Talk:County Down

Comments
since, AFAIK, counties in N. America all have names with the format "X County", and not "County X" as in Ireland. -- 194.73.118.77 10:53, 13 May 2004 (UTC)

Why the county crest in irish? EIRE across it? County Down is in Northern Ireland and the UK. Any crest should be in English. 86.131.202.57 23:03, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Well I'm guessing that this is some kind of historical crest, but if so, it should be clarified as such. --feline1 09:45, 31 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Its obviously a GAA crest. Djegan 18:49, 31 October 2005 (UTC)


 * It is not "obviously" a football club crest, it says "country crest" and is given a prominent place at the top of the article, the same way a national flag is for a country entry, or a coat of arms foDjegan 22:15, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Image:Gaelic Athletic Association.png Image:Downnewcrest.jpg


 * Conspiracy no, only a unionists would think that, wrong crest yes, i organized pratically all of the GGA pagesm and it is the gaa crest used by the County GAA board, should it be used on this page, no not for that it a nationalist unionist issue, is it the wrong crest yes, if anything should be uaed it should be a tradation crest, my objections to using most of the gaa crest in the any county infobox is that many are geared to the GAA, with symbols that represent the GAA and the sports, or something. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 22:23, 31 October 2005 (UTC)


 * I suggest this option, . It must be remembered that as Northern Ireland is no longer county based their is no such thing as "official crests" in any case. Their all potentially pov. Djegan 22:32, 31 October 2005 (UTC)


 * I dunno what you guys are going on about 'conspiracy theories' (and I sincerely hope you weren't implying I am a unionist!!) - the problem with the crest is above all that it is from some feckin football team, yet is stuck atop the article giving the impression that its an official coat of arms. (And yes, Djegan, if you put the two images beside each other, I can see the "obvious" similarity - but since I neither know nor care anything about football, why would I have known what a GAA logo looked like? Wikipedia articles are not supposed to only be intelligable to people who like football!

You appear to have found the correct heraldic coat-of-arms for Down, so that should certainly be the one used in the article. I wouldn't worry about the fact that counties in NornIrond are no longer used for local government administration - they are still quite ubiquitously recognised by everyone who lives in the country (much more so that the local government districts - I'd be amazed if you could find me someone who could rhyme off the names of all of those!), and if we have an article about a historical county, we can surely show its historical coat of arms....--feline1 23:16, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Would this crest be a more suitable one? Image:Down_Crest.gif (Thebdogg 22:18, 1 November 2005 (UTC))


 * I think Djegan already found the proper one, with his external links above. That one you've found is close, but it doesn't have a fish! LOL. I'm sure the people of Ardglass and Dongdiggledee would want to see their fish on there.--feline1 23:43, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Imperial vs. Metric
It is just a little peculiar and trolling to change metric to imperial as this has been the consensus since just about anyone can remember in these articles. Additionally all other infoboxes for Northern Ireland counties use metric only. Hopefully not another revert war. Djegan 17:17, 29 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Even English counties use metric e.g. Berkshire, Nottinghamshire. Djegan 17:20, 29 September 2006 (UTC)


 * What the English counties you note have in them currently is fair enough. I have been patiently changing the order of importance, or including the imperial distances in articles I've noticed. Why? Because in the United Kingdom, distances are measured in miles - not in kilometres. Being a person from the UK, kilometres means very little to me. Other measurements in feet and/or metres don't matter because they are used interchangeably in the UK. --Mal 00:47, 30 September 2006 (UTC)


 * If you want to include imperial fair enough - but please bear in mind that a consensus would be worth getting first before a massive change in ordering or removal of metric. Incidentially if you are including imperial then simply converting the metric value using standard conversions is somewhat improper; ideally an external source would be best. Additionally if you want to show your good faith it may be worth bearing in mind that simply changing the imperial/metric in one article (viz this one) is not sufficent, all effected articles should be changed, i.e. Northern Ireland. This would be a big project and a consensus would be ideal; perhaps as far as manual of style. 15:59, 30 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Of course I want to note the distances in imperial - the country's distances are measured in miles, as I've already stated. If metric distance measurements are to be included, then that's fair enough. What could possibly be "bad faith" about putting the country's own measurements in any article? This is done for the USA (for example), and as that is a precedent, I don't believe consensus is neeeded.


 * Nor have I merely "changed" the imperial/metric references in one article - as I explained above, I had been "patiently changing" these in other articles.


