Talk:Courage/Archive 1

Forty-nine charismatic virtues move
Some content moved to Forty-nine charismatic virtues. Peter Manchester 13:29, 25 Nov 2003 (UTC)
 * The above article was apparently quickly deleted as a vanity article. I've brought back the small paragraph that was "moved", with some copy-editing. 70.15.116.59 17:25, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Needs Two More categories-- emotional courage and spiritual courage
Courage to face ones own fears. Courage to seek spiritual truth or courage to open oneself to a greater experience. Courage also to serve a cause greater than oneself.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.138.173.229 (talk) 04:40, 6 April 2007 (UTC).

A Nice Little Anecdote.
A student was given their final exam in philosophy from their professor. A single, simple question: What is courage?

There were several white blank pages given.

The student's response: leaving all the pages empty except for:

this is.

They received an A+.

I knew the same story with audacity. In my opinion, this is not courage by the way, but audacity indeed, or even recklessness ;) Fafner 13:40, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
 * It's always been "courage" when I've heard it. I would also contend that it is courage as well as audacity. -  Swi tch t 11:02, 24 November 2006 (UTC)


 * As always, Yiddish can come to the rescue. The virtue illustrated here is clearly chutzpah.  Both courage and audacity are poor substitutes.  ;)  Elmo iscariot (talk) 13:52, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

living courage
Have the courage to live. Anyone can die. ~Robert Cody - 09:49, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Merge to courage
The moral courage page and the civil courage page should be Merged to the courage page. Both are relatively short articles, not to mention the fact that they are specific types of courage. Adding them to the courage article would help improve the quality of that article, as well as the concepts of all three articles due to their better proximity to one another in accordance with their relatedness. As to the position of moral courage with respect to civil courage, I would argue that while "civil courage" (according to the Google test) is a less common term, it is more distinct from courage than "moral courage" is. That is to say, "moral courage" is basically courage with a religious-/philosophical- connotations while civil courage is (descriptively, at least) a distinct type [civilian] of courage. 24.126.199.129 20:15, 19 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Moral courage definitely should be merged, especially as the separate article sounds more like an inspirational piece than an encyclopedia. I'm not sure that civil courage is notable term.  Goldfritha 22:15, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Don't merge - just refer
I disagree that "moral courage" should be merged with "courage" if that means the end of the "moral courage" site. Moral courage, as defined by multiple scholars, is the antithesis of physical courage. Physical courage is that which is required by a sense of self-preservation, which is selfish in nature. Fly a plane? Kill someone in war? Go bouldering when you're acrophobic? These are all examples requiring physical courage.

Moral courage, on the other hand, is that attribute defined by Rushworth Kidder being “the quality of mind and spirit that enables one to face up to ethical dilemmas and moral wrongdoings firmly and confidently, without flinching or retreating.”  William Ian Miller expanded and refined the definition by adding that “moral courage has come to mean the capacity to overcome the fear of shame and humiliation in order to admit one’s mistakes, to confess a wrong, to reject evil conformity, to denounce injustice, and also to defy immoral or imprudent orders.”

Now, it might be true that a sense of moral courage is necessary to precipitate physical courage, e.g. a firefighter rushing into a burning building to save someone s/he does not know. That requires both kind of courage. But one is generally self-centered, and the other one is considered other-centered.

The subject of moral courage is becoming increasingly important in the business place and in political science. Sen. Lincoln Chafee recently exhibited great moral courage (whatever your political stand might be) in relying on his ethical sense to be the only Republican to vote against the Iraqi invasion. Many of his Republican counterparts also felt it was immoral to wage war against a country that had not invaded us first - but only Chafee had the moral courage to actually vote his conscience. Moral courage would have prevented nearly all of the financial debacles of the past decade in the US - no one would speak up in time to prevent this kind of horrific economic devastation.

So not only do we need a separate section on moral courage - we need to expand what is already there. Thanks for letting me pontificate - J.Knight


 * Your views of physical courage strike me as rather biased. At the very least -- if it's so selfish to want to live, why on earth is good to indulge other people's selfishness by rescuing them?  Goldfritha 00:02, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

????Why do you say s/he is "biased?" S/he isn't saying it isn't selfish to want to live - s/he is saying that physical courage is mostly involved with saving the self before a concern for others. S/he was not exclusive in his/her definition. It would be more helpful if you disagree to use less inflammatory terms for your disagreement. Why the word "bias?" That's seems a curious objection. Furthermore, certain "selfishness" is an inherent human condition - it is a good thing to stay alive. I don't think that's what that writer was saying. Furthermore, you weren't addressing the original question - should moral courage be merged with courage as subjects?

I believe it should. There is no seperate article for physical courage, and if they really are that different the current article could benefit from adding the two other types of courage in, so there could be a comparison between the different types. Currently the articles are very short and would benefit from this type of move (if they become to different they can always be split back off). None of the current work will just "disappear", it'll be merged, with caution into the article, leaving the text intact. Radagast83 06:36, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Moral courage
From the main article: Moral courage, more than physical courage, is widely debated. It is frequently regarded as courage solely by those who approve of the actions undertaken; those who disapprove are more likely to regard it as an obstinate refusal to be corrected or a shameless determination to do as one pleases. It is an important virtue in various areas of life, including religion, faith and ethics. Shame, indeed, is widely used to socialize, and in many warrior cultures, the threat of shame is used to reinforce physical courage, by reminding warriors that if they retreat rather than die they will be held up to ridicule for having failed their family, their tribe, their nation, their brothers in arms or their cause.

Mahatma Gandhi was an example of one individual who displayed incredible moral courage to stand up to a powerful British Empire in India using truth, nonviolence and nonresistance. Mother Teresa showed similar courage in her work on the streets of Calcutta.

