Talk:Country music/Archive 2

Czech Country
Should this be added to "Country Music Outside the US?" Its apparently quite popular there (and local Czech country music is very similar to a lot of American country).

Popularity- http://www.allbusiness.com/retail-trade/miscellaneous-retail-retail-stores-not/4647203-1.html Most popular radio station in Prague (Country): http://www.countryradio.cz/lng/en/index.php —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.160.221.4 (talk) 03:49, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Criticisms

 * Part of this conversation thread has been archived at Talk:Country music/Archive 1.

Opening the issue again
Having given this issue some time to cool off I am now going to work on readding a description of praises and criticisms of country music. I note that none of my objections to removal have been addressed but I have altered the presentation of the material. Hyacinth 10:51, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

One criticism of the article is this notion that Charlie Daniels is - 'neocountry'. What is that supposed to be? Silly article - like so many on wiki. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.56.141.183 (talk) 01:46, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Rodgers/Carter
At the moment the article is basically organized as Rodgers v. Carter, with other influences being accorded a lesser role. If we were writing this article in 1950, that might be a reasonable way to proceed (though I'd still be skeptical). However, I think that at this stage it's a bit of a stretch. Western swing is every bit as important as Jimmie Rodgers influence in modern day country, and the Eagles are way more important than the Carter family (no value judgment -- that's just the way it is.) Do other people agree with me, or are people happy with the way the article is currently organized? NoahB 15:41, 11 July 2005 (UTC)


 * I'll weigh in here 2 years later because your assertion is absurd that "the Eagles are way more important than the Carter family (no value judgment -- that's just the way it is)". The Eagles were more important than the Carter Family to the development of Country Music? It's an untrue and ignorant statement. By the way, what you said IS a value judgment" Buster 12:39, 5 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I would have to disagree with you. The Carter Family is still influencing music almost 70 years since their first recording (as is Jimmie Rodgers).


 * I do not dispute the importance of both the Carter Family and Jimmie Rodgers, but I am struggling to understand the two "strands". What makes one distinct from the other? Why is bluegrass music characterised in the Carter Family strand, when Jimmie Rodgers' influence on the music (particularly vocal styles and subject matter) is clearly so strong? This needs a better explanation (with citations, please! It sounds like someone's personal theory) in the article, or should be removed. Cmadler 18:52, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

The analytical split is a commonly made one, we need to find sources. Hyacinth 11:19, 9 April 2006 blablabla(UTC)

"New Country" seems missing
I take issue with this article's implication that the post-70's "Nashville Sound" is the same things as the 90's-naughties crossover pop-country sound popularized by (among others) Garth Brooks and Faith Hill. I didn't start listening to country til the mid 90s, precisely because it had stopped sounding the way it used to -- well, at least country *radio* did.

And where's Fan Fair?? --Baylink 02:35, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

yes but "new country" is not country it is whatever is making money at the time Soulpatrol 18:07, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Is Soulpatrol's assertion representative of the views of the rest of the wiki community? Does this justify the exclusion of "young country" from the main article? -Grammaticus Repairo 21:02, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

I removed the New Country section, it was a complete mess that had no structure. No problem with it being in the article, but really, take a look at the history and try reading it-- I dare you. Either make it somewhat comprehensive with proper grammar or don't include it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.207.239.36 (talk) 15:36, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Rather than take the time to develop referenced material people often will paste in whole sections from other web sites. The quality of those sites is often not very good, and is this is not supposed to happen. Regarding "Nashville", "New Country", "Traditional Country", etc, in general you can't define "country music" by pointing at one period in time. It changes as it goes along. People slap labels on things, but the labels themselves are often very poorly defined. Those terms are often made up by industry people and I don't think any of those labels are very helpful, although they would be good to mention within other text; but I think it would be best to define them, and be more specific about them in articles devoted to that subject. Rockabilly, which was country in the 50s, is one example. You could look at the "Outlaw Country" article, too. Most important artists aren't stuck making one kind of music. Look at Johnny Cash or WIllie Nelson, for examples. Steve Pastor (talk) 21:18, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Definition
What is Country Music? I mean what exactly defines it as a genre?
 * Very good question and the answer is... well, I know it when I see it (to coin a phrase). Rmhermen 15:43, 3 February 2006 (UTC)


 * And why aren't we using the word genre, instead of amalgam? Ken 05:24, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Because it's usually defined as a genre instead of an amalgam. Thus, that would constitute original research.  The answer is that nothing really defines country music.  It's a social construction and always has been; there are various characteristics that are or have been common in country and not in other genres, but there's nothing that can be considered a definitive characteristic.  This is true of most genres of music, I think. Tuf-Kat 22:32, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
 * But there is a distinctive sound that characterises country music. It can easily be told apart from other genres. The article really doesn't explore what country really is, and I really think it should. The article should at least talk about trends in country, such as themes of heartbreak, the prevalent use of steel string acoustic guitars, often accompanied by pedal steel guitar etc. 82.41.10.26 (talk) 19:38, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Opry
I don't think I've ever read a history of country music that didn't discuss the Opry. (and what about Hee Haw!) I just don't know how to rework the structure here. Rmhermen 15:43, 3 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Its mentioned. Hyacinth 11:17, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Catch-all?
I disagree with the above sentence from the introduction as most of the "genres" listed are subgenres of country music, not seperate genres put under a catch-all umbrella. Hyacinth 10:40, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
 * "However, country music is actually a catch-all category that embraces several different genres of music..."

