Talk:Country music/Archive 3

Blues - How Early?
I would actually like to believe that white people did blues before the first recordings of it were made. It only makes sense if the were on the "first" country records. But it requires a reference, and the way it was put in the intro is not totally convincing. Would someone, could someone, supply a direct quote from the book listed as a source to make a better case for this? Steve Pastor (talk) 16:11, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

New Section
There ought to be a section on Queens of Country, the classic female singers, like Reba McEntire, Dolly Parton and especially Patsy Cline. Teal --24.12.166.210 (talk) 22:21, 4 January 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.12.166.210 (talk) 22:18, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Outlaw Country and an "alienated subculture"
The Outlaw Country section of the article starts with this: "Derived from the traditional and honky tonk sounds of the late 1950s and 1960s, including Ray Price (whose band, the "Cherokee Cowboys", included Willie Nelson and Roger Miller) and mixed with the anger of an alienated subculture". Am I missing something, or is the identity of that "alienated subculture" never, uh, identified? -- MQ Duck (talk) 06:20, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Edit away. I think you know the wikipedia standards. I think I had pretty much everything up through the 50s referenced. Looks like that was more than 500 edits ago! Still after that things get pretty unreferenced (unless you want to count a "main article".Steve Pastor (talk) 23:47, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

Lead sentence
If we want all of those other forms listed, someone needs to find a real reference, or do away with the reference itself. Obviously southern music isn't the only form that influenced things or is in the current mix. How do we do this properly? Steve Pastor (talk) 01:13, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Hello recent editors!!! Please use this talk page before making major changes. Steve Pastor (talk) 19:36, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Commonalities
Someone remind that there is a good quote about how whites and blacks often played music together and had similar styles, used black players at dances, etc. For instance there were many black String bands, and I'd really like to see a word or two about the Bronze Buckaroo who was banished from the article long ago. Anyone else is welcome to pursue that course if you have good stuff with references. Steve Pastor (talk) 01:03, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

New Page "List of Country and Folk Songs of the USA"
Could you create a new page called "List of Country and Folk Songs of the USA" which includes who created the tune of the song and who created the words of the song? Include all the common songs such as "Sally Gooden", "Rye Whiskey", "Greenback Dollar" and also create a page for each of these songs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.50.171.227 (talk) 15:04, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

adding The Country Startpage to external links
I believe that our site The Country Startpage would really be of some use for everyone who likes country music: www.countrystartpage.com We are online for several years now and we try to bring the country music community a directory of all the country music sites on the internet. Last year we had 455.669 page views, 77% referred by the major search engines. I hope you will find our site important enough to be added to the external links. Cspwolf (talk) 18:28, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Adding the Countrymusic.lv - Main resource for country music fans in Latvia to external links.
Hello,

I'm one of the representatives for Countrymusic.lv - a wide Country Music resource in Latvia. Our portal is made to popularize american culture in our country. We are up more than five years, and we have very much content about country music in our native language. I've decided to add our resource to external links of your page, so more people could find and be together with us, and i really hope, that you will find our resource useful.

Edgarsan (talk) 15:53, 10 July 2011 (UTC)


 * To avoid self promotion Wikipedia has guidelines on such links. Please see WP:SELFPROMOTE.-- SabreBD  (talk)  16:21, 10 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Dear Sabrebd, thank you for replying me. I understand your thoughts and recently i read these guidelines. Maybe we have different views on what we call a promotion, but personally i think, that every url, that's posted here on Wikipedia and points outside of it, is something like a promotion / advert, and we can't call it different, because it just is. The question is only about if it is useful or not for other readers of this article, and i think it is. Anyway, i respect your choice and opinion and if you consider, that it's not suitable for this article or it's not useful, then i will perceive it as a criticism, and we will continue to work, to improve our resource. Best regards, --''' Edgarsan  (talk ) 21:25, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I am afraid that if you are, as you say a representative for the site then you have a conflict of insterest, so you cannot post the link. Sorry about that.-- SabreBD  (talk)  22:10, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

