Talk:Country music/Archive 1

Needs major work!
Although it is a fairly decent article, there is a good bit of misinformation and a whole lot of gigantic holes. I'd like to see some work done on the west coast country from the 30s through the 50s, which was probably the most influential, yet least talked about period, as to people's perception of what country music is today.

Gospel
There is a fair bit of Gospel in country music too. Lots of acts ranging from the Statlers to Alabama started as essentially Gospel acts, then crossed over into mainstream country music. I am not sure how to weave that into the text.

Also, "maudlin" strikes me as an unnecessarily derogative term. Sort of like calling punk rock "nihilistic". DMD

But I did say thats the perception. I don't think its true but I do think its the perception... GWO


 * A certain intended derogatory connatation seems OK to me, since the sentence is essentially a complaint about what's heard on the air vs the actual diversity that's out there. -- B.Bryant


 * Also w.r.t. what's on the air these days, the merger with 70s style Rock seems to be well advanced. I hear lots of Country music in Austin's restraunts, and I would guess that about one song out of every 4 or 5 has a very noticable backbeat, a classical distinguishing characteristic of Rock music. For many songs the only way to distinguish the genre (if you didn't know what station was on) is by means of some very specific vocal mannerisms, plus of course the common use of fiddle and steel guitar. Though there have been some recent news stories about this in the national media (e.g., Peter Jennings in the fall of 2002), I would guess that this trend has been growing since about 1980, probably with roots in the individual crossover acts of the 60s and 70s. Also there may be a "stealth crossover" element involved. When the movie Urban Cowboy came out and proved to be something of a hit, all the clubs in my home county immediately switched from playing Rock to playing Country, and a lot of the local bands immediately switched genres to suit, often without so much as a name change. -- B.Bryant


 * Finally, if someone wants to put together a description of Country Music traits, it might be worth mentioning the tendancy toward word-play. I don't listen to it much, but even my casual exposure is enough for me to notice this. E.g., a couple of days ago I heard a song with the refrain "You had me going, now I'm gone". This sort of thing seems to be much more common in Country than in the other musical genres I hear. -- B.Bryant

I've added a few people to the lists. In particular, Bill Monroe. He is, to me, one of the greats of Country Music. The article differentiates between country and bluegrass music. I would see bluegrass as a sub-set of country. Artists like Ricky Skaggs and Dolly Parton sing Bill Monroe's songs as part of their repertoire and Skagg's production of the CD "Big Mon" has singers from Dixie Chicks to John Fogerty showcasing Bill Monroe's country music.

Any thoughts on whether Creedence Clear Water Revival qualify as Country Rock? What about The Band, or even Bob Dylan? -- Tiles


 * They're mentioned in the article on southern rock. Trying to pigeonhole music and artists is just asking for trouble anyway.  Heck, you could make a case that a couple of songs on the White Album were country-influenced. --Robert Merkel

That's no doubt as good a place to locate them as any. I agree that pigeon-holing can lead to trouble but I can see merit in capturing artists within a wide category if they have made a significant contribution to a genre or have a substantial body of work in that category. Country music and rock intersect with the likes of Elvis, Jerry Lee Lewis, The Eagles, Gram Parsons and Steve Earle so maybe it is appropriate to include these artists in more than one category and cut out the agonising. Tiles

Alt vs Nashville?
The comment about the alt-country folks disliking Nashville is just wrong as a categorical statement. What about k.d. lang? She was clearly as punky as you could get and still be country, but in mid-career recorded an album of pure Patsy Cline covers in traditional torch style. That isn't an act of contempt. Remove that generalization please. Some consider Shania Twain to be an alt-country performer too.

Also what about blues-country characters like Blue Rodeo? And is it right to call it an "American" art form when some of these contributors are Canadian? There is also the uniquely weird Canadian country of Stompin' Tom Connors, which I won't even attempt to describe.

Country music is American music. Its roots are in the Southern States of the USA and Jimmie Rodgers is the "Father of Country Music". Canadians sing country, Australians sing country even Billy Connolly, a Scotsman, has been known to sing a country song. Tiles
 * I've heard Japan has a country scene too. Feel free to add info on any of this, but the Nashville statement is correct, though perhaps it needs clarification.  I didn't write it, but I think the author's intended meaning was the new Nashville sound, like Garth Brooks, Shania Twain and such -- Patsy Cline was part of the old Nashville sound; there is a clear distinction as they are separated by about fifteen years and a few major developments (Hank Williams Jr., Merle Haggard, Dwight Yoakam).  Lang has been as critical as any of the new Nashville sound.  I'd need to see a reference for Shania Twain being alt country; if she's ever mentioned in anything on the subject I've seen or heard, it's to specifically deride her and anyone who sounds like her.  That's certainly not the primary meaning of "alt country". Tokerboy


 * New article: The Excessive appearance of Shania Twain on Country music television)... 'Vert


 * Any appearance of Shania Twain on CMT is abhorrent to all that is good and true in the world. That doesn't mean I've never watched her videos muted, when I hadn't had a date in a while, but that is why God invented Cinemax, not CMT... - Tuf-Kat


 * Good Lord. :[> -'Vert P.s. A sign of the times: Watching music videos muted.

