Talk:County routes in California/Archive 1

Article name

 * Please stop moving this article. List of California State Routes has set the precedent. This article is to have the title List of California County Routes. Also per American English all common nouns are capitalized in titles of books, plays, movies and ARTICLES. Only in section titles are the subsequent titles to not have capitalization per the Wikipedia style guide. Another example would be Manual of Style (note style is capitalized). Try reading it please. Gateman1997 02:44, 8 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Pardon me, but I think a few hundred years of the English language has set the precedent! Please try reading a newspaper, the article titles are NOT capitalized.  A matter of opinion is one thing, but a matter of fact is quite another.  This is very obviously a matter of fact.  If there are are other articles titled this way, then they are wrong too.  Wikipedia's style manual clearly states at the top that: "Unless the term you wish to create a page for is a proper noun, do not capitalize second and subsequent words".  California is the only proper noun in the title and therefore is the only word that should be capitalized.   –radiojon 03:42, 2005 August 8 (UTC)

Requested page move to list of California county routes
A request has been made to move List of California County Routes ? List of California county routes. As per Naming conventions

Discussion

 * Support page move. Blank Verse   &empty;  03:32, 8 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Strongly support, per above.  –radiojon 03:42, 2005 August 8 (UTC)


 * Strongly Disagree. This article is in line with ALL similar articles such as List of California State Routes, List of Arizona State Routes, and Manual of Style. Not to mention the fact that California County Route is a proper noun referring to a specific type of route.Gateman1997 03:47, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Forgot to mention the Main Page doesn't follow your contrived rules.Gateman1997 17:33, 8 August 2005 (UTC)


 * DISAGREE. This is a California County Route not a California county route. For consistency purposes with the pages Gatekeeper mentioned above, and because it is a proper noun when used with something... like (County Route S-14) or (Shasta County Route 223) or (Shasta County Route) or (California County Route). --Rschen7754 16:11, August 8, 2005 (UTC)
 * With all due respect... shouldn't the people who actually work on the highways pages be deciding this? --Rschen7754 17:48, August 8, 2005 (UTC)
 * DISAGREE!!!!!!!! Here is the 1-2-3:
 * The move to list of California county routes was made without the consensus of those who ACTUALLY WORK ON HIGHWAYS ARTICLES. The people working on the WP that this is part of did not approve this move. Only people who are not listed under the Participants section of the WP page want this move to occur... interesting. I have made 427 article space edits, and I believe that there were 5 that were not highway-related. I also have started 2 WPs related to highways and am part of 2 more. I would do more work on Wikipedia if I wasn't still in high school... but I'm getting off topic. Shouldn't those who have a certain expertise in an area be the ones working on that area in Wikipedia? Isn't that the point? I don't mean to offend anyone.
 * Naming_conventions states that "Do not capitalize second and subsequent words unless the title is a proper noun (such as a name) or is otherwise almost always capitalized (for example: John Wayne, but Computer game)."
 * In this case "California County Route" is a proper noun... "county route" should be uncapitalized" but "California County Route" should be capitalized... just as "country" is uncapitalized but "United States of America" is capitalized. Even if you do not consider "California County Route" a proper noun, it is still often capitalized...
 * This page has happily resided at List of California County Routes for a long time... since June 21, 2005 to be exact. Why does it need to be moved? Can you just create a List of California state routes redirect?

--Rschen7754 23:21, August 8, 2005 (UTC)
 * Support. "County Route" is a proper noun only when referring to a specific county route. Just like "Street" is a proper noun when talking about "Elm Street," but not when talking about "a list of local streets." Squib 22:41, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
 * This is referring to a specific route type... a California County Route. Please see Talk:list of California state routes for a similar discussion and a much better explaination by TEG.
 * Respectfully, the explanation there is entirely unsupported and wrong. Just saying it's a proper noun doesn't make it so, even if done in bold type with a series of exclamation points. California county routes is no more a proper noun than California county supervisors, California county sheriffs, or California county fairs. The operative word in your characterization "specific route type" is type. It's a category of routes and therefore not a proper noun. Squib 16:40, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Strongly Disagree As per mentioned above, it is a California County Route. The California County Route is a proper name, and as per Naming conventions (capitalization), it should be County Route.  Likewise, the article is not United states highway 101, it is United States Highway 101.  Also note List of U.S. Highways. atanamir 23:04, 8 August 2005 (UTC)