Great external link
Hi, I came accross this website: www.country.dj they have a selection (it seems to be the largest on the internet)of free country music radio stations. I saw in your external links a link to one single country music radio station but at this website www.country.dj you will find all country music radio stations on the internet. I think a great resource for your readers, it is one of my favourites anyway. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.106.52.116 (talk) 08:18, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Mainstream popularity
How is it possible that Country music is highly popular in Brazil but very little in Latin America, when Brazil alone is one third of it? This classification in general does not seem to be sourced and I proposed that it be completely eliminated Frohfroh (talk) 21:06, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

Adding The Country Startpage to external links
Last year The Country Startpage http://www.countrystartpage.com had been added under External Links after discussing it on the Talk page. I see it has been removed now (I'm not a wiki expert so I have no idea how to figure out when and why it had been deleted) Because The Country Startpage is the largest country music directory on the internet and I would like to add it again. Please let me know if there are any objections. Cspwolf (talk) 12:32, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

Conway Twitty's importance in Country Music
Being that (until George Strait broke his record in 2006) Conway Twitty had the most number-one-hits on the country charts and had crossover success as well, does it not seem reasonable that he should at least be mentioned in the history of country music? Just a thought. 76.170.193.42 (talk) 18:59, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

I agree. Twitty was also inducted into the Country Music Hall of Fame in 1999 with notable contributions. His presence in the history of country music is prominent. Glitteringrose68 (talk) 05:35, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

Untitled
OH DEAR ITS THAT BRITISH PROBLEM AGAIN! First I admit to knowing nothing about country music Second ..I admit that for most people country music starts in the 1920s But there must be some people who are interested in its even earlier origins.. What does wiki say? Well its the Irish and other immigrants who brought over some of their folk music..Well although there were immigrants from Ireland pre revolution they would have kept quiet about it ..real Irish immigration took place in the 1840s and then relative to the size of the US was not enormously high So from the 1620s right through to 1776 and on well until the 1880s and probably even later the dominant group in the USA were the British ..originated. However ,there is not one word of them or their songs and music ..indeed right through to the early 1900s it was British entertainment music hall stars that dominated American entertainment ..So where is this British contribution? From 1620 to 1776..150 years or 1620 to 1900..280 years there must have been some contribution.. but not a word! Of course everyone knows that the music of the Star Spangled Banner..Americas national anthem is simply an old and popular London drinking song but there surely must have been many other British influences in early American music...Cant we read about them?80.98.113.13 (talk) 14:43, 4 May 2013 (UTC)


 * The above should be at bottom of this Talk page, not the top. If not moved in three days I will delete it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.32.41.130 (talk) 13:00, 1 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Done. Is there some reason you couldn't do it yourself, Your Majesty? By the way, removing it would have been vandalism. Not a good thing to threaten on Wikipedia. —Largo Plazo (talk) 13:13, 1 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, that was quick. Thank you Largo. Apologies if my words came across as a threat. I don't know how to move it. I've been deleted for a similar offense. If that was really vandalism, I don't think anyone cared. I must confess that if it weren't for the sarcasm in caps and the exaggerated whining tone, I wouldn't have taken a blind bit of notice where those remarks were entered. That sort of thing is rife in WP. Right Your Highness? My name is Al Cook and I live in the US. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.32.41.130 (talk) 13:40, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Review of the article
19 November 2013 (UTC) I'd love to see a topic this major get to GA, but this seems to be a driveby nomination of an article that still has a ways to go to meet the criteria. The full criteria are at WP:GA?, but a few issues I see at a glance:


 * The lead doesn't appear to summarize all parts of the article per WP:LEAD, and contains important information not in the article (the rush hour stat).
 * Whole sections appear to lack inline citations, including some stats like "Webb Pierce was the top-charting country artist of the 1950s, with 13 of his singles spending 113 weeks at number one." and mildly interpretative material like "backlash as well as traditional artists such as Ray Price, Marty Robbins, and Johnny Horton began to shift the industry away from the rock n' roll influences of the mid-1950s" or "There is also a thriving country community in the province of Quebec."