Johnny Rebel
Johnny Rebel wa not part of the musical movement - Golden age of country. If he deserves to be on this list it should be under some genre such as rascist or novelty? Rmhermen 17:16 Apr 29, 2003 (UTC)

Strands
Hey, I've been watching this page and my main suggestion is to explain what the actual differences are between the two "strands" of country music. It says that artists can be divided into the two categories, but on what basis? Is one more hard-edged, more honky-tonk, more ballad-oriented, more harmonic, more pop? Other than that, great work on a subject I thought might never get filled in more completely! Tuf-Kat 05:03, Aug 27, 2003 (UTC)

Pop?
Today country music seems to have turned into a money-making and star-idolization thing.

I heard that a lot of the current-day country music stars use stolen music.

Apparently they are given it (the so-to-speak "loot"), and to develop the star's personna in the eyes of the public, they are encouraged to pretend like they wrote it, which they often do. Stolen music is thus parceled out to pretend song-writers. (I strongly suspect it is all a big money-making scam.)


 * This is scarcely new, and neither is the practice of buying music and passing it off as one's own. Or paying peanuts for arrangements and passing them off as one's own.


 * To change the subject, isn't the article a bit harsh about A. P. Carter's talent. "Newsboy Jimmy Brown" and "My CLinch Mountain Home" have always impressed me. Trontonian 03:25, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)


 * There was an article in yesterday's New York Times about the Carters and their great influence. Said that A.P. basically stole songs from the homes he was invited to -- wrote down the songs that ppl sang him, thanked them, went home, rewrote them, and took the credit.  Hayford Peirce 04:58, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Stonewall Jackson

 * I moved Stonewall Jackson to the Golden Age list -- his first hit was in 1959 and he is in no way an innovator that I know of. I put Eddie Arnold on the Golden Age also but he could, just as easily, I think, be in the Innovators -- his first hit was in 1945 and he was a major singer in the 40s as well as having a major revival in the 60s.  Hayford Peirce 04:58, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Criticisms
I removed the following which was left over after a deletion by 24.151.110.132 on 2 January 2005.


 * '"President George H. W. Bush declared October, 1990 "Country Music Month", the proclamation reading: "Encompassing a wide range of musical genres, from folk songs and religious hymns to rhythm and blues, country music reflects our Nation's cultural diversity as well as the aspirations and ideals that unite us. It springs from the heart of America and speaks eloquently of our history, our faith in God, our devotion to family, and our appreciation for the value of freedom and hard work. With its simple melodies and timeless, universal themes, country music appeals to listeners of all ages and from all walks of life."''

The text deleted on 2 January was:


 * In reaction to Bush's 1990 proclamation professional country guitarist and Associate Professor of Music at Columbia Aaron Fox (2004, p.48) comments that, "Whiteness, racism, poverty, and alienated labor are, it seems quite as irrelevant as country music's obvious failure to appeal to listeners from at least some'' walks of life." He quotes (p.46) the Schiller Institute which describes country music as, "the 'musical culture' of the pessimistic American populist, wallowing in nostalgia for the Good Old Days and the glorious Lost Cause of Confederacy...Where did Country and Western come from? You guessed it, again: not from the hills and hollers of rural America, but from testtubes [sic] of such cultural warfare centers as Theodore Adorno's [sic] Princeton Radio Research Project."
 * Country music is often called "white trash" and Fox notes that "country music is widely disparaged in racialized terms, and assertions of its essential 'badness' are frequently framed in specifically racial terms...For many cosmopolitan Americans, especially, country is 'bad' music precisely because it is widely understood to signify an explicit claim to whiteness, not as an unmarked, neutral condition of lacking (or trying to shed) race, but as a marked, foregrounded claim of cultural identity - a bad whiteness...unredeemed by ethnicity, folkloric authenticity, progressive politics, or the noblesse oblige of elite musical culture."
 * The last comment seems to describe a racist pride, and "Those who suspect country music is racist, for example, might find their opinion strengthened by the underground race-baiting, hate-filled music of country singer/songwriter 'Johnny Rebel' (Clifford 'Pee Wee' Trahan) whose records have circulated widely since his commercial heyday in the 1960s. Among his most popular songs: 'Nigger Hatin' Me.'" (ibid) 
 * There are those who believe that you can probably find some so called country writer or singer to illustrate any negative aspect of humanity. But, for every insignificant Johnny Rebel, there is a major influencer such as Johnny Cash, who stood up for the rights of the poor, the disadvantaged and the downtrodden. Writers like
 *  Nicholas Dawidoff, Colin Escott, Peter Dogget, Kurt Wolff and Richie Unterberger have celebrated the positive aspects of the genre and should be read to obtain a balanced approach to the wider aspects of country music 