 * I agree re Manual of Style that this should be included for all UK-related articles. The UK is a funny place whereby other measurements for shorter distances, or for heights etc may well be mentioned equally as much in metric as they are in imperial. Distances between towns, villages etc should be first and foremost measured in miles though, as that is the system used throughout. Is there an MoS specific to the UK? --Mal 23:09, 7 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Please seek agreement first. Their is a WP:IMOS and I will take it their if your going to play a revert war on it. Djegan 23:12, 8 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Before you start a revert war Mal/Setenta747 please ask yourself why metric figures are predominantly used in other UK articles (eg Belfast (Northern Ireland), Cardiff (Wales), London (England), even Scotland) firstly and why Northern Ireland articles should be different??? Its not the time to turn Northern Ireland into a metric second place against the rest of the UK, unless you have an agenda, going against the tide is not a good idea. Be sensible and consistant with like articles. Djegan 23:22, 8 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Futhermore I think if your introducing imperial and changing the order to imperial first that is perhaps the most spectacular waste of time you can get involved in. Northern Ireland as imperial units heaven? Have a look thru' some UK articles. Sigh. Djegan 23:33, 8 October 2006 (UTC)


 * The MOS suggests putting the measurement used in the source of the figure first, and the conversion second. This article does not cite its sources, so that's not terribly helpful here. The measurements have to have come from somewhere though. If this is going to come under the auspices of WP:IMOS, I would imagine that metric is the way to go. Martin 00:30, 9 October 2006 (UTC)


 * While its true that road sign distanes use miles, I have rarely came across imperial measurement elsewhere. Growing up in school, etc we always used metric measurements and any imperial measurements I ever came acorss I would convert them into metric in my head and not the other way about. For example if someone told me to walk x yards, I would convert this into metres in my head and then walk y metres. Also when I see a sign saying somewhere is X miles away, I convert this into kilometres and think it is Y kilometres away. Not becasue that is what they use in the south, but because we were always taugh metric in school and I can only assume this is the same everywhere, and I can only assume that its only a matter of time before distances and speed limits change to metric easurements in the north. Therefore I believe metric should be given presedence. Derry Boi 18:44, 20 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Djegan: "Before you start a revert war Mal/Setenta747" I have not started anything other than to identify the fact that in the UK distances between locations such as towns are measured in miles.


 * "please ask yourself why metric figures are predominantly used in other UK articles (eg Belfast (Northern Ireland), Cardiff (Wales), London (England), even Scotland) firstly and why Northern Ireland articles should be different???" With regard to distances between locations, I suspect you are in error. The metric system is quite widely used throughout the UK - indeed, there was an increase in its usage following certain legislation the government made with regard to our status within the EU. However, the imperial system continues to be used widely also, and certainly almost exclusively with regard to mileage markers, everyday speech etc.


 * "Its not the time to turn Northern Ireland into a metric second place against the rest of the UK, unless you have an agenda, going against the tide is not a good idea. Be sensible and consistant with like articles." That is precisely what I am attempting: consistency. The UK uses miles to measure distances between locations. The articles should reflect that. The USA uses miles to measure distances between locations. I imagine most of the articles already reflect this. Northern Ireland will not be treated any differently because it is my intention to ensure the articles are consistent throughout Wikipedia.


 * "Futhermore I think if your introducing imperial and changing the order to imperial first that is perhaps the most spectacular waste of time you can get involved in." Likewise, I could say the same about your protestations, with the added facet that you are being inconsistent if you continue to attempt to make a mountain out of a molehill.


 * Martin: "The MOS suggests putting the measurement used in the source of the figure first, and the conversion second. This article does not cite its sources, so that's not terribly helpful here. The measurements have to have come from somewhere though. If this is going to come under the auspices of WP:IMOS, I would imagine that metric is the way to go." I would imagine that imperial is the way to go when talking of specific measurements. People in the UK generally measure themselves in feet/inches; stones/pounds etc, and distances between locations are measured in miles. You say the "measurements have to come from somewhere". They do - roadsigns established this type of measurement many years ago.