Thanks to everybody who's worked on this one to get to this point--I hope this can serve as a prod to bring this the rest of the way to GA, where it would be a sure winner of a Half Million Award at least! -- Khazar2 (talk) 16:54, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

I wanted to post this here so other editors could see it without going elsewhere. I plan on editing in line with that review. If you have added unreferenced material, please find a reference and add it to the artilce. Steve Pastor (talk) 16:55, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

Please note the following: All material in Wikipedia mainspace, including everything in articles, lists and captions, must be verifiable. All quotations, and any material whose verifiability has been challenged or is likely to be challenged, must include an inline citation that directly supports the material. Any material that needs a source but does not have one may be removed. Please remove unsourced contentious material about living people immediately. []Steve Pastor (talk) 21:10, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Taylor Swift
I added a photo of Taylor Swift to the "Sixth Generation" section as she is easily one of the most prominent "crossover" artists in this current generation of country music. Share your thoughts here. teratogen (talk) 18:41, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

Agree. She is easily the most successful Country Artist of this decade. TBWarrior720 (talk) 13:36, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

No harm intended
Was aiming to show someone the awesome power of your site - and just how powerful a content curation process is in addition to technology. Will be mindful in the future. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Deskkeybadge (talk • contribs) 14:46, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

Sixth Generation - Miranda Lambert
Can we add Miranda Lambert to the sixth generation of country music? She has arguably had a much more successful career in the past decade than some of the other names that are currently listed in the section. Earlier this month she set a new record by winning the ACM Female Vocalist of the Year 5 years in a row overtaking Carrie Underwood's previous record. Just a thought! Glitteringrose68 (talk) 16:49, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

Looks like you have at least one reference for it. I'd say yes. Please be sure to have them in the text. Steve Pastor (talk) 20:12, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Third generation (1950s–1960s)
My personal memory of the 1950s is that Western and Country were very distinct genres. To reduce it to absurd simplicity, Country music had banjo, Western music had slide guitar &/or a jumbo western lead guitar (see Les Paul & Mary Ford). IMHO, the article should better reflect the dichotomy that existed at that time. D A Patriarche, BSc (talk) (talk) 07:04, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Criticism Section Deleted
Here is what I deleted: "Country music has been subjected to criticism on the ground that each song has the same melody and the same theme. (specifically the unofficial "Bro-country" songs).[98] In 2013 rock singer Tom Petty called country music "bad rock with a fiddle".[99]" The first link was to a gawker op-ed- piece (seems like an Onion style satire) and the second is a Tom Petty interview. I wouldn't really say these are criticism's of "country music" as pertaining to this article since this article is covering the genre over a 100 year period. If there is a wiki page for so-called "bro-country" than maybe it would be appropriate there (but I doubt it). --Brian Earl Haines (talk) 06:30, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Support the removal. Just because someone notable had an opinion doesn't mean it is relevant. And adding some neologism doesn't make it relevant. Even if this had been a serious article, I probably wouldn't support it because it's just a limited opinion that didn't get significant coverage. Were this an opinion that got widespread notice, it might be worth discussing. Niteshift36 (talk) 15:34, 18 November 2014 (UTC)


 * I'm ok with it the removal, even though I agree with the opinion expressed. Everyone has an opinion, ya know? Steve Pastor (talk) 21:18, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

Alt country
Keeping with the article's style, I added a subheader to "Sixth Generation" (as per those in "Fourth Generation"). The subheader reads "Alt country." I added a brief paragraph about this genre to the article as artists like Uncle Tupelo, Wilco, and Ryan Adams had not been mentioned, and do play an important part in bridging the country genre with punk and indie rock. To many young people their sound is country. Beautiful article! Extremely informative! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.113.113.161 (talk) 13:29, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