Cleanup
The list at Country music needs to be annotated. Hyacinth 11:10, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

I can't believe nobody else has caught this gigantic glaring problem ...

 * See also discussion at Talk:Country music.

... which can be summarized by asking: "What country?" Seriously, that's what I ask when people ask if I like "country music".

Now I should say at the git-go that I'm American, and I do like (some) "country" music, so I shouldn't be the one complaining about this, right? Except that some folks here have apparently forgotten that TWIAVBP.

I tried to find this page by typing in "american country music", which is where I'd have expected to have found this, but was astounded when that page came up not found.

That's what this article should be titled, not just "country music", as if the whole rest of the world was somehow incapable of having "country" music of its own, or should bow its head to the greatness and uniqueness of 'Merkin country. So what say we "move" this article there? (Along with setting up appropriate disambiguation pages and all.) ==ILike2BeAnonymous 07:58, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
 * The easy solution, which will take you about 2 minutes to do, is to create, on your own, an article called "American Country Music". The only thing you put in the article is a redirect to "Country Music".  Then if anyone types "American Country Music" into the seach box, they will end up at the music article.  And you will be satisfied.... Hayford Peirce 16:18, 21 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, yes, I'm aware of that option, thank you. But what I think ought to be done is to move this article to "American country music". "Country music" should properly be a disambiguation page, though I haven't researched what else would link there. Do you think there is, or would be, resistance to implementing this scheme of things? ==ILike2BeAnonymous 18:26, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Yer gonna have 2000 'Merkins up in arms. They believe there is only ONE kinda Country music, and it is 'Merkin country music.  And I gotta say, I've lived in other countries for 25 years, off and on, and I never heard anyone say "English country music", for instance, nor "musique du pays français", nor "Tahitian country music."  Although I will admit that I flew on Air New Zealand once, and one of the sound tracks had *excellent* "New Zealand country music" -- but it was pure imitation of Nashville.  But, of course, you can go ahead and make the change.  Then head for the tornado cellar.... Hayford Peirce 18:40, 21 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm ready to do it (in a hot New York minute, as they say), except for one detail: the "country music" disambig page. Need to research what would go there. Any ideas? (I'm lazy at the moment.) ==ILike2BeAnonymous 19:43, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Nope, not a clue. Good luck!  (You're gonna need it!) Hayford Peirce 20:05, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Maybe we could tone down the hyperbole? Hyacinth 23:43, 23 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree. We should have an article on country music, which is a style that exists in many countries, as well as articles specifically on country music in places like Australia and Japan.  There are genres unrelated to "country music" which are sometimes called "country music", but they aren't listed here.  Puerto Rican plena and Thai luk thung, I believe, but these are exceptions with more common and less ambiguous titles available. Tuf-Kat 21:59, 24 April 2006 (UTC)


 * How about just expanding the existing disambiguation page, and adding articles for these topics there? That would seem to make more sense. ==ILike2BeAnonymous 22:06, 24 April 2006 (UTC)


 * How does the existing disambiguation page make more sense? We are saying we need a discussion of country music as a whole. Why doesn't that make sense? Hyacinth 01:42, 25 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, that would work if you believe there actually is some generic entity called "country music" (or perhaps "la musique du pays" or something). I don't think it exists; at least, not in the way that this very identifiable genre known as "[American] country" does. So to me, such an article would make no sense. I think it would be a real stretch to draw parallels between, say, American country and Puerto Rican plena. Which is why a category or disambiguation page makes more sense, as a repository for similar but different things. ==ILike2BeAnonymous 01:49, 25 April 2006 (UTC)


 * You misunderstand -- there are no parallels between "American country music" (which is also Canadian, British and Australian, just to start) and plena. A huge majority of the time, the term "country music" in the English language refers to a specific style of popular music.  According to our naming conventions, that means we should have an article on that topic titled country music.  My point on plena and luk thung was that they are abnormal exceptions, virtually always introduced as "Plena is a kind of Puerto Rican country music... Plena is... Plena dates to... Plena was... Plena singer" -- in other words, it's called plena, not Puerto Rican country music.  That's an issue for country music (disambiguation), which should be dab blocked at country music.  It's a curious coincidence that "country music" is used descriptively in two unrelated instances rather than specifically, but that has nothing to do with the ordinary English meaning of the word. Tuf-Kat 01:53, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
 * And there is a "generic entity" called "country music" (not sure what you mean by "generic entity", but I think there is). Would you like me to cite sources? Tuf-Kat 01:54, 25 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Not cite sources, necessarily, but just a general description: give me the fifty-cent tour. ==ILike2BeAnonymous 01:59, 25 April 2006 (UTC)