 * Leaning Support move to lowercase. Googling "California County Route" gets three hits, and "California County Routes" only gets 15 displayed, mostly Wikipedia and mirrors, so I find the claim it's a proper noun unlikely--nobody but Wikipedia seems to use it. (FWIW "California State Routes" is used by others. Niteowlneils 05:08, 10 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Googling "California county route" and "California county routes"... it appears that Google is not case sensitive... but the only "California county route(s)" hits were off Wikipedia or its mirrors. --Rschen7754 15:52, August 10, 2005 (UTC)

Decision
Since no consensus has developed in over the 5 days recommended, I'm going to be bold and remove this from Requested moves.Gateman1997 16:58, 14 August 2005 (UTC)


 * So 60% (3-2) is consensus for list of California state routes, but 57% (4-3) is not consensus for List of California County Routes! At WP:RM is says "The time for discussion may be extended if a consensus has not emerged.", and the one vote difference at both pages clearly suggests that a consensus has not emerged at either page. Blank Verse   &empty;  03:50, 16 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Regardless I made a BOLD judgement call and closed it after 5 days. You were on tedious ground at best. Accept the consensus. You may disagree, but that doesn't mean you're right. I'm not sure what California State Routes was at but I didn't close that one out.Gateman1997 06:49, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Order of places on each page
I think these pages should list locations from north to south, not south to north. The north to south listing makes it easier to compare the article with a map (where north is usually at the top of the page). It also makes it easier for people who place each location on a mental map as they read the article. --Jasper (talk - contribs - count) 19:11, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Okay... not a problem as long as it's a county route. If it was a state highway that would be a different matter. --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs - count) 19:13, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I think for consistency with other numbered highways in California it should remain South to North.Gateman1997 06:11, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Order of routes in the list
I think the routes should be sorted by label rather than by county; the county can go after. --NE2 07:45, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Personally I think it's easier to navigate by county then by some giant list. However we could always create a second list on another page or lower on this one if people would like that as well. Gateman1997 15:43, 14 March 2007 (UTC)


 * It's not easier if you're looking for a route by designation. However, does the list need to be this big? Can't we just do something like this?
 * Alameda County: J2 and J4
 * Alpine County: E1
 * and so on. --NE2 17:00, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
 * This was actually patterned after State highways in California which is what all the state route lists look like, so I wouldn't classify it as large. It's actually a very small list. Gateman1997 19:55, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
 * If it was patterned after that, it would be organized by designation, and would have descriptions. --NE2 20:06, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
 * They are currently listed by designation, under their respective counties to make them easier to locate. Remember Co routes in California are named for their county, ie: Santa Clara County Route G2, they just aren't named that way due to many of the routes crossing county lines. But they're not a statewide system like state routes. They are all designated and maintained by the individual counties. Also the descriptions weren't there when this list was first created. And indeed none of the other state route lists have descriptions either. Gateman1997 21:40, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
 * But the routes don't have "respective counties", since many of them cross county lines. It's a lot like the U.S. Highway System; we don't list them by state on list of United States Numbered Highways, because it's easier to locate the route you are looking for by number. --NE2 22:06, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
 * By the way, what's your source on the name being in the form "Santa Clara County Route G2"? The official sources in all use "County Route N2" with no "Los Angeles" before. --NE2 22:08, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