Shouldn't alt country be under the Fourth generation? After all, artists like Jason and the Scorchers were around in the '80s, with little mainstream success to be sure, but they were there. And actually the roots of the music date back to the days of Kenny Rogers and the First Edition and Linda Ronstadt. I think it should be in the fourth generation, if not, I think there should at least be an explanation as to why it isn't. Like something to the effect of: "Although alt country was around since the '80s it didn't become popular until the 2000s." Just a thought.

Noah Tall (talk) 18:28, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

The whole "Generation" business started here - "Revision as of 20:41, 13 August 2012 (edit) (undo) 204.116.202.13 (talk). There was no discussion of the use of those headings among previous editors of the article. I would be fine if we ditched those "generation" headings altogether since they are a pretty artificial construct. Steve Pastor (talk) 21:07, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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I have just added archive links to 17 one external links on Country music. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
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Bristol, Tennessee
I've removed the specific mention of Bristol, Tennessee, from the opening sentence of the article. So far as I can see, it is not explained in the article text, and it seems highly dubious to me that the origins of such a broad genre can be pinned down so specifically. Happy to discuss here, so as to expand my knowledge. Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:46, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

Picture
Jazz and blues have a picture in the infobox, why doesn't country have one? --Anonymous — Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.2.142.50 (talk) 22:38, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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I have just added archive links to 3 one external links on Country music. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
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Bluegrass
In the introduction "Generations of country music", bluegrass is placed under the "third generation" label. Later in the article, bluegrass has advanced to second generation. What is correct?

Pål Jensen (talk) 19:07, 9 August 2016 (UTC) See this comment from last year. The whole "Generation" business started here - "Revision as of 20:41, 13 August 2012 (edit) (undo) 204.116.202.13 (talk). There was no discussion of the use of those headings among previous editors of the article. I would be fine if we ditched those "generation" headings altogether since they are a pretty artificial construct. Steve Pastor (talk) 21:07, 11 January 2015 (UTC) Do you support removing the "Generation" headings? Anyone? Steve Pastor (talk)

External links modified
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Copyright problem removed
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George Strait
Should a picture of him be in this article? He’s one of the best selling artists of this genre, and has more Billboard #1’s hits than any other musician in the world (60 to be exact). Averagetennesseejoe (talk) 04:31, 3 December 2017 (UTC)

Problematic, non-cited declaration
Paragraph four of this article has some real problems, Quote:

"The term country music is used today to describe many styles and subgenres. The origins of country music are the folk music of working class white Americans, who blended popular songs, Irish and Celtic fiddle tunes, traditional English ballads, cowboy songs, and various musical traditions from European immigrants."

That second sentence ignores the influence of African and Native American contributors to country music, and falsely asserts that its origins are wholly "working class" - when the actual history appears to be that wealthy, landed individuals had a role in its development by sponsoring dances and providing quality musical instruments. Both slaves and free laborers were taught the traditional music and learned the instruments. Slaves took the "old world" tunes home and played them informally, adding African instrumentation as well, for instance the banjo. Slaves and poor free people played these tunes and tunes of their own devices on their own instruments, some of which were homemade instruments. The music truly developed among very poor, down and out groups of people on plantations and in the Appalachian mountains, as well as the "working class" in the coal mines and other industries.

I think the fourth paragraph of this article, quoted above, is inaccurate and misleading. Although the contributions of disenfranchised groups has been largely ignored in popular histories, there can be no doubt that the contributions were enormous, particular the African contributions, as even an African instrument (the banjo) has survived and thrived in country music. Native American influences are more difficult to trace, but at any rate, that paragraph as it stands now should be removed, or altered and citations provided.