Nurses often speak or act selflessly on patients' behalfs, which often requires moral courage because much health care is now run by institutions or businesses with powerful hierarchies. Other examples may include an individual that does not give in to peer group pressure, or follow the crowd when asked to do something that they are not comfortable with, in terms of one's own personal ethics or morals. This may even result in the individual feeling isolated from friends or colleagues.

Note added by 129.72.68.147: The above is NOT a definition or description of "moral courage." Herein lies the problem with Wikipedia; any fifth grader with a computer can annotate. So "moral courage" is debated. Is that the definition? That it is frequently regarded as courage by those who approve - is that the definition? Transvaal government leader Gen Smuts definitely did NOT approve of Gandhi's civil disobedience, but he came to regard him as the most courageous man he'd ever met. So where does that "definition" go? C'mon guys, get cerebral here. I have removed the above note from the main article. I don't feel "philosophical" enough to deal with this issue, but the note has definitely nothing to do in the main article. Fafner 08:12, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Courage is living through the worst hell you can imagine,all alone. Wanting to die every day, with allmost no hope for the future. Continuing to exist for the sole purpose of not giving up, blind wish that some day you will find something worth living for. Being too weak to fight you fight on, for years, endlesly losing, endlesly alone. Then one day finding all you have been hoping and wishing for, needing through all the years of hardship. Then losing it forewer, ireversably, while your hell continues. Wanting to die twice as hard, but choosing to fight, knowing and believing that in the end it doesnt matter, we all die, but you dont want to give up. Living and breathing pain and missery, knowing and expecting nothing but more in the future, dieing of fear every day, while the pain of the past eats you alive. Then doing it again tomorrow, and the next day, until one day you realise youve won. The pain is no lesser, but it does not eat at you any more, it hurts and you feel it, but it doesnt slow you down. In the end you learn to love, to forgive, to be kind, to take others pain as your own, to shield others from pains you can shield them from, help them with all you can help them with, teach them, care for them, and if necesary die for them - the way they never would have done for you. Courage is doing the hard thing, the right thing, and gladly paying the price with your own blood.

All i want to do until the rest of my life is live with courage, and with courage die.

i like that. thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.21.155.68 (talk) 11:44, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

And what about bravery?
Could someone clarify it in this article, or is it merely a Wiktionary topic? Adam78 09:32, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

what courage means
courange means that what your scared of, you can still try to do what your scared of to show you that you been knowing that you can do that thing all alone but you just didn't know that. You must be brave to others that your shy about. You just have to show up who you are. Courage is not a game to play it's to do the things you can't do. You must try at least once to do courange. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.161.196.78 (talk) 02:01, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

How is courage taught or cultivated?
Many sources define courage, but I think this article would do well to include what ancient and modern sources say about how to develop, teach, or cultivate it. There must be some method apart from the consumption of alcoholic beverages... 70.15.116.59 17:08, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

is social courage has a common with deindividuation?
is social courage has a common with deindividuation? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Potreadalot (talk • contribs) 04:25, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Link to german
Hi,

I think the link to the german wikipda side is wrong, because: "Courage", have in german three significances:
 * I was the one to undo your edit. I did it based on the fact that the "Tapferkeit" article mentions "fortituda", as does this article, while the "Courage" article doesn't mention it (and seems to be a disambiguation page). Otherwise, I have almost no knowledge in German, so I will just left to German speaking people any further decision on that.
 * Fafner (talk) 09:42, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Not courage - nerd! Jay-Kriss —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.219.126.218 (talk) 21:30, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

The Real Definition of Fortitude
HEY GUYS!

Ever heard of the book "Pilgrim Boy"? And ever heard of the character, Fortitude inside it?

Well, when me and my mom read this book together and came upon the Fortitude part - we thought

it was so funny! Funny enough that we made our own little character (Fortitude Jeub-Fortismith)

based on the true definition of Fortitude - nerd. And also his family, which though came after-

wards the original Fortitude kid.

Our character of Fortitude does not call himself "strong" - yet he does call himself, "Defending to the Nerds". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.219.126.218 (talk) 21:37, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Courage in media
If there is courage in literature, why not add courage in media? I believe are are lots of media with themes related to courage. Arthur (talk) 17:00, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

how is literature not a medium? What is relevant here is probably not the medium, but the content of the message, pace McLuhan, so if you have anything significant to add in terms of content, you should most definitely do so. --dab (𒁳) 09:56, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Bravery
The Word bravery means courage or to face or endure with courage. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.89.137.239 (talk) 23:37, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

heyy —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.109.184.184 (talk) 14:17, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Is this ready for GA?
I'm not going to review this for GA, but I don't think it's ready yet. Looking at Reviewing_good_articles, it says to look for "cleanup banners that are obviously still valid"—and there are two banners on the article still. In addition, there are many unsourced areas (second paragraph of "Eastern traditions", all of "Symbolism" and "Awards", first paragraph of "As a strength in psychology"). The article also could benefit from a fresh copyedit.

Just my thoughts, / ƒETCH COMMS  /  17:42, 3 June 2011 (UTC)


 * No, it's not. Courage is a very broad subject which requires a wide array of sources. Half the article ("As a strength in psychology") is entirely based on one organization's work. There are plenty of minor issues too, like the lead not summarizing the article, a lack of footnotes in some sections, apparent original opinions ("courage has been a concept generating interest in the field of psychology"—only one example?). This article is a good start since it addresses different cultures' opinions, but it's not broad or balanced enough for such a fundamental topic. My advice to the nominator is to look at an article like Law—another fundamental human concept