 * OK, since it seems you may know more about this subject than I do, let me ask you this: looking at this from the other way around, what does "country music" mean to non-English speakers? (This is an English encyclopedia, but that, of course, doesn't mean its articles should be limited to an English-speaking point of view.) By the way, I'm going to have to read your comments a couple more times and digest before responding further. ==ILike2BeAnonymous 01:58, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
 * What do non-English speakers mean by "country music"? Well, I guess most don't mean anything by it, because it's an English word.  Puerto Ricans certainly don't call plena "country music".  Do they call it the Spanish equivalent?  Not to the best of my knowledge, though that could explain why plena is sometimes described as "country" while other rural music isn't.  Definitely, plena is by far the most common word in either language.  If non-English speakers actually use the English term "country music", it's probably analogous to how they use "rock" -- i.e. it refers to the same discrete unit it refers to in English.  I don't think other languages frequently use translations (e.g. "musique du pays") to mean anything.  I suppose it could be effectively synonymous with "folk music" in some languages, or maybe "music of the country" (as opposed to a different country, or as opposed to urban music), but none of these usages would warrant an article. Tuf-Kat 02:12, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
 * (via edit conflict with the below section about the French Wikipedia) Okay, the only source I have that covers plena, luk thung and "American country music" is the Rough Guide to World Music, which describes luk thung under a heading "Thai country music", which starts off "When reigning queen Pompuang Duangjan died in 1992 at the tender age of 31, many thought it was the end of an era for pleng luk thung (Thai 'country music')." The rest of that article refers to it as "luk thung", which it translates as "child of the fields".  The article on Puerto Rica has a section called "Danza and Plena" which says "Plenas featured prominently in the repertoire of the jibaro (country) artists of the 1930s and 40s".  (I'm pretty sure that's an unusual usage)  The article on Appalachian folk music is the only part of the books (which cover the music of almost every country in the world) where "country music" is used more than once (referring to "American country music") and in a non-parenthetical or quotational context. Tuf-Kat 02:25, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I'll also note that the Spanish version of country music is all about the US and doesn't appear to mention Puerto Rico. There is no Thai article (not that I'd be able to make heads or tails out of it) Tuf-Kat 02:31, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I've moved this back to country music and made a disambiguation page. Tuf-Kat 00:35, 2 May 2006 (UTC)


 * LOL! Country has more than one meaning, it doesn't hjave to mean a soveriegn government. Remember the story where those two mice switch places, one who was "country" and the other was "town"? THAT country! "Country," at least as far as i know in the english language, is an expression as well as referring to actual countries, doi.

What "Country Music" means to French Wikipedians
Go to the French Wiki site. Type in "country music". You will be taken to an article called "Musique Country". The first paragraph reads: La musique country, ou country (autrefois « country and western ») est une musique étasunienne née dans les Appalaches et dans le pays profond, du Texas jusqu'en Virginie-Occidentale. Rythmique ou traînante, sentimentale ou émouvante, la country vient des musiques folkloriques celtes des immigrés irlandais et écossais. Cette musique, avec le blues et le rhythm and blues noirs, a fort contribué au développement du rock.
 * I will take the liberty of giving a rough translation: Country music, or country (before, "country and western" is a United States type of music born in the Applachians and in the backwoods, from Texas to West Virginia. Rhythmic or dragging, sentimental or moving, country comes from the folkloric celtic musics of the irish and scottish immigrants.  This music, along with the blues and the negro rhythm and blues, has greatly contributed to the development of rock.
 * I would suggest that this substantiates what some of the other people have been saying (and with which I am 100% in agreement), that "country music" means, worldwide, in most languages, just exactly what us 'Merkins take it to mean. It doesn't mean back-country music sung by Aussie diggers, or French peasants, or Russian kulaks, or Tahitian fishermen.  It means Hank Williams, the Carters, George Jones, and, for all I know, George Strait and all the modern ones.  So I, for one, think "American Country Music" ought to be renamed "Country Music", just the way the article on jazz is called "Jazz," not "American Jazz" or "Russian Jazz" or "Cuban Jazz", but just plain "Jazz." Hayford Peirce 02:25, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Agreed on all points. Out of curiosity, I noted above that, while "French country music" and "Russian country music", for example, don't mean anything (except "American country music played in France"), Puerto Rico and Thailand are exceptions in English, where plena/jibaro and luk thung are sometimes described as "country".  In French, is an equivalent term ever used? Tuf-Kat 02:29, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
 * If there is, I never heard of it. And no self-respecting Parisian would ever play, or sing, French country music in the first place.  I think the closest we would find would be something like "J'aime bien l'ancienne musique francaise folklorique." -- "I like old-fashioned French folkloric music" such as the peasants used to sing in the 14th century or some such.  I know that in French conversation, at least with the relatively young, such as my kids, they say, "J'aime bien la contré."  By which they mean, "I like (American-style) country music." Hayford Peirce 02:37, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Interesting, thanks. Tuf-Kat

I'd never really considered why "country music" is used in this way, so I thought I'd some googling, and got some surprising results (doesn't change my opinion on what to do with this article though): 89.243.104.35 12:51, 12 April 2007 (UTC) country music is a style of music: any country can use this style but it will always sound the same (with the difference of language of course) and so you can define where a particular piece of country music comes from, but it will all be country music regardless of it's origin. of course countries have their own style of music which is traditional in their nation, but this is folk music and should not be confused with the country and western style. 89.243.104.35 12:51, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Puerto Rican country music - 106 hits
 * Thai country music - 566 hits
 * The below appear to be used entirely to mean American style country performed elsewhere
 * South African - 134
 * Japanese - 195
 * Brazilian - 831
 * Indian - 716 (all of which appear to be about "American style" as performed by Native Americans)
 * Chinese - 538
 * Russian - 3340
 * Other
 * Finnish - 39
 * Cuban - 313 (mostly guajira, I think)
 * Saudi - 18
 * Nigerian - 2
 * Armenian - 6
 * Mexican - 777 (mostly talking about ranchera)
 * Tahitian - 1

Golden age?
There is a list of artists from the "golden age" of country music, but from whose perspective was it the golden age?