--MarksCarts (talk) 14:52, 7 October 2018 (UTC) MarksCarts

Recommended Sub-Section Changes - Topic too big for one page
This page may need review because it is causing confusion. It might work better if the subsections were by decades. The decade of 1920-1930 was different than 1930-1940 years. Each decade would not exist without the previous decade. Every decade did expand, evolve, and spawn country music into new styles. By considering it in “generations” it leads the readers to think the music has evolved from the original format. It has not. A listener may think they are listening to the 1930’s Grand Ole Opry when listening to some of Jon Pardi or Miranda Lambert’s newest songs. Chris Stapleton's music is the example of country that is true country for any decades. But should that be discussed on the topic page of "Country Music" topic page? Probably not, instead link it out to his page.

George Strait, Willie Nelson, Dolly Parton are legends but except a few songs their music is still the same from early in their careers. It is not unusual for a young fan to hear a new song by an artist and then realize they have years of previous songs to enjoy. At the same time singers like Reba McEntire have adapted her music to appeal to a younger base allowing her to establish several decades of songs that appeal to all ages.

Country music is also a difference in its delivery. Whereas other genres see artist  “go on tour” when they drop a new album, country music fans have the luxury of their favorites going on tour, every year. They tend to follow the rodeo circuit and state/region fairground patterns. Luke Bryan hit the scene in 2007 and has released nine albums. He’s been touring since 2008. Stopping only long enough to record and see his family. George Strait’s tour schedule was even more impressive considering he had been touring since 1981. His music changed/evolved over that time but it is still the same.

What is considered country music has changed because the age of the listener has changed. Elvis Presley may have been the King of Rock-n-Roll but you won’t hear his music on the rock or even pop stations unless it is a rare throwback nostalgia day. His music is a regular on country stations and playlists. The era of Loretta Lynn and Patsy Cline ruled the airways and set a generational change and led up to the burning of bras in the late 1960’s, still relevant today, but still sounds like the 1930's.

The listener will find current country music is all over the place. Some of the biggest stars right now are from the South - Tennessee. Georgia, and Florida. You listen to their music but you may easily mistake them for a band from the early years of Molly Hatchet or Allman Brothers. That is because their parents (my age group) raised them listening to those groups. Their music is solid 1970’s Southern Rock. This is also another way country music is different. Brantley Gilbert is a top seller but only tours regionally. His music has not made it into other areas yet.

For the record, true country music fans would find a page on “country music” with a subsection devoted to an individual artist disrespectful. Just because they have had a number ones and big sales does not mean they are considered true Country. Let their stats and accomplishments shine on their individual pages. Country music is subjective but to the country music fans it means staying true to the music. Yes, we are in the age of "cross-overs" but can they sustain the art of country music.

Giving individual contributor’s like Conway Twitty or Taylor Swift could distract the reader from the first thought of “What is Country Music?” Yes, they had the number one songs for a certain amount of time but they do not qualify as fair because we did not have digital distribution through the decades. Unless we are going to embed a equation formula that allows for value data to be updated based on distribution, currency, and global impact, not a fair comparison. This includes Garth Brooks. Legendary, but his impact is considered negative by some because of how it changed country music from the Grand Ole Opry format to stadium status.

I found some information on this page was inaccurate. The decline of country music in the 1960s? That is the years of Conway Twitty, Loretta Lynn, and Porter Wagoner. There was an seismic shift in everything in the 1960's. It would be unfair to describe it as a decline.

Buy focusing on the decades and the different styles of country music (without elaboration) highlighting those specific years we would allow the reader to gain knowledge without overwhelming them. By using a Learn More feature, We can show the artists who were prominent during each decade, then have links to those individual pages. Using the same feature we can have links to other different types of country. Trying to breakdown styles like Bakersfield Country to a subsection just leads to confusion. Allow the reader to follow that link on as a choice not as a static amount of information they must read through to try and understand the topic.