I support the initial deletion as the article should be about the music and the artists, not academic pronouncements especially when they use Johnny Rebel as a source. For the sake of balance I have removed the positive political statement. Tiles 05:33, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)


 * [Tiles and anonymous] (added, 04:47, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)) your position is not neutral (NPOV). Just because you disagree with something, or with a whole set of institutions (academia), does not mean that those opinions do not belong in wikipedia. Please read Neutral point of view and adjust your edits accordingly. Hyacinth 02:30, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)


 * I should also point out that Aaron Fox is a profesional country guitarist and country fan, and thus his opinion is not only as an "academic" but as a listener, participant, and professional, but more importantly he does not claim to hold the position that country music is racist. He provides what is required of Wikipedia articles by NPOV, Cite sources, and No original research: neutrally describing that a signifigant minority of people share the point of view, however mistaken, that country music is racist using a citation. If you disagree with this please provide sources to the contrary, as I have done. Hyacinth 04:47, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Criticism and Response to Criticism
Professor Fox's comments on the criticism and response is a personal statement and should be in this section rather than the article. In fact, the arguments are better located here. I have, once again, removed them from the article and added Prof Fox's comments, which vindicate the original removal. See below:

Criticisms
In reaction to Bush's 1990 proclamation professional country guitarist and Associate Professor of Music at Columbia Aaron Fox (2004, p.48) comments that, "Whiteness, racism, poverty, and alienated labor are, it seems quite as irrelevant as country music's obvious failure to appeal to listeners from at least some walks of life." He quotes (p.46) the Schiller Institute which describes country music as, "the 'musical culture' of the pessimistic American populist, wallowing in nostalgia for the Good Old Days and the glorious Lost Cause of Confederacy...Where did Country and Western come from? You guessed it, again: not from the hills and hollers of rural America, but from testtubes [sic] of such cultural warfare centers as Theodore Adorno's [sic] Princeton Radio Research Project."

Country music is often called "white trash" and Fox notes that "country music is widely disparaged in racialized terms, and assertions of its essential 'badness' are frequently framed in specifically racial terms...For many cosmopolitan Americans, especially, country is 'bad' music precisely because it is widely understood to signify an explicit claim to whiteness, not as an unmarked, neutral condition of lacking (or trying to shed) race, but as a marked, foregrounded claim of cultural identity - a bad whiteness...unredeemed by ethnicity, folkloric authenticity, progressive politics, or the noblesse oblige of elite musical culture."

The last comment seems to describe a racist pride, and "Those who suspect country music is racist, for example, might find their opinion strengthened by the underground race-baiting, hate-filled music of country singer/songwriter 'Johnny Rebel' (Clifford 'Pee Wee' Trahan) whose records have circulated widely, since his commerical heyday in the 1960s. Among his most popular songs: 'Nigger Hatin' Me.'" (ibid)

Response to criticisms
There are those who believe that you can probably find some so called country writer or singer to illustrate any negative aspect of humanity. But, for every insignificant Johnny Rebel, there is a major influencer such as Johnny Cash, who stood up for the rights of the poor, the disadvantaged and the downtrodden. Writers like - Nicholas Dawidoff, Bruce Feiler, Colin Escott, Peter Dogget, Kurt Wolff and Richie Unterberger have celebrated the positive aspects of the genre and should be read to obtain a balanced approach to the wider aspects of country music. Bruce Feiler, in particular, explores the issue of racism in Dreaming out Loud (p242) where he states "Of all the misapprehensions at loose in the world about country music, perhaps the most persistent is that it's the music of racist, redneck Republicans."

Comment by User:160.39.213.124
The original writer who paraphrased my article "White Trash Alchemies of the Abject Sublime" has created an incorrect impression of that article's arguments, leading to the follow-up "response to criticism" taking offense where none was given. As I point out in the article, overt racists like Johnny Rebel are not at all typical or exemplary of the genre. In fact, I argue that country confronts the lived realities of race in (working-class) America with more seriousness than it ever gets credit for (see my discussions of Stoney Edwards' "Blackbird" and David Allen Coe's "If That Ain't Country"). Also, I did not cite the Schindler Institute position as anything other than an extreme and hilarious example of anti-country sentiment. If you're going to cite academic work on wikipedia, please try to be fair to the original author's actual arguments, and don't just pick and choose quotes out of context to make your own case. Thank you.