The reality is that country music's sales peaked in the early 1990s. Modern-era artists, spearheaded by Garth Brooks, enjoyed sales, airplay, concert-attendances, and public profiles that far exceeded those of the vast majority of the artists from the 'golden era'.

Platinum country records did not exist in country music until the 1970s, and then it was outlaw country that smashed the records. Now, popular artists' albums go platinum in 2 weeks and the top 10 artists routinely go 4 and 5 times platinum.

Platinum records, period, didn't exist until the 1970s. Record sales were focused on 45 singles until the advent of 'album oriented rock' pioneered by Bob Dylan, the Beatles, and later, The Who, Led Zeppelin and Pink Floyd. Giant selling LPs of the 70s included 'Frampton Comes Alive', 'Saturday Night Fever' and 'Eagles Greatest Hits'. Despite this, Peter Frampton, the Bee-Gees and the Eagles remain over shadowed today by the likes of Elvis Presley, the Beatles, Frank Sinatra and the Beach Boys. Album sales are not the only measurement of popularity or legacy!

With people like Kenny Chesney, Toby Keith, Rascal Flatts, Keith Urban, Faith Hill, and Tim McGraw (and Garth Brooks and Alan Jackson before them) having exposure, sales, airplay, and celebrity status that the 'golden age' artist could only dream of, in what way was the other era 'golden'??

There's a distinct lack of information on modern day country music.
 * Because many people consider this modern era of country nothing more than pop music with some slide guitar and the occasional fiddle thrown in. But I will agree that "Golden Era of Country Music" is not NPOV. It's biased for sure... unless a critical consensus can be found stating that the 60s, 70s AND the 80s were the "Golden Era".Buster 12:12, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject Country Music
I'm trying to round up some volunteers to help kick off WikiProject Country Music. Please see the temporary project page for more information. -- Tantalum T  e  lluride ♪ 00:21, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

"Reception" section
This section needs a makeover. Maybe some of it should be split off to a "sociology of country music" article or something - I know know, but it really doesn't fit well with this article.

I've noticed this same problem with a number of the country-music related articles here that they contain some obfuscation-laden, uber-accademic sounding prose - some of which sounds rather post-modernist. (I'm sure this is a problem in other areas of Wikipedia as well, but it really stands out like  for topics like this one.)

And yes, it's good to cite some scholarly sources, but we can paraphrase from them - if they're dull and bland and no-fun to read then we don't need to repeat their mistakes. And yes, it's good to have inteligent and insightful analysis, but that doesn't mean that the writing style can't be direct, straight-forward, and fun to read. As a matter of fact, obfuscationist-style prose is usually a disguise for the fact that the author doesn't have anything creative or original to say!

ENpeeOHvee 03:25, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

"Soundtrack to Domestic Violence"
Does anybody else find this as offensive as I do?


 * Heh; I kinda like it. Shoe fits, and all that. ==ILike2BeAnonymous 17:48, 11 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, ya see, I don't think it quite fits; songs like "Years" or "The Gambler" or "He Talks To Me" are so not about domestic violence; yeah, I've heard the phrase before, but perhaps it should be placed later in the article, such as the section on perception of the genre.

Early Country
While on Archive.org I found an earlier recording of "The wrek of the old 97" by Ernest Thompson (i wikied the name and only found some guy born in 1948 but this song is from 1924, yet this is not in the article at all i just woundered if there was a reason why this thopson guy isnt mentioned in the article here is the URL for the songWrek of 97 1924 version--Familyguyfan1990 04:59, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

in the South?
The article states that "Country music, also known as country and western music or country-western, is an amalgam of popular musical forms found in the Southern United States." I agree. Country music is just Southern. It is not all American. It might have all of its fans down south, but we should exclude other Americans who live in the North. Therefore, disregard this, I suck. Thanks, (LonghornJohnny 01:16, 2 September 2006 (UTC))
 * I think you've misunderstood: what the article is saying is that country music is DERIVED from forms of music originally found in the South. It is NOT saying that country music is only limited to the South, or only popular there, just that it CAME OUT OF the South.  So I'm going to reinstate the word "Southern". Hayford Peirce 02:35, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree with Hayford Peirce. Country music is clearly an "amalgam of" southern popular musics.  ("amalgam" might not be the greatest word  - though more for its wonkiness than inaccuracy) Tuf-Kat 05:48, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

This article should discuss more about Patsy Cline's influence on Country music and other country singers to have influenced country music. (LovePatsyCline 01:15, 3 October 2006 (UTC)) Why is there not a section devoted to country music and its cultural value and/or effects? Wikichange 05:44, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I do belive that country music is a ALl American Genre of music it is just the pearson that decides to listen to it or not04:20, 5 December 2006 (UTC)TobyKiethbaby

Under Western Swing I changed the words Big Band JIZZ to Big band JAZZ. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.67.7.151 (talk) 05:05, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Country and culture?
Why is there not a section devoted to country music and its cultural value and/or effects? Wikichange 05:44, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

African-American country section
Am I the only one who thinks that this section is just too long? It seems out of proportion length-wise to the article as a whole. Not to mention that very few sources are cited. Perhaps it should be a separate article?