This would simplify the page but allow the page to be a guide through country music with examples for them to explorer versus a crash course on country music which is overwhelming. Zarilla (talk) 05:36, 10 November 2018 (UTC)Zarilla

problems at a glance
First off, how is it that country music has been granted "generations" in its evolution? In Rock music specific reference is made only to "second generations" of subgenres heavy metal and punk, and then only in a passing manner, and there is no such pigeonholing for Jazz or Blues. The "generations" are in no way obvious or natural or intuitive: I sincerely doubt that the country musicians of the early 1930s started thinking of themselves as "the second generation." Given the centrality of this conceit to the article, I challenge its maintenance and demand that a very specific source for the origin of those divisions be presented — and NOT merely citing someone else (certainly NOT multiple "creators"!!) who might have mentioned something somewhat similar in a book or article — else the divisions themselves are blatant original research and all mention of "generations" ought be scrubbed. As mentioned above, decade-by-decade structure makes somewhat more sense, though only somewhat.

(Effort ought to have been made to make this somehow conform with the amazingly stupid List of country performers by era — stupid because someone like Merle Haggard can appear in FIVE "eras," redundancy that gratuitously inflates that trivia pile.)

Second, aside from passing reference to Regional Mexican, there is virtually no mention of country music in any language other than English. At the very least, Jim Reeves certainly had a huge following in South Africa and recorded a couple of albums in Afrikaans. Given the degree of music fanaticism in Japan for various genres, there certainly must be Japanese country lyrics; they definitely have produced credible bluegrass instrumentals for decades.

Third, whole chunks are pretty much unsupported personal essay, and vulnerable to outright deletion. Start with Country music and Country music.

That brings me to a fourth point: how is it that a clearly pop or rock or blues tune (nowadays even hip-hop) becomes "country" simply by being sung with a nasally twang? Jim Reeves (among others) went quickly from rock-&-roll/rockabilly to pop, yet everyone would agree that his entire catalogue is "country." Marty Robbins was by turns in rock-&-roll, pop, "Polynesian," and ballads about men shooting each other. Basically, a city-raised kid who's never seen a horse up close can establish a career by glorifying various "blue collar" and "rural" stereotypes for the amusement of comfortably wealthy managers whose idea of "my country roots" consists entirely of driving the Lincoln Navigator to the Grand Canyon for three days a year.

Fifth, the article is entirely too long. At 130K, it's too bloated to read through and too bulky to navigate easily with mobiles. At a guesstimate it could be improved by paring it back to ~85K. Anyone who feels driven to preserve the content should figure out how to split it.

And in the process, big gray paragraph swathes ought to be trimmed down and broken up, and some effort made to reduce overreliance on one-paragraph sections (for that matter, two-paragraph too).

Finally, as noted in a previous post above, there's an underlying (propagandistic) thread running through this article that country music is somehow representative of "the little guy," the working man. This is romantic claptrap. For instance, the genre demonstrates a recurring theme of wholesale theft from the music of African-Americans — slaves entertaining their owners, minstrel shows, "blues modes," rapping — yet excluding black composers, musicians, and performers: aside from Charley Pride and Darius Rucker, name a non-white country artist. Clearly, there's basis to argue that country's "little guy" MUST be white (at least mostly, certainly not Italian!) and Christian (at least nominally). Country is proudly reactionary, and leans heavily upon Reaganesque "good ol' days" myths such as discussed in The Way Things Never Were (1999). For the purposes of a Wikipedia article, any furtherance of the mythos MUST be clearly attributed to specific sources, and then as their mere opinion unless backed by credible research.

For starters. Weeb Dingle (talk) 18:31, 14 April 2019 (UTC)

Nomination of Portal:Country music for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether Portal:Country music is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The page will be discussed at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Country music until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the page during the discussion, including to improve the page to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the deletion notice from the top of the page. North America1000 17:59, 17 May 2019 (UTC)