Sincerely,

Aaron A. Fox Columbia University


 * Thank you, Aaron. Tiles 10:26, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * While I do agree that this whole situation is accurately described as "offense where none was given", I would hope that someone with Fox's credentials and skills would notice the appropriate venue for making comments on articles, or at least notice the encyclopedic tone of the article (and possibly contribute to it). I would also think, from Fox doing so in his own article, that he would support, as do Wikipedia guidelines, the inclusion of these "extreme and hilarious" points of view (POV) in the article. Hyacinth 04:55, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Please see Wikipedia talk:Criticism. Thanks. Hyacinth 08:24, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I am only just seeing this discussion of my original comment, which I meant to put into the discussion of course. I am not a user of Wikipedia normally, and do not want to be a spoilsport, but I am amazed at the sloppiness of all of this. First, I am quoted out of context as saying something exactly opposite, which then generates not only discussion but actual edits to the article building on this initial sloppiness. For crying out loud, how complicated is it to understand that I am saying "some people think of country as racist music," and examples can be cited to selectively support this biased view?" To deny that country has a history of racism is partisan and biased. Does anyone here know why DeFord Bailey was denied a pension when he was fired from the Opry, or what Lefty Frizzell said to Stoney Edwards the only time they met, after Lefty heard Stoney's "Hank and Lefty Raised My Country Soul?"  Heck, anyone here ever interview Stoney Edwards?  I have.  This does not make the music trash, it's not different from a lot of other areas of American music or culture, and it's not news.  But it is important to understanding what country music means today and how it got to mean that.

I appreciate the introduction to add to the entry, but I write about country for a living, and after seeing the way things seem to work here, why would I open myself up to even more of this misrepresentation?

Aaron Fox Columbia University


 * I presume that you can see the ease with which someone could anonymously post messages on Wikipedia claiming to be the Queen of England and requesting the removal of information from the article about her. Hyacinth 08:39, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

NOTE: This discussion may still be ongoing at Talk:Country music.

References and further reading
Can we pick one citation style for this article and stick with it? See: Cite_sources. Hyacinth 22:13, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * What is the current style? Hyacinth 07:37, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * The Country Musoic citation styleTiles 10:26, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * Problem solved. See below. Hyacinth 05:07, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Modern Superstars
It seems to me this article should mention, at least in passing, Garth Brooks and especially (with 50 #1 hits) George Strait. Anyone have any ideas how to do this without turning it into a popularity contest for modern artists? --Steven Fisher 04:37, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Wow. Killer list, whoever did that. I know I'm happy! --Steven Fisher 09:54, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)

"Negro spirituals"
courtesy of the driveby Wikipedian known as User:Project2501a. Why doesn't he stay awhile and tell us how he really feels? Libel is no joke. ScapegoatVandal 17:41, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Ooh. Libel. Good choise of words. Hearty and yummy, just the thing to inspire everybody into constructive critisism and writing and help simmer the tention down. It's your argument man, you started it, you finish it. I just posted the warning :D Don't mind me, I'm just with the janitors. ^_^ Project2501a 19:50, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Luther Vandross and Co; are not Country. Please leave the tangential "Negro spirituals" out of Country and Western as they have always been. Just because a couple of Blacks like Country and some even perform it, doesn't mean they've altered the genre. Country and Western is from Anglo-Celtic rooted themes, layered with some Classical instrumentation and Christian lyricism. If you deny this truth, then you must have a prejudiced political agenda and that is a very taboo POV here at this website. I tell you what: I have been listening to Country every single day on my damn radio and nothing sounds like those TV commercials with the old Black musical artists before the Afro Puff came out. When I hear Country, it is the song and dance of poor Whites in America and Britain. When I hear a Country singer's accent, I think of no Black at all. Why distort this with Afrocentric/Liberal revisionist politics? You hurt my feelings; truely. Are there no genuine contributions of my people to America's foundations? Only "minorities" are appreciated with what they did not originate? Claim it all for yourselves, but the Mexicans will try to take it from you too. I don't want an edit war.


 * You are wrong. Read the articles on Hank Williams, Jimmie Rodgers and The Carter Family.  They were all influenced by African Americans.  The blues is a common theme in Country, (particularly Hank Williams and Jimmie Rodgers) and bluegrass has been characterised by the banjo playing of Earl Scruggs.  The instrument's history goes back to Africa.
 * I also do not want to enter into an edit war and would be happy to have a mediator assess the merits of the edits Tiles 08:15, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

So working class Whites or poor white Crackers that are the Redneck stereotype on Jerry Springer and seamen don't have their blues? What of Classical(from the Georgian period when they were kicked out of Britain) and Christian roots(what they are made fun of for) you deny? What of the European instruments used to compose ballads? What type of POV are you trying to push? Whites also cultivate watermelon in their backyards...does that make them "carrying influences" from Blacks? Do Whites even play the banjo like Blacks? Gunpowder was adopted from Asia, but does it have recognisable usage in similarity? What of Mediaeval minstrels and bards who plodded about in Country fashion? Are the Romantic rhapsodies like the rap artist Tupac Shakur? Just because the Whites and Blacks share poverty and emotional motivation in common, doesn't mean they took from eachother or blended. This is the truth of the South, which is well documented in the Separate-But-Equal laws that alienated each from the other. Surely, Whites have used Banjos and Blacks have used Saxophones...but also Voodoo Spirituality is a far cry from Christian Spirituality. Do you even notice the difference in both beat and dance, between Black and White artists? All peoples have similar roots in their respective backgrounds, but you muddle the differences as if there weren't any. What point would there be in sociology and/or multiculturalism, if we were all the same? Just because a White person can learn how to play an instrument by a Black person, doesn't mean that he got influences any more than a dog can fetch a ball. Same goes on the other end. Do you know how many Afrocentric crackpots there are, claiming all inventions and arts that Europeans developed were originally by Africans? It is part of the same diversionary tactic to focus on Africa as the Cradle of Humanity and deny the worth of peoples elsewhere. Race slavery between Blacks and Whites is over, which indicates that Blacks should ease up on the ridiculous character assassinations of Whites. Because Black men performed manual labour in construction of the US Capitol building, doesn't mean they influenced it's design! Do you listen to liberal elitists in the same fashion as Whig history? If at all, this is should be covered in the subgenre Country blues. Flamenco is Spanish, not Mexican!
 * Note: The above unsigned comment is by User:ScapegoatVandal. -- Infrogmation