There is enough biographical information on some of the people in that section to justify individual "pages" for each. The section itself is - at about 1/2 the country page - way out of proportion to the importance of material within the overall subject of country western music. A section similar to the one that existed before the back to back posts on September 13 and 14 2006 would be appropriate. Steve Pastor 20:29, 8 January 2007 (UTC) Having written what I wrote earlier, I hope to see a summary of the African American country material back here. I have just been reminded of Ray Charles' hit recording of CW music, and hope to find a place for it. Here's sample text "But Charles fooled them all; the album went to No. 1, as did one of its singles, Charles' rendition of Don Gibson's "I Can't Stop Loving You." He soon followed the album up with "Modern Sounds in Country and Western Music, Vol. 2." Maybe we should be talking about how this whole article is structured. Steve Pastor 23:27, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Removal of sentences regarding the effect of Line Dancing
Please explain the recent deletion. It was most certainly NOT vandalism. I have been a CW music fan for many years, and only contribute material that is referenced. Chet Akins certainly has knowledge of, and credibilty within the CW music community. Again, please state the reason for the deletion. Steve Pastor 20:38, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Having gotten no reply to the above question, I have once again added the deleted text, which is a comment on mid 1990s CW music from an industry insider. Steve Pastor 22:14, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Country vs. Western music
I think this article should explain the differences that once existed between country music and "Western music". From what I've seen, modern western music (cowboy music) is often just referred to as country. When the intro refers to country music as "the first half of Billboard's country and western music category", is this still correct given that everyone seems to refer to modern western music as country? --Cab88 18:30, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

To me it's still country western. Using that term rather than just country would go a long way to clear up any concerns about which country are you taking about? "Western" would function as an adjective and identify it as uniquely North American. Country Western is pretty much the combination of Eastern mountain music and western "cowboy" music. It is of course more complicated than that, but I think it best if you start with a descriptive name, describe it simply, THEN begin adding information about the complexity of the thing. The referenced item at the beginning of this article should in my opinion not determine the clearest naming and explanation of this music. Steve Pastor 22:53, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

(Capitalizing "Western" here is grammatically correct, though "country" would not be, accurately, as the former is used in a proper noun context, as in, Western United States, since this was the point behind the term Western songs.) From introduction as part of discussion of the name. Steve Pastor (talk) 17:30, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Regarding "Young Country"
Another user, apparently some time ago as it is #3 on the list of discussion topics, inquired about what they referred to as the lack of any real information regarding "New Country". By this user's description, I believe they were asking about what I have been told by country music fans is generally known as "Young Country". The first time I heard it, the categorization that I came up with off the top of my head was "Hard Country". Regardless of what it is called, I don't really see it getting the discussion time it deserves in the article. Like this other user, I am NOT a fan of traditional country music, for the most part, and found "Young Country" appealing precisely because it does NOT sound like the traditional country music heard on radio prior the 1990's. In fact, many of the hardcore "old-school" country fans I know do not consider most of the music on country radio stations today to be 'country' music. None of the other articles about sub-genres of country music I have found on wikipedia seem to include much in the way of contemporary artists (i.e. the last 15 years). Given that this is almost the year 2007, I think that "Young Country", by whatever name called, ought to have either its own wiki entry, or at least a MENTION in the main 'country music' article. -Grammaticus Repairo 01:19, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

the popularity of Country
Garth Brooks and Elvis Presley are the top two solo recording artists of all time. Someone seems to have a problem with including those facts in the beginning paragraphs of this article. Please state your reasons.Steve Pastor 15:36, 28 December 2006 (UTC) It is important to establish how important "country" music is, even if a lot of people don't like it. Garth is one of two all time best selling artists, and not "just" of country, but any kind of music. This justifies him getting a mention in the beginning section of this article. Please justify any opposing views.Steve Pastor 21:56, 28 December 2006 (UTC)


 * According to List of best selling music artists, Garth Brooks is not "one of the top two solo recording artists" of all time. In fact there are 11 artists listed in the 250 million or more category, while he is only listed in the 100 million or more category along with about 30 other solo artists. --Deon Steyn 08:06, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

If you follow the Garth Brooks reference link on the wiki page you cite, you come to this statement - "Garth Brooks further lengthened his lead as the highest certified solo artist inhistory with cumulative sales" Also note the qualifier "solo", which eliminates any groups from consideration. Steve Pastor 15:34, 18 January 2007 (UTC)


 * That reference was from the Country Music Association, so yes he might be the top selling solo artist in their context (country music), but not one of the top selling solo artist of all time. That reference mentions sales of 104 million, while there are several solo artists listed in the 250 million + category. I don't know how to explain this more clearly: 10 solo artists sold more than 250 million albums, while he has sold just over 100 million, therefore he can not be called one of the two top solo artists, because he doesn't even make the top 10. --Deon Steyn 08:19, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Hey, Deon. I'm OK with the text the way it is. But just to continue the discussion... I note that many of the sales figures on the best selling page are qualified by words like "claims" or "estimated". Whereas the Garth figures come from some sort of actual accounting (albeit flawed like anything else). Meanwhile, have you looked at the Garth page, and have you considered adding clarity there? It has several paragraphs on this topic. Steve Pastor 18:16, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