What about organizing them by family? e.g. the letter before the number? Typically all the "S" routes are in 1 or 2 counties for example... --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 22:43, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
 * That's essentially what I was suggesting, with possibly a condensed list below by county:
 * Alameda County: J2 and J4
 * Alpine County: E1
 * --NE2 22:53, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I personally don't think there is anything wrong with it as it is now. It's clean, it's logical and it's easy to navigate. The only thing I would suggest for condensing if we want to is follow the CA State Hwy example and remove the shields. But if you must have it by letter I would suggest having both like cahighways.org has it. Keep what we have now and then below it list them by letter as well. Gateman1997 23:17, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Verifying the list
Unless noted, the following information is from the CRS maps. I need to revisit the maps once 15U-21U and 15V-21V are up. --NE2 04:45, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
 * CR A1, SR 36 to SR 139
 * CR A2, SR 299 to SR 139
 * CR A3, US 395 to US 395
 * CR A5, SR 36 to I-5
 * CR A6, SR 36 to Manton
 * CR A7, ? (cahighways says Live Oak Road at Ridge Road) to SR 36
 * CR A8, SR 99 to SR 36
 * CR A9, Paskenta to SR 99
 * CR A10, I-5 to Mount Shasta (mountain)
 * CR A11, ? (cahighways says I-5) to CR A8
 * CR A12, I-5 to US 97
 * CR A13, SR 147 to SR 36
 * CR A14, Plumas-Eureka State Park to SR 89
 * CR A15, SR 89 to SR 70
 * CR A16, SR 36 to SR 273 (presumably the shield in the northeast corner of is wrong)
 * CR A17, I-5 to SR 44
 * CR A18, SR 273 to Shasta Lake
 * CR A19, SR 89 to SR 299
 * CR A20, SR 299 to CR A19
 * CR A21, SR 147 to SR 44
 * CR A22, SR 89 to Taylorsville
 * CR A23, SR 89 to SR 70
 * CR A24, SR 49 to SR 70
 * CR A25, US 395 to Herlong
 * CR A26, US 395 to Herlong
 * CR A27, SR 36 to US 395
 * CR A28, not on the CRS maps
 * CR B2, SR 70 to SR 162
 * CR C1, not on the CRS maps
 * CR D1, Jack McNamara Field to US 101
 * CR D2, US 101 to CR D3
 * CR D3, US 101 to US 101
 * CR D4, US 101 to US 101
 * CR D5, US 101 to US 101
 * CR D6-D8, not on the CRS maps
 * CR E1, Grover Hot Springs State Park to SR 89
 * CR E2, SR 99 to I-80 at Douglas Boulevard
 * CR E3, US 50 to I-80
 * CR E4, ? (cahighways says SR 16) to I-5
 * CR E5, SR 49/108 to SR 49
 * CR E6, I-505 to I-80
 * CR E7-E8, not on the CRS maps
 * CR E9, SR 160 to SR 160
 * CR E10, I-505 to SR 113
 * CR E11, SR 113 to SR 45
 * CR E12, CR J8 to CR E2
 * CR E13, CR J11 to SR 99
 * CR E14, SR 99 to ? (cahighways says CR E3)
 * CR E15, SR 108/120 to ? (cahighways says SR 4)
 * CR E16, SR 49 to US 50
 * CR E17-E18, not on the CRS maps
 * CR E19, SR 84 to CR E9
 * CR E20-E21, not on the CRS maps
 * CR G1, SR 156 to Fremont Peak State Park
 * CR G2, SR 9? (cahighways says SR 85) to SR 237
 * CR G3, I-280 to US 101
 * CR G4, SR 17 to I-880? (cahighways says I-680)
 * CR G5, CR G3 to I-280
 * CR G6, CR G3 to CR G4? (cahighways says US 101)
 * CR G7, SR 25 to SR 152
 * CR G8, ? (cahighways says SR 152) to Alma Avenue? (cahighways says SR 82)
 * CR G9, US 101 to SR 152
 * CR G10, not on the CRS maps
 * CR G11, CR G12 to US 101
 * CR G12, US 101 to SR 129
 * CR G13, US 101 to SR 25
 * CR G14, US 101 to US 101
 * CR G15, US 101 to SR 146
 * CR G16, SR 1 to CR G15
 * CR G17, SR 1 to CR G16
 * CR G18, CR G14 to US 101
 * CR G19, CR G14 to CR G18
 * CR G20, CR G16 to SR 68
 * CR G21, not on the CRS maps
 * CR J1, SR 25 to SR 180 (cahighways says SR 33)
