of ripe grain is to occure at the Temple by a Priest on the Sunday immediately following (ie. "the day after the Sabbath") after the beginning of the grain harvest. Neither barley grain nor wheat grain is ripe or even exist until both the head and the stalk turn pale yellow. When both the head and stalk are green, the future grain is still liquid; and when the head is yellow, but the stalk is still green, the future grain is still not harvest-able, as it is like brie cheese in consistency, thus unseparatable by threshing or machine. Only after both the head and the stalk are yellow is there a grain that is hard enough to be harvested, thus the Mosaic grain harvest doesn't begin until the barley crop is ripe. Since both Israel and California have identical climates and season, grain harvest occurs at the same time, which is annually close to May 15th. Thus the "Counting of the Omer" according to Mosaic Law will always begin about May 15th annually; and thus the Mosaic Shavuot is always close to July 4th, because the Counting of the Omer time period is the weeks of the barley harvest combined with the weeks of the wheat harvest, ending with a feast, shortly after harvest has completed. This is somewhat controversial, not because the above verses are not clear enough, but because in 70 AD, Israel was ejected from the land and scattered, then commonly, not allowed to own land, as well as in a completely different climate than Tel Aviv with different grain harvest seasons. Thus, Rabbis in various places attached these grain harvest feast times to the previous feasts of Passover or Unleavened Bread. Now that Israel is back in the land, there is no need to ignore the Torah for the sake of the Rabbis in Counting the Omer, not that there ever was a reason to ignore the Torah, since counting the omer could technically start in different weeks by the different farmers, because of being in different growing regions from each other, eg. a field at a higher thus colder elevation would ripen later than a lower as well as a field with much less water would ripen earlier than one with more water. No Priest could make all the farmer's fields ripen simultainiously, hence, this was not a nationally simultainious set of feasts, but rather farm dependent. Remember, when you see a wave offering sheaf of grain that is all or partially green, it is not the start of the grain harvest, and it is not the Mosaic time to Count the Omer. See these videos on Barley (below). Barley harvest starts about two weeks prior to wheat harvest. Crimping is harvesting the grain, verses "whole-crop" which has no grain, but is fed to the livestock as grass. The dry stalk is not eatable for livestock and may only be used for straw. But until the stalk is dry straw, there is no grain to harvest. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdIsfB8LLHE       Wholecrop barley has an immature grain the consistancy of soft cheese, such as brie, which is still not ripe for harvesting for humans. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-F8Rg0dwq6A  "First Fruits" is likely the best terminology for the whole of the grain harvest, from Reishit to Shavuot, as it refers to the grain, which was harvested before the olives, grapes and other fruit. As Passover is Mosaically the beginning of the Feast of Unleavened Bread which lasts a week; and First Fruits lasts 50 days, in the early summer months; followed by the second half of the summer harvest; followed by the feasts of the Autumn; Mosaic Law technically has three feast periods annually with separation between them. It is like the Creator to put things in 3s, 7s, and such, so we see that there are seven God ordained feastivals, 2 + 2 + 3.Guy3fire (talk) 02:54, 9 June 2019 (UTC)

NPOV
This article is getting some heavy edits that I do actually agree with from a rhetorical perspective. This however is an encyclopaedia and thus verifiable facts should be included whether we find them pretty or not. The notion that it is also called Pentecost or the Feast of weeks isn't even controversial Jewish sources use those terms https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/shavuot-101/. I did change it to saying its a translation though because it is more accurate I also clarified the Christian Pentecost is distinct.

As for the appropriateness of Christians keeping any of the Jewish holidays I agree that it's inappropriate but the encyclopaedia isn't about reporting appropriate things to my personal POV it is about reporting what is in fact the case. I did restore the stuff about non Jews however I found sources that brought up the controversial nature in an attempt to better achieve a neutral article on the topic. Hopefully this is better and future edits can bring better NPOV balance to this article instead of just changing how it is off balance. 2600:6C55:64F0:87B0:4189:7675:1134:FB98 (talk) 10:30, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Pentecost and Feast of Weeks are appropriate terms for "Shavuot", but they are not terms for the Omer itself. Looking at the article right now, there is a section on Christianity which used the term Pentecost. I see no need for any changes to the article, I'm removing the NPOV notice.Ar2332 (talk) 08:09, 3 April 2023 (UTC)