 * Derry Boi: "Also when I see a sign saying somewhere is X miles away, I convert this into kilometres and think it is Y kilometres away." You may be the exception that proves the rule I'm afraid. Everyone I ever speak to in Northern Ireland, or elsewhere in the UK say, "X is Y miles away", or ask, "How many miles to X?" So far the UK has resisted any notion of changing this to kilometres, and I personally can't see it changing any time soon: like the USA, we're just too used to it. --Mal 10:20, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Sorry Mal/Setanta747 unless you prove you have a valid case its not going to change. Anyway your only converting metric to imperial. Sigh. Their is a consensus here for metric firsly, put imperial secondly of you wish. Thats it. If you are not happy take another wikiholiday. Djegan 10:36, 27 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I suspect you are only "testing the waters" and would eventually do this to all Northern Ireland articles that you have tagged (i.e. just about every article even vaguely associated with Northern Ireland). If this was been done in good faith then you would convert all such articles now, but some of them have metric only and we would not want it to be known that we were amaturishly converting metric to imperial and then putting imperial most prominantly. We might have to actually do some work to accompish such a task, and citations of such details for referencing. Djegan 10:46, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

County St Mirren
I just removed the reference to the county being previously known as "County St Mirren". It was added by an anon IP in February. The IP has only made a handful of edits, mostly vandalism. Also I can find *absolutely* no evidence to the county ever bearing the name. Lozleader 09:09, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Map
I uploaded a newer county map on par with the county maps for counties of ireland. these maps highlights the position of the county within the island of Ireland as well as Northern Ireland thus satisfying the pattern shown for the other county maps. I am aware that the other maps was just of Northern Ireland counties, however the location of the county on an "island-wide" basis is more beneficial to tourists and is a compromise that should satisfy both Nationalists and Unionists. --  RÓNÁN   "Caint / Talk"  17:18, 11 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I find these unionist/nationalist edit wars rather asinine, but I note that if you look at, say, Kent or Powys, their maps only show the parent politcal unit (England, Wales) and not any geographically adjacent territory. Thus following this style precedent, Down should only show Northern Ireland, and Mayo should only show the Republic of Ireland, etc. Personally I'm not sure I like this convention, as the maps would surely be more informative if they showed adjacent areas?--feline1 17:21, 11 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I also seen that for other areas in the UK, however I thought as you did, that it would be more beneficial to show the whole island (indeed for foreigners looking for the location of the county) as is shown for counties in other provinces on the island of Ireland. Take County Cork for example.
 * --  RÓNÁN   "Caint / Talk"  19:03, 11 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Are English and Welsh counties one in the same thing? Are we compairing like-with-like? Compairing England and Wales with the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland maybe simplistic at best. Their is (or at least was) a "style precedent" for Ireland; and that is all counties on the map are shown irrespective of which side of the border. Djegan 20:11, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

One of the problems with the most recent maps (for instance) is that one might have validly believed that Northern Ireland was an island entirely surrounded by water. It would be a good idea, as a miniumum, to at least imply their is an independent and separate political entity to the south and west as indicated on some other mapping styles (for instance as in the U.S.). Djegan 20:30, 11 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank you Djegan, that was the point i was trying to explain. It does look from just the Northern Ireland map that is it solely an island and this is confusing to non-Irish/UK observers. I would like to hear other peoples opinions on this map type, especially Unionists to see if this is ok with everyone to use! --  RÓNÁN   "Caint / Talk"  20:47, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Earthquake
Can anyone please elaborate on the apparent earthquake in Down on 27 February 2008? Stampede1961 (talk) 02:21, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

An vs. na
this has come up in other articles re. irish naming convention, but if the translation to english is 'county OF the fort', shouldn't the irish be 'contae na duin'? my limited irish translates 'contae an duin' as 'county the fort'.Toyokuni3 (talk) 02:34, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
 * No this is not needed as Irish is not literally translated to English, but the English version of the name is roughly translated frokm the Irish (Gaeilge) version. Co. An Dúin means The Fort County.--  RÓNÁN   "Caint / Talk"  11:41, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Northern Ireland county maps
There is a discussion ongoing about the locator maps for Northern Ireland counties — see here. ~Asarlaí 19:49, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

Population of County Down in the 2001 Census
Population of County Down cannot be determined absolute as information in the census is no longer collected on a county basis. However, a relatively reliable estimate can be made using the figures and maps provided by the Ordnance Survey and the fingures from the 2001 Census freely available from NISRA. Despite Belfast, Lisburn, Newry & Mourne and Craigavon council areas all crossing the county boundaries, the electoral wards within them tend not to. In the small amount of cases where the Electoral Wards do cross into County Antrim or County Armagh, the Census Output Areas serve as a yet smaller geographical breakdown of the figures. In certain circumstances these Census Output Areas do cross the border and I have chosen to only select those which the majority of the Area is within County Down. If anyone has any queries or suggestions please get in contact. I'm going to replace the 489,000 number which has not yet been sourced at the time of writing. The Wikipedia article for County Cork states that the population of that county in 2006 was 481,294 which is lower than both 492,840 and 489,000 and so County Down seems to be the third, rather than the fourth largest county in Ireland. Cuirfear fáilte roimh chomhfhreagras i nGaeilge. Correspondance in Irish is welcomed. D.de.loinsigh (talk) 19:27, 10 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Incuded in their entirity:
 * Ards (ie. Newtownards)	73244
 * Banbridge		41392
 * Castlereagh		66488
 * Down (ie. Downpatrick)	63828
 * North Down (ie. Bangor)	76323