 * CR J2, SR 84? (cahighways says I-580) to SR 4
 * CR J3, SR 132 to SR 12
 * CR J4, SR 4 to CR J3
 * CR J5, SR 99 to ? (cahighways says CR J12)
 * CR J6, SR 108 to SR 26 ( typos it as J5)
 * CR J7, ? (cahighways says SR 99) to SR 59
 * CR J8, SR 99 to Broadway? (cahighways says SR 99)
 * CR J9, SR 99? (cahighways says I-5) to CR J17
 * CR J10, March Lane? (cahighways says CR J8) to SR 99
 * CR J11, SR 160 to J8
 * CR J12, I-5? (cahighways says CR J8) to SR 99? (cahighways says SR 88)
 * CR J13, I-205? (cahighways says Bus. 205) to CR J2 (cahighways says Bethany Road)
 * CR J14, SR 99 to SR 26
 * CR J15, SR 190 to SR 201
 * CR J16, I-5 to ? (cahighways says SR 49)
 * CR J17, I-5 to SR 59
 * CR J18, I-5 to SR 99
 * CR J19, SR 198 to SR 63
 * CR J20, SR 49 to SR 120 (apparently now CR J132)
 * CR J21, SR 216 to SR 245
 * CR J22, ? (cahighways says Road 38) to Fountain Springs
 * CR J23, SR 137 to SR 216
 * CR J24, SR 99 to CR J29? (cahighways says SR 65), SR 190 to CR J37 (cahighways doesn't have this section)
 * CR J25, SR 137 to SR 198
 * CR J26, ? (cahighways says SR 99) to SR 65
 * CR J27, ? (cahighways says CR J22) to SR 137, SR 198 to SR 245
 * CR J28, SR 99? (cahighways says CR J27) to SR 190
 * CR J29, CR J24? (cahighways says SR 190) to CR J28? (cahighways says SR 65)
 * CR J30, SR 99 to CR J23? (cahighways says SR 65)
 * CR J31, CR J36 to Reedley? (cahighways says CR J40)
 * CR J32, SR 99 to ? (cahighways says SR 63)
 * CR J33, CR J22 to ? (cahighways says SR 43)
 * CR J34, CR J19 to SR 63? (cahighways says SR 216)
 * CR J35, CR J44 to SR 65? (cahighways says CR J22)
 * CR J36, SR 99 to SR 63? (cahighways says CR J31)
 * CR J37, SR 198? (cahighways says SR 190) to Mountain Home Tract State Forest
 * CR J38, SR 99 to SR 63
 * CR J40, SR 99 to SR 245? (cahighways says SR 63)
 * CR J41, not on the CRS maps
 * CR J42, SR 190 to Tule River Indian Reservation
 * CR J44, ? (cahighways says SR 99) to CR J35
 * CR J46, ? (cahighways says CR J15) to CR J27
 * CR J59, CR J16 to SR 108/120
 * CR N1, SR 1 to ? (cahighways says US 101)
 * CR N2, SR 138 to SR 14
 * CR N3, SR 2 to SR 14
 * CR N4, SR 2 to SR 138
 * CR N5, SR 14 to ? (cahighways says Butte Valley Wildflower Area)
 * CR N6, Devils Punchbowl Park to SR 138
 * CR N7 is shown as SR 107 on the CRS maps
 * CR N8, not on the CRS maps
 * CR N9, SR 1 to ? (cahighways says US 101)
 * CR R2, not on the CRS maps
 * CR R3, SR 79 to off the CRS maps? (cahighways says SR 74)
 * CR S1, SR 79 to SR 94
 * CR S2, SR 79 to I-8? (cahighways says SR 98)
 * CR S3, SR 78 to CR S22
 * CR S4, I-15 to SR 67
 * CR S5, CR S4 to I-15
 * CR S6, CR S21 to SR 76? (cahighways says Palomar Observatory)
 * CR S7, SR 76 to ? (cahighways says Palomar Mountain State Park)
 * CR S8, CR S21 to CR S6
 * CR S9, CR S21 to CR S8
 * CR S10, CR S11? (cahighways says CR S9) to CR S14
 * CR S11, CR S9 to SR 78
 * CR S12, CR S21 to I-15
 * CR S13, SR 78 to I-15
 * CR S14, SR 76 to Centre City Parkway
 * CR S15, CR S13 to old US 395? (cahighways says I-15)
 * CR S16, not on the CRS maps
 * CR S17, I-5 to I-8? (cahighways says SR 94)
 * CR S18, SR 133 to SR 55
 * CR S19, CR S18 to Oneill Regional Park
 * CR S21, I-5 to I-5
 * CR S22, CR S2 to SR 86
 * CR S24, I-8 to Imperial Dam
 * CR S25, not on the CRS maps
 * CR S26, SR 78/86 to CR S32? (cahighways says SR 115)
 * CR S27, CR S30 to CR S33
 * CR S28, ? (cahighways says CR S30) to CR S33? (cahighways says CR S32)
 * CR S29, SR 98 to CR S80
 * CR S30, SR 98 to SR 111
 * CR S31, SR 98 to SR 78
 * CR S32, I-8 to CR S26? (cahighways says SR 78)
 * CR S33, SR 98 to SR 78
 * CR S34, I-8 to SR 78
 * CR S80, CR S2 to SR 115