What is this bot adding non English characters all about?
Thanks in advance.
 * The bot added a link for this article to wikipedia site in another language that shows up in the nav bar on the left hand side of you page. Cheers &mdash; Wils Bad Karma  ( Talk ) 20:23, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Why are the Rolling Stones listed as country
The people on the Rolling Stones page came to the consensus that they were a country band, do you feel this was the wrong decision?Hoponpop69 00:32, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't call them a country band, per se, but they've certainly played country music...quite a bit of it actually for a band not generally associated with the genre. And the genres influence on them is without question. As is the influence of Gram Parson on Keith Richards specifically who basically shaped the band's entire repetoire since the late 60s. Willie Nelson certainly respects the band since he seems to show up at many of their shows, and in turn, both Keith Richards and Ronnie Wood have showed up(and played) at many of his. The Stones are listed as reggae too. Again, like country, it isn't their full time genre....but they certainly play a lot of it. And again, like country music, they're very very good at it. 216.21.150.44 00:49, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Oi! Ray Charles had two very popular country albums, and played country with the Florida Playboys very early in his career. But Ray Charles is not a country artist. Many if not most musicians record songs that they find interesting, and play with people whose music they enjoy. Often they record them in their own style, rather than as straight ahead country. If you applied the same logic to the early days of rock 'n' roll, when country singers frequently recorded versions of blues tunes, you would have to list many, many singers and groups (too many to list here) as being blues, or rhythtm and blues musicians. Willie Nelson recently recorded a bunch of reggae. I don't think that makes him a reggae man. I have to argue that recording a few "country" songs doesn't make a preson or a group "country". There is so much history, and so much to write about for this article. Let's not water things down so much that the term "country" has no meaning. Steve Pastor 15:30, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I think what the first post was eluding that is that country is listed in the Rolling Stones infobox as one of the genres they play. It isn't list among their first 3 "prime" genres. Using your own example of Ray Charles...he also has country listed in his infobox. But, like the Stones, it's way down on the list. Both artists are rooted in the genre in some way. Having country in either infobox isn't too off the mark. But neither are significant enough country artists to be listed here in the main article. 156.34.216.230 23:00, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Country vs. Folk
It would be nice to see this distinction traced over the years. Sylvain1972 20:18, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I might try to elaborate on this a little. It is interesting that in the 1960s "country music" and "folk music" were seen as antithetical styles, whereas thirty or forty years before it probably would have been impossible to make any distinction between them.Sylvain1972 (talk) 18:19, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Clarification
Hello, I would like to clarify something that may or may not have been clarified already:

Country music is a genre from America, which is a derivative of Blues. Anyone who thinks that Country music should refer to anything other than this is incorrect. Why? Because it is an obvious given that music from any country is what one might call 'Country music', but would anyone really like to list all the countries on planet earth for the sake of this absolutely ridiculous disambiguation farce?

Music from a country is usually given a name, like Gamelan, or Afro-Cuban etc. Can't anyone see that it just so happens that the Americans took the Country music name before anyone else did? It is obvious that this is why Country music (the genre) is the only actual reason why a definition for the term exists in the first place.

Can anyone see my overwhelming logic?!

Stop this ridiculous discussion! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 172.143.11.213 (talk • contribs).

Bad References
It seems that some of this article could be deleted out right. Why? Because many of the links used for references go to personal web sites or country fan started web sites or sites that deal in the commerce of country music... roughstock.com? bluegrassbanjo.org? cowboylyrics.com? rcarecordslabel.com? Where did they get their information? So let's start deleting much of the article... ok? UNLESS you want to merge the section that is labeled "Further reading" into the "References" section but then someone would have to read those books and cite page numbers to correspond to the sections in this article. Buster 15:12, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Wow. I see that there have been many edits, and lots of new material added, and it somehow escaped my notice. I think the stuff I've added in months past has had references attached. If stuff isn't sourced... I'll have to start paying more attention. I hope you'll be open to discussion as you go along. Steve Pastor 23:48, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * cowboylyrics.com is, in my opinion a legit site. I have ended up there many times in searching for... lyrics. If they are selling something, I couldn't even tell you what it is. This site helped me figure out that two lines from Charlies Daniels' "The Devil Went Down to Georgia" (which i could never quite make out) are from "Ida Red". How's that for useful? Steve Pastor 20:11, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Performers
The list of performers is unbalancing the article. I think the original intention was to provide some representative performers for each period. However, this has, IMO, been overdone and I would like to prune this section, or even eliminate it, by transferring the lists to a separate page List of Country performers by era. An alternative would be to add the list to the existing List of country music performers. Tiles 06:27, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I was just about to add the same comment. This should not be a list of country performers with a paragraph or two about each one. I'd say, go ahead and prune away. I've considered moving the lists at the end of the article to separate pages. Go for it. Steve Pastor 20:07, 4 August 2007 (UTC)


 * This section seems to have become a place to add ones favorite performer. It needs to be trimmed. What's this "Early 80's Country Stars" and "Late 80's Country Stars" nonsense? Why not have a Middle 80s while were at it? Buster 12:20, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Article needs a title change
This article is crying out for a name change to "American Country Music". It's been pointed out that a few times that many nations have their own form of indigenous roots music and since this article dosen't cover them all, as it's title might suggest to people, a name change seems to be in order. We are talking about "American" Country Music here, let's reflect that. Buster 12:30, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I disagree. I very much doubt that, for instance, the French call their their "country music". I would be willing to bet that they use French words for the name (if they have one). That means that the English phrase "country music", is unique. Someone may wish to educate us on British,etc, use of the term (where they also speak English as a native tongue)(then there is Australia, which is giving us some good music currently), but I believe that this music is somewhat popular overseas and is called in English "country music". If you seek consensus regarding the name of this article, I will once again point out that it should more properly be call country/western music, since it is, after all, hillbilly music from the Eastern US, combined with Western music from... the west. Way back when, they were very distinct. That name is more unique, too. Now of course, we have substantial rock n roll elements. And there is another paragraph or two...how electric guitars changed the music. This is a definate vote against inclusion of the adjective "American" in the name, but a vote for a possibel country/western name change..Steve Pastor 17:33, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
 * A British perspective. I listen to country music, and call it country music, as would most people here.  Magazines and the like refer to it as country music.  The indigenous music of the country is refered to as folk music, and is distinct from country music played by British musicians.  There have been several British bands who play country music, but write lyrics from a British perspective, but with little mainstream success.  More successful are the bands who play covers of American songs at line dances or other events.  At no point is the music refered to as "American Country Music", and the term "Country & Western" is almost never used either.Beestonsteve (talk) 01:30, 9 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Lol I just added a comment in the other section challenging this, up further in the page. Country is an expression, not just a references to actual countries. You know, like "town and country." A word can have more then one meaning. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.192.236.174 (talk) 20:15, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Please consider link to our site under Country music
The site is www.countryhound.com