TOTAL: 492840 D.de.loinsigh (talk) 19:27, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
 * And parts of the following local government areas:
 * Belfast
 * Ballyhackamore 5694
 * Ballymacarrett 4947
 * Ballynafeigh 5248
 * Belmont 6015
 * Bloomfield 5531
 * Cerryvalley 5935
 * Island 4284
 * Knock	4993
 * Orangefield 5499
 * Ravenhill 5512
 * Rosetta 5114
 * Stormont 5535
 * Sydenham 5228
 * The Mount 4258
 * Wookstock 5138
 * Craigavon
 * Aghagallon
 * 95LL010004	405
 * Bleary
 * 95LL050001	330
 * 95LL050005	363
 * 95LL050006	349
 * 95LL050007	382
 * 95LL050008	376
 * 95LL050009	437
 * Donaghcloney		2800
 * Magheralin		3895
 * Except 95LL190007	-390
 * Waringstown		3363
 * Lisburn
 * Ballymacbrennan		3123
 * Blairis			2893
 * Dromara			3979
 * Drombo			3006
 * Hillhall			2816
 * Hillsborough		3311
 * Maghaberry
 * 95SS210002	413
 * 95SS210003	378
 * Maze	3392
 * Except	95SS230001	-318
 * Moira			4121
 * Except		95SS240009	-371
 * Newry and Mourne
 * Annalong			3047
 * Ballybot
 * 95VV020003	406
 * 95VV020004	336
 * 95VV020006	259
 * 95VV020007	205
 * Binnian			2752
 * Burren and Kilbroney	3327
 * Clonallen			3984
 * Daisy Hill
 * 95VV100002	344
 * 95VV100008	281
 * 95VV100009	311
 * Derryleckagh		3870
 * Donaghmore		2942
 * Drumalane
 * 95VV140002	219
 * 95VV140003	335
 * 95VV140006	397
 * Drumgullion
 * 95VV150003	418
 * 95VV150005	313
 * 95VV150006	334
 * Kilkeel Central		3562
 * Kilkeel South		2863
 * Lisnacree			2559
 * Mayobridge		2993
 * Rostrevor			2609
 * Seaview			3103
 * Spelga			2764
 * St. Mary’s			2352
 * St. Patrick’s		3443
 * Tullyhappy
 * 95VV290007	318
 * Windsor Hill		2935

Catholic population?
What is it? Curiously, this article doesn't say. 79.97.154.238 (talk) 19:24, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
 * 33 per cent, according to this, but I don't know how reliable/up-to-date it is. — Jon C.  ॐ  19:47, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

error in map
Just like to point out that the map on the page is incorrect in that it shows east belfast to be a part of antrim.. the lagan is the border. Ive seen many other places that make this same mistake and i cant work out why. Eleutherius (talk) 00:12, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

I think the boundary may have been changed in the late 19th century, but people still go with the old usage. 94.194.221.149 (talk) 19:50, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
 * It is based on a council boundary map which erronenously had it. It does need fixing and I should be tasked with it as I made the maps. Mabuska (talk) 16:47, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Population of County Down in the 2011 UK Census
As I've mentioned before on this page (see "Population of County Down in the 2001 Census") one cannot be certain as to the exact population of any county in Northern Ireland as statistics are not collected on a county basis anymore - rather district council, electoral wards, Westminster constituencies etc. are prefered. Below is an updated account of my relatively reliable estimate based on the recently released detailed breakdown in the figures from the 2011 UK Census. I have used exactly the same process as last time. No area included last time (when, in 2010, I did this same culculation for the 2001 census) has been left out this time, and vice versa.

The only thing that has changed is the name used by the Northern Ireland Statistics and Research Agency to its smallest geographic area of record; what used to be called a "census output area" is now called a "small area". But these are exactly the same entity - their boundaries have not changed. However, as part of this change their code identier has changed also. For ease of reference I have given both below. The order is the same as last time (despite the fact that these new codes might suggest a new order be adopted).