There are a lot of simple numeric designations in Yolo County. There's also a CR 10 in Santa Clara County and a CR 16 in Riverside County.

The following are on 1963 Gousha and 1964 Rand McNally maps: --NE2 05:14, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
 * A2 A3 A10 A12 A13 A14 A15 A16 A17 A18 A19 A20 A21 A22 A23 A24
 * G1
 * J1 J2 J4 J7 J8 J10 J11
 * S1 S2 S3 S4 S5 S6 S7 S9 S10 S13 S15 S16 S17 S18 S19

The Area of Each County Route Letter
A: CR A's are in the Cascade Range/North Sacramento Valley area. Counties: Lassen, Tehama, Siskiyou, Plumas, Shasta, Sierra

B: There is only one CR B, and that is Butte County Route B2. Counties: Butte

C: There is only one CR C, and that is Sonoma County Route C1. Counties: Sonoma

D: CR D's exist in only one county, that is Del Notre Counties: Del Notre

E: CR E's are in the Southern/Central Sacramento Valley. Counties: Alpine, Sacramento, Placer, Tuolumne, Yolo, Solano, Calaveras, Amador, El Dorado, Yuba, Butte, Plumas

G: CR G's exist mostly in the Bay Area/Central Coast. Counties: San Benito, Santa Clara, Monterey, San Luis Obispo, Santa Cruz

J: CR J's exist in the San Joaquin Valley Counties: San Joaquin, Stanislaus, San Benito, Fresno, Inyo, Tulare, Merced, Mariposa, Alameda, Contra Costa, Sacramento, Tuolumne, Calaveras

N: CR N's exist in Los Angeles and outskirts. Counties: Los Angeles, Orange

R: There are 2 CR R's: Riverside County Route R2, and Riverside County Route R3. They are in the Desert Area of Riverside County. Counties: Riverside

S: The CR S's is probably the County Route Range with the most area. They exist in the Southern Empire. Counties: San Diego, Riverside, Orange, Imperial, Santa Barbara Notes: Santa Barbara's county route, S20, is now part of California State Route 1.

TheMinigolfMaster111 (talk) 19:58, 9 June 2008 (UTC)