 * Please Sign your posts on talk pages. Thanks. Hyacinth 21:58, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * From Reebee Garofalo's Rock' Out: Popular Music in the USA, specifically the section titled Blues and Country: More Equal Than Separate from a chapter titled Blues and Country Music: Mass Media and the Construction of Race: "At Okeh, black artists were assigned to the label's 14000 Race Series and white artists to its 15000 Hillbilly Series. As marketing categories, designations like race and hillbilly intentionally separated artists along racial lines and conveyed the impression that their music came from mutually exclusive sources.  Nothing could have been further from the truth.  Across the social divide of segregation, these artists were aware of and influenced by each other's work.  In cultural terms, blues and country were more equal than they were separate".  A few paragraphs later, Garofalo cites country music historian Bill C. Malone as explaining that Southern folk music was primarily British, but "overlain and intermingled with... Germans of the Great Valley of Virginia, the Indians of the backcountry; Spanish, French and mixed-breed elements in the Mississippi Valley; the Mexicans of South Texas; and, of course, blacks everywhere".  She then goes on to explain that "of the two most common instruments used in early country music--the fiddle and the banjo--the fiddle was from Europe and the banjo was most probably of African origin... From the 1920s on, country fiddlers borrowed heavily from blues and jazz.  Syncopated rhythms, improvisational styles, and call-and-response patterns were common in commercial country fiddling".  The following paragraph, on the guitar, says that it is a "staple of both blues and country music (and had been) a fixture in country blues accompaniment long before it became a dominant instrument in country music.  In fact, it found its way into country string bands through white musicians' fascination with the elaborate fingerpicking styles of black artists, which were characteristic of West African techniques but unknown in European folk music".  Garofalo concludes that section by claiming that by the time "blues and country music were recorded in the 1920s and 1930s, these sorts of cross-pollinations were so common that artists were sometimes listed in the wrong racial category in record company catalogues.  Nevertheless, because a separation of the races has been so prominent in U.S. social relations, the official histories of blues and country have treated these styles as separate and distinct and used designations like race and hillbilly to emphasize differences".
 * From Rolling Stones' Rock of Ages: History of Rock and Roll, "'Dock' Boggs was a coal miner who recorded songs in a very traditional style, along with some, like 'Mean Mistreater Blues', that he could only have learned from a record of a black woman singing the blues. Texas fiddler Bob Wills picked cotton side by side with black people in West Texas and dreamed of the day when he could meld the fiddle tunes, the blues, and pop songs into an idiosyncratic whole--a day that, thanks to the radio, was soon coming his way.  White Jimmie Rodgers recorded black-derived blues, accompanied by his guitar, with both the Carter Family, whose roots were Appalachian but who employed a black man to seek out black tunes for them, and with Louis Armstrong, who occasionally indulged in a passion for white pop while he was reinventing jazz cornet playing".
 * From Ace Collins' The Stories Behind Country Music's All-Time Greatest 100 Songs (Collins' opinions represented elsewhere in the book pretty much prove that he is no Afrocentric liberal claiming blacks invented everything, FTR), in the chapter devoted to Jimmie Rodgers' "Blue Yodel #1/T for Texas", "(Rodgers) sang a few folk standards, but mainly he 'invented' songs of his own that combined several different musical styles. It is doubtful that Jimmie envisioned that he was creating a whole new sound by combining the white rural music he had heard as a child with the Negro odes he was now playing (while working on railroads with mostly black workers)".  Collins' chapter on the Carter Family's "Can the Circle Be Unbroken" claims that that song "brought to the forefront the gospel and religious elements which had so helped to shape early country music".  Collins' chapter on Bob Wills' "San Antonio Rose" says that Wills worked in the fields with poor blacks "who sang blues and gospel as they toiled in the hot sun.  It was this influence that reshaped a Southern boy's musical outlook... He tried to combine the white and black sounds into a singular strain... Bob took a strong interest in black jazz (and was) trying to combine this urban musical style with the western sounds of rural Texas", and Collins even claims that Wills originally called his style "Western jazz", though it is now better known as Western swing, which is usually considered a kind of country music.
 * The Rough Guide to World Music says that Jimmie Rodgers "brought a showman's sophistication to hillbilly music by incorporating Tin Pan Alley, blues, and western influences" and that there "was a lot of blues in Rodgers' songs, many of which followed the twelve-bar format, though with a two-to-the-bar feel".
 * From the Panorama of American Popular Music, written by David Ewen way back in 1957, when most writers were probably little inclined to give black people credit even when they did deserve it (and well before the rise of Afrocentrism or other liberal boogeymen), "the techniques and idioms, moods and atmospheres, personality and idiosyncrasies of Negro songs have formed the bone and tissue of our popular musical expression", though admittedly nothing directly equivalent to country music is specifically cited in this section ("the bone and tissue of our popular musical expression" is pretty clear, I think).
 * None of these even bring up the influence of black vaudeville jug bands, who played Appalachian styles using improvised instruments in a black tradition that dates back to slave times. Even modern country is basically indistinguishable from modern rock, itself an originally black style.  The first major field of country pop was the Nashville sound, which was created by making honky tonk less rough and more jazzy; people who didn't like the Nashville sound preferred the Bakersfield sound and Lubbock sound, which were both just as much rock and blues as Anglo-Celtic.
 * In short, you are simply wrong. The music of the United States (folk, popular, classical and theatrical), is, like every country in the Americas, a fusion of African, European and native music in varying degrees and styles.  I do not think that any music historian would dispute that country is extremely strongly influenced by black music -- if you can find such a person, you may of course cite his or her opinion in accordance with Wikipedia's NPOV policy -- as a matter of fact, I doubt you could find a person well-educated in the field who would deny that the blues is "the fundamental basis" of country music, with the influence of Anglo-Celtic music being what separates country from other kinds of blues (blues itself is also a mixture of African, European and native elements, however, though much, much more African than anything else). Tuf-Kat 20:27, Jun 12, 2005 (UTC)
 * The only thing you appear to be correct about is that flamenco is Spanish and not Mexican (more precisely, Andalusian, and even more precisely, a mixture of Gypsy and North African music with Spanish music). I don't see where flamenco is mentioned in either version of this article, though, so I presume I'm missing something? Tuf-Kat 20:30, Jun 12, 2005 (UTC)