Thanks for considering us.

CountryHound 02:14, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

old source
"As of 2007, country is the most popular radio format in America, reaching 77.3 million adults--almost 40 percent of the adult population--every week."

Considering the source for this statement is from 97, its hard to see how it can still be relevant or correct 66.167.204.57 06:47, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually, that 2007 info came from a recent country music special on PBS. I'll see if I can come up with the correct info. Steve Pastor (talk) 22:41, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I just updated this paragraph. Steve Pastor (talk) 18:55, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Capitalizing or lowercasing "country western"
Picky copy editor here: Just finished correcting all uses of "Country" and "Pop" in Skeeter Davis entry. A link led me to country and western entry, where I was doing the same thing (lowercasing all uses of "Country" and "Western"). But then I followed a link in C&W about the Southern United States (note Southern is capitalized) and realized a problem: Since the "western" in country and western refers to the Western United States, should it be capitalized? If so, then "Country" would have to be capitalized too in all cases of "Country and Western" because "country and Western" (lowercase and uppercase, respectively) is awkward, confusing and just plain wrong (to this guy's eyes, at least). Any thoughts?Kinkyturnip (talk) 20:46, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Cow-Mo
I understand why you taking it off of the country main page till i or someone else can find a ref. I have put a good stub class history on the its own main page for now and i will try my best to update it to a more detailed and ref-ed history as soon as i can —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ateaccount (talk • contribs) 03:23, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Can you tell me why Cow-mo cant have its own page but punk rock and emo can have like 500 dif genres that dont have any ref's? Ateaccount —Preceding comment was added at 03:29, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

I added this to the Cow-Mo page earler....

Cow-Mo is a subgenre of country music that is a mix of pop country and emo. This genre of of country music got it first start in early 2004 among county singers that wanted be more in vain of new age light rock and emo then the county music of past. The musical beginnings (both in music and fashion) of Cow-Mo had a somewhat slow start but really begin to take off in great part to the mainstream reach of county and its divestment in the wake of American idol in the mid-00's.

see Rascal Flatts and Keith Urban

..... How did that not make it at least stub class... (Ateaccount (talk) 03:36, 31 January 2008 (UTC))

The quality of articles is highly dependent on the editors of the article. Wikipedia's standards can be either cited as justification for deletion of material, or, not. Just to be clear, if something isn't adequately referenced, it can be deleted. Country music has been around for over a hundred years, and it would be impractical to list every performer or every "style" that someone makes up. Those things have articles of their own.Steve Pastor (talk) 18:01, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

downloading
"While album sales of most musical genres have declined, country music experienced one of its best years in 2006, when, during the first six months of the year, U.S. sales of country albums increased by 17.7 percent to 36 million. Moreover, country music listening nationwide has remained steady for almost a decade, reaching 77.3 million adults every week according to the radio-ratings agency Arbitron Inc"

While it is cited, it portrays a false image that country music is becoming more popular then all the other genres of music. I mean seriously, "most musical genres" it sounds like album sales in general are decling regardless of genre. Want to know why? Lol because most people who listen to country would not even begin to comprehend downloading music or torrenting. All the kids that listen to their music today download their music for free, whereas the ol' farm boys and old people who still listen to country would take 15 minutes to type this paragraph, looking for the keys on the keyboard. Can we just add that people who listen to country music usually can not fathom how to start a computer? lol —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.192.236.174 (talk) 20:18, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Television and radio shows of note
This list should have its own page as has been done for: List of country music performers and List of country performers by era. Any volunteers? I suggest List of country television and radio shows Tiles (talk) 08:09, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Semi-protect
I think this article should be semi-protected because of IPs replacing parts with "country music sucks". -- Metal of  Head  22:23, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Origins of country music
The article says it came from hillbilly, but nowhere nobody is mentioning term FOLK MUSIC, instrumental, nothing electric, that was original country, reply on my talk page how shall we add that word together with hillbilly, but folk was there long before hillbilly! Mirandamir (talk) 00:43, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

South Africa
There should be a line or two somewhere noting that it is a popular genre amongst Afrikaans people in South Africa and that there are a number of local singers... like Clive Bruce and Billy Forrest. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.215.9.20 (talk) 08:21, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with File:Clyde J Foley.jpg
The image File:Clyde J Foley.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check