In brief County Down had an appoximate population of 492,840 in 2001 according to the UK Census of that year. The approximate corresponding figure from the 2011 UK Census is 531,665. Regarding County Cork: again County Down appears to be the third, rather than the fourth, largest county on the island of Ireland in terms of population. County Cork had a population of 518,128 in the Republic of Ireland's 2011 Census.

As previously, any queries or suggestions are most welcome. Cuirfear fáilte roimh chomhfhreagras i nGaeilge. Correspondance in Irish is welcomed.


 * Ards (ie. Newtownards)	78078
 * Banbridge		48339
 * Castlereagh		67242
 * Down (ie. Downpatrick)	69731
 * North Down (ie. Bangor)	78937

TOTAL: 531665 D.de.loinsigh (talk • contribs) 03:28, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
 * And parts of the following local government areas:
 * Belfast
 * Ballyhackamore 5939
 * Ballymacarrett 4908
 * Ballynafeigh 5928
 * Belmont 6165
 * Bloomfield 5453
 * Cherryvalley 5920
 * Island 5014
 * Knock	4827
 * Orangefield 5619
 * Ravenhill 6041
 * Rosetta 6564
 * Stormont 5548
 * Sydenham 4874
 * The Mount 5591
 * Wookstock 5445
 * Craigavon
 * Aghagallon
 * 95LL010004 (formerly N00002173) 476
 * Bleary
 * N00002206 (formerly 95LL050001) 325
 * N00002204 (formerly 95LL050005) 431
 * N00002207 (formerly 95LL050006) 299
 * N00002208 (formerly 95LL050007) 334
 * N00002209 (formerly 95LL050008) 361
 * N00002210 (formerly 95LL050009) 417
 * Donaghcloney 3989
 * Magheralin 5148
 * Except N00002331 (formerly 95LL190007) -606
 * Waringstown 4536
 * Lisburn
 * Ballymacbrennan 3372
 * Blairis 3375
 * Dromara 4698
 * Drombo 3364
 * Hillhall 2905
 * Hillsborough 3758
 * Maghaberry
 * N00003448 (formerly 95SS210002) 540
 * N00003449 (formerly 95SS210003) 431
 * Maze 3816
 * Except N00003469 (formerly 95SS230001) -373
 * Moira	5139
 * Except N00003476 (formerly 95SS240009) -734
 * Newry and Mourne
 * Annalong 3211
 * Ballybot
 * N00003678 (formerly 95VV020003) 378
 * N00003679 (formerly 95VV020004) 327
 * N00003681 (formerly 95VV020006) 409
 * N00003682 (formerly 95VV020007) 226
 * Binnian 2752
 * Burren and Kilbroney 4506
 * Clonallen 4393
 * Daisy Hill
 * N00003738 (formerly 95VV100002) 292
 * N00003741 (formerly 95VV100008) 244
 * N00003742 (formerly 95VV100009) 316
 * Derryleckagh 4458
 * Donaghmore 3473
 * Drumalane
 * N00003772 (formerly 95VV140002) 186
 * N00003773 (formerly 95VV140003) 323
 * N00003769 (formerly 95VV140006) 351
 * Drumgullion
 * N00003776 (formerly 95VV150003) 384
 * N00003778 (formerly 95VV150005) 391
 * N00003779 (formerly 95VV150006) 355
 * Kilkeel Central 3687
 * Kilkeel South	2983
 * Lisnacree 2990
 * Mayobridge 4037
 * Rostrevor 2893
 * Seaview 3067
 * Spelga 3583
 * St. Mary’s 2284
 * St. Patrick’s 3530
 * Tullyhappy
 * N00003880 (formerly 95VV290007) 469
 * Windsor Hill 3003

Downshire
The sentence "The county was archaically called Downshire" seems unsatisfactory. The marquisate of Downshire is still a current peerage, and there is a hotel of that name in Banbridge, but the adjective "archaic" means not simply "disused" but "ancient". I'm also unsure whether "Downshire" was exclusively used at any point, or whether its use was always contemporaneous with "County Down". I would propose to replace the sentence with "A former name for the county was Downshire". Deipnosophista (talk) 12:01, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

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Government
Ignorant outsider here: is there any kind of county-level government or administration? If so, this should be added to the article. If not, it's worth pointing out, since in general one would expect an administrative division like a county to correspond to some level of government. Thanks! Grover cleveland (talk) 20:39, 16 January 2019 (UTC)
 * I've added a stub section on local government, based on what I could discover from poking around other Wikipedia pages. Please correct if wrong!  Thanks. Grover cleveland (talk) 20:58, 16 January 2019 (UTC)