You are still ignorant of the article's focus and prejudiced in disposition against Whites. A Negro spiritual is Voodoo. Christian music is European. Where is your knowledge or even disputation of the Classical influence, so prominent in Georgian Britain and Country music? Have you ever watched the movie Rob Roy? What of poor White work songs, which defined the first blues of Crackers? The addition of Black contributions is outside the scope of Country itself. There is already a more appropriate subgenre article called Country blues for you to possibly expound upon, but you haven't responded to that at all as I have to now repeat it. Country music was formed by Whites living on the frontier of American colonial life--See Royal Proclamation of 1763. These people went through the Cumberland Gap, long before any Black person even showed his face out of the plantations and into the backwoods. They made Country and Western music, in what we call the Boonies. Go on ahead and along with your Afrocentric racism. I'm sure we will all benefit from your ignorant POV. Country music long predated the freedom of slaves. You are not helping the truth of this article. With the Flamenco topic, it seems you are more inclined to try and defeat the logic of my reasoning than see the lesson I am teaching. You cannot defy the truth, but you would rather ignore it for the sake of PC nonsense. People are also ignorant of the British origins of Cowboy life in that article, and assume that it was all a Mexican import to the USA. People here seem to have an agenda against giving credit where credit is due. Farming and herding economy was prevalent in Northern Britain, on the Scottish border country. Rustling came from border reivers, but y'all would try to change reality. This is the culture that Whites brought to the American backcountry from Northern Britain. No amount of revisionist propaganda will cheat them of this truth! ScapegoatVandal 22:17, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