 * That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
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This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Media copyright questions. --00:39, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Rational was added to these images and they were restored.RadioBroadcast (talk) 02:27, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Evidence?
where the evidence for country being big in poland? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.99.136.30 (talk) 20:02, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Early history: Texas paragraph removed
I removed the second paragraph from the Early History section based on copyright issues; namely, the paragraph was lifted word for word from a 5th grade music curriculum developed by a national university-sponsored arts program. What drew my attention to the paragraph, however, was that the information seemed to take a Texas-centric view of the development of country music in the U.S. yet made no mention of country music specifically. While the material from the source is still usable (if re-written extensively), much of what was said could apply to any region of the U.S., for example, the merging of European cultures and the development of polka dance halls. Therefore, I would suggest that this not be used as a reference but instead that other sources be sought that address this formative period. Allreet (talk) 21:02, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm sure you know that "western", or "cowboy" music is quite different than Appalachian "coal miners daughter", Carter Family kind of music. I'm sure you also know that the distribution of immigrant groups during the various "waves" of immigration in the US is far from homogeneous. As for this "western" part being Texas centric, well, if say, Colorado, or Utah, had a big influence on country music, no one has documented it. To this day, people ask "Is polka country?" And the answer is that, yeah it is, and this is why (All those Germans and Czechs and Mexicans, BUT in the absence of other groups, strengthing their influence.) If you want to broaden the geographic scope of where this happened (Oklahoma, too), it would no longer be supported by the (new) reference. Yes, there are other pockets of polka. But this rhythm and dance became part of this genre of music in the last century. Later on, Nashville, and at one time Bakersfield, became important in the recording industry conflation of "country and western". But this section is about Early History. OK. I'm loing my focus here.Steve Pastor (talk) 17:11, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Quality of article and conspicuously absent sections
I've made a number of revisions which someone keeps deleting, citing "personal opinion". Most of the "personal opinion" remarks are simply statements of fact, based on chart success and other factors. In some cases, I've restored some comments, citing references from such sources as All Music Guide (which acknowledges, for instance, Gram Parsons' influence on the country-rock genre). Specifically, mention should be made under Country Rock of Parsons and his influence on Emmylou Harris (and thus. Also, under Country-Pop in the '70s section, mention needs to be made of Kenny Rogers and Dolly Parton's concerted efforts to aim their music in a mainstream direction, since they more or less led the country-pop crossover movement during the '70s and into the '80s.  Simply mentioning a number of their respective hits and citing chart positions does not tell the whole story.

Also, there are a number of sections I added, which were later deleted, most notably the Neotraditionalist movement (led by such artists as George Straight and Randy Travis) which eclipsed the country-pop sound during the latter half of the '80s. Likewise, very little is said about the early- to mid- '90s state of country music, other than "line dancing" and Garth Brooks. What about Reba McEntire, the most successful female star, in terms of both record sales and chart success, since Dolly Parton? The fact that she is not referenced anywhere in the article seems a huge oversight. If my comments aren't to someone's liking, they should try rewriting, rather than simply deleting.--Markt3 (talk) 19:11, 22 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Mark, if you are serious about editing this article, you should make sure you don't put stuff like this in it Michael fox music. In fact, since you've repeatedly tried to get this in the article, and it leads to a pretty obvious conclusion. Steve Pastor (talk) 20:15, 22 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I didn't put that in (at least not intentionally). In reviewing, it looks like that was initially added by 207.172.206.84 on 7/21/09.  I may have somehow inadvertently added that back in, as I was restoring my own edits, but it was not intentional.   --Markt3 (talk) 21:10, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Cool. Now, regarding the material that was deleted... It may have simple been because of the junk that got in. Or, it may have been beause, in my opinion, the article looses focus around the 60s/70s, spinning off into numerous subgenres and people are simply adding their own favorite people. I barely look at the more recent decades because I don't have time to do all the research that would make those sections "good". Note that I haven't made any edits there, nor have I reversed any of your edits. All Music isn't IMO a good source. I don't go there often, but the tone is too "Hype ie". Steve Pastor (talk) 22:55, 23 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I more or less agree, as far as users seemingly listing their personal favourites....And a lot of these more obscure performers are listed, while higher profile acts remain unmentioned...I think there are certain performers who personofied a given decade or sub-genre....Dolly Parton and Kenny Rogers -- along with Willie Nelson -- were probably the highest profile country acts of the 1970s, which is why I inserted a paragraph about their work during this period. Similarly Emmylou Harris has had a thirty-odd year career, and she, along with Parsons, is cited as a defining influence in the country-rock field by critics and her peers alike, and yet she was not mentioned. And the Neotraditionalist movement of the mid- to late-1980s (which essentially snuffed out the country-pop crossover thing)  is not mentioned at all, despite huge chart success and record sales by people like Randy Travis, the Judds and George Straight during this period.  I'm not particularly a fan of a number of these artists, but they were among the highest profile acts of their time period, and, IMO, should thus be mentioned in this context.  I will try to dig up some data and draft something, and hopefully others can expand, amend and edit as they see fit.   --Markt3 (talk) 00:37, 25 July 2009 (UTC)(talk) 16:45, 24 July 2009 (UTC)


 * If you have the energy, start a discussion here about one decade. Maybe look at the Billboard country charts to see who was indeed most notable with the highest number of top 5 hits, etc. Everyone can't be equally important, especially with an article that covers such a great ime period. Then post that stuff here with references. They will be more likely to be accepted. And, again, please be careful with your edits, even if they are "simple" reverts. It can be a lot of work, but it can be very rewarding, too. Steve Pastor (talk) 22:55, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Cajun influence?
There seems to be a conspicuous absence of any mention of the Cajun influence on Country - Western Music. Shoreranger (talk) 16:30, 4 December 2009 (UTC)