...and this is my only big problem wit hthe Wikipedia: dealing with rasict statements like "Black people dion't influence country/western music." If you can't hear the influence of the blues and the Negro spirituals in country/western music, then I don't know what to tell you. What is ths fascist "are there no genuine contributions of my people to America's foundations?" --FuriousFreddy 22:39, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * ScapegoatVandal is either quite ignorant about the history of U.S. Country Music, in which case I would urge the user to read up on the music's history, or else is deliberately misrepresenting facts. Statements like "A Negro spiritual is Voodoo" clearly show that the user either has no idea what they are talking about, is trolling, or attempting to place misinformation here. Anglo-Celtic folk music traditions were no doubt of great importance to early historical country, but by the time Jimmie Rodgers and (the already middle aged) Uncle Dave Macon made their first recordings, the influence of African American music was already obvious. Any strictly lily-white version of the music is clearly something historic from long before Uncle Dave Macon's time. -- Infrogmation 23:21, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Agreed. 199 23:23, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * And I still have no idea what flamenco has to do with anything. BTW, if someone wanted to take some of those quotes and weave them into the article, you can copy and paste the complete references from music of the United States (and let me know if you want some more context on anything).  I'll be away from the net for a couple weeks coming up soon, and I'm going to aim for getting that article (MotUS) to featured status before I go, so I won't have time to do it, but some direct quotes and references would be a help to this article. Tuf-Kat 03:15, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)
 * At the risk of further feeding the troll, I feel compelled to point out that this article does not denigrate white American culture. The United States is a melting pot, and country music incorporates Hawaiian steel guitar, Scottish border ballads and Irish dance music, and African American blues -- the fact that this is not a wholesale importation of British music hardly denigrates anything.  White American culture is a mixture of elements, as is black American culture and music, which combines instruments, styles and techniques from hundreds of ethnic groups in West Africa, as well as Arab, Spanish, British, Irish, German, Native American and Latin styles.  My point is that white Americans do have their own wonderful varieties of folk, classical and popular music -- of course no one picked up the culture of Scotland and England and dropped it in the middle of Tennesee; white music is a mixture of all the aforementioned styles.  And even British music is hardly "pure" anything; music takes on elements from surrounding styles quite easily, and British music has taken dance music from Poland, Bohemia, Germany and France, with classical music from those countries and the Netherlands, Italy and more, with fiddling styles and other folk music from Scandinavia and elsewhere, not to mention the pan-Celtic melting pot adding to the mix, and of course more modern elements from the Caribbean, South Asia and beyond. Furthermore, check out Music_history_of_the_United_States_to_1900, which goes into details on Negro spirituals, which originally used hymns written by white people like Isaac Watts, using white-invented techniques like lined-out hymnody and shape-note -- no one's trying to erase whites from American music, but they don't call it a melting pot for nothing.  Tuf-Kat 03:43, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)

Everybody has a POV and you clearly want yours to be THE truth. You have yet to try and refute the other individual arguments I have put forth. For all the avoidance of dialogue, your silence is telling. Sorry, but the Wiki is failing society with such an Afrocentric kleptocracy(RE inventors also). It happens with Jews on this website too, as if Jews don't get enough POV press in the professional media over Israel vs Palestine/Iraq or even by inserting themselves in the debate about Christmas displays on public property. You will ruin it for others as other Hippies have done too. Now I know from my language, you will try to ban me for my political stances as if this were the Soviet Union. My-oh-my FuriousFreddy, you know how to casually libel as a sidestep to actual discussion and discernation over facts and figures. Character assassination at its best. Infrogmation, you don't even believe that Alan Greenspan is Jewish and removed the fact from that article! I believe that your presence here is merely to pick a fight and join the gangbang for some glory in holding another man down with anti-White bigotry(anti-Semitic too?). 199, that doesn't count for even a semblance of a position on the issue. Please tell me how you really feel. TUF-KAT, flamenco is a related argument that I presented to show you what I meant in this one. You insist on ignoring half the things I say in order to merely hear only what you want to say. None of you really know what the Country and Western life is all about, but I do. I am a Redneck on the Jesusland map. You can have fun laughing it up. I'm sure your anti-White South/pro-Black South revisionist prejudice will suffice for truth. All the people I know(inc. non-Uncle Tom Blacks), admit the things I say and refute what you unfairly propagandise. You will only know how it is, if you've lived the life. I know for a fact that you just touch the tip in knowing what you're talking about and are passing by word of mouth. I don't know what Djibouti is like, so I will not interfere or interlope and meddle in their affairs. See the comparative argument? I sincerely hope you don't bullshit me by playing stupid and calling me a troll(which is in and of itself a form of trolling) to avoid dealing with the truth. Learn to interpret my statements in the context by which they are given, or keep on trolling with pro-melting pot POV. Please lay off and mature. ScapegoatVandal 04:20, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * I've already invited you to cite your sources and expand the article. If you don't want to do that, then there's not really anything else to discuss.  If you don't have any sources, then your first step is to find them.  Furthermore, don't lecture me about your country authenticity -- I am a conservative southern redneck, and IIRC Infrogmation is a Southern boy as well; I listen to country music on a daily basis.  I wear heavy boots, wifebeaters, a bent-brim baseball hat and a large belt buckle, work manual labor (in a multiracial group -- sound familiar?), eat black-eyed peas, cornbread, catfish, okra and all the rest... That doesn't mean I'm not capable of reading some books (you know, written by people that study these kinds of things for a living and, believe it or not, are not rewarded for every invention they successfully fool people into thinking comes from Africa -- why on earth would there be a giant conspiracy among musicologists to promote the influence of blues in country music?  And don't give me any guff about blaming political correctness; I've got sources dating back to the 1950s, giving specific elements of African music that were brought to the New World with slaves and then spread among people of all races -- this is not disputed outside of

his talk page), and understanding books and being able to enjoy cultural similarities between myself and people who may not have the precise amount of melanin in skin cells as I. Tuf-Kat 05:37, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)

As for the sources, I highly doubt that the media(who originally pushed what you support) has let through such things without first stigmatising them as racist(outright in editorials and subtley in films) and those who have been the proponents of such as branded fools. You are not going to be happy with any source, even from the horse's mouth. I also don't eat some Southern food, simply because some New World items don't agree with my digestive system. Here is another comparison: Whenever I hear jazz, I think of Paris, Montreal, Acadia or New Orleans and cafes with cappuchinos. Some people like you, might want to credit the Blacks for all of that. The saxophone and trumpet are Continental instruments and this is how I will always view them, no matter who wields and uses one. When I listen to Texan Pantera's balladic jazzy metal guitar solos, it never once occurs to me that this would sound African. It reminds me of the French, from whom the slaves in the Deep South got a sense of European cultural estimations from in the first place. I know what real African music sounds like, because I hear it in cultural studies on television and movies. There was also a very famous and internationally acclaimed song from the recent decades about African poverty and I was not bothered by it one bit. I truely respect their issues, which is more than I will ever feel for those that try to thieve from me my own identity as somehow a bastard. It is true that Whites chained Blacks, but Whites also chained Whites inasmuch as Blacks chained Blacks. Each developed their own blues from this hard labour with no end in sight. Each had to contribute much to their people and each deserves the respect of acknowledgement. You still ignore this fact, that Whites formed their own blues and don't even comment on it. I already said that you might want to include the African contributions in Country blues, but you have yet to acknowledge the heart of what I am getting at since it disagrees with your POV. I have no problem seeing Reggae as Black and I recognise that Whites have added nothing to it. Why can't you see that I require the same respect? Why can't you be fair? The world isn't fair and you don't give a damn if you're going to win. ScapegoatVandal 08:38, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

PS: I am sure you'll try to convince me that because the drum was not widely know in Europe while it flourished in Africa, that heavy metal music is African. Nevermind the European marching drums of war, based upon the earlier and often ineffective methods of shield-bashing to frighten the enemy. You want it all to have some African basis. It is like the evolutionary single region hypothesis vs the multi region hypothesis is quieted by discussion of the POV in which the single diminishes totally and completely the less accentuated and "variant others". Of course this is the mantra of the Same-Shit-Different-Day revision of White contributions to history by envious and jealous non-Whites, just like how Muslims blow themselves to smithereens because they can't be as good as us and it just "kills them". I don't look at the history of Mongolian Genghis Khan with awe. That is their story which inflicted mass amounts of terror and pain into my people, which we will never forget. You seem to think that I should change my mind and be overcome with some subjugated worship in their favour so I can bastard my identity for theirs. When were African-Americans ever envied by Whites of all persuasions, besides the African animalistic freedom of developed civilisation? Perhaps and I reckon, that this influenced much laxity in imitative forms of European music and impelled White artists to try new venues. This however did not inspire the majority of Whites in the Country and Western culture, to tutor themselves by the Black example. Because a country artist can learn to play guitar from a Black instructor, doesn't mean he took it with him to the records. Surely, some C & W Whites most likely tried a few African tunes in their garage and basement. What you are looking too hard for, is not even there. That is what you see in the ghettos of cities where people do not listen to C & W. That is exemplified by people like White rapper Eminem, although I sincerely think that you do not understand the difference between this and to put it in appropriate context. You don't want to think, just be complacent with controversial propaganda as if it were the words of God. I admit that there is less concern for the blending today, although nothing comes of it really. Historical influences? Hardly! One bad apple does not make them all bad, which I say without intent to offend any Black or incite prejudice. It is a simple fact of the issue. You only need to use your mind and heart to assess the truth, if you really cared and weren't scared to do so. ScapegoatVandal 09:08, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * If you can find a notable source expressing your opinion, I would not mind including that in this article. Tuf-Kat 13:26, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps you can quit this ad hominem revert spree and we'll talk. For now, you are my enemy! ScapegoatVandal 14:01, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * If you can't cite your sources, discussion is irrelevant and unproductive, since it won't have anything to do with changing the article. Tuf-Kat 14:32, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)

Hey dude, Infrogmation thinks Alan Greenspan isn't Jewish. Tell me, where are his sources? ScapegoatVandal 15:22, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Why would you ask me? Tuf-Kat 15:40, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)
 * Possibly because I already know what the troll says is false, while others may take what he says at face value. -- Infrogmation.
 * How do you dispute with me, what is already written elsewhere about Greenspan on the Wiki? You are merely taking it out on me and calling me a troll to avoid seeing my humanity.  How is that not trollery?  ScapegoatVandal 20:08, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

You also think it fit to revert anything I have done to antagonise me in frustration. Come come, where are your neutral sources? Can't get enough of post-1965 Great Society, can ya? ScapegoatVandal 15:53, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Cite your sources and use the dispute resolution procedure if you like. Tuf-Kat 16:04, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)

I'd rather not cowardly have others hold my hand or gather enmasse to put forth weight in my stead. I have balls and will happily stand my ground on my own. Your truth is in numbers and the dissemination of propaganda to complacently witless people on a fad diet. ScapegoatVandal 16:26, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Stand away. Tuf-Kat 16:32, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)

I'm watching this one play out. ScapegoatVandal 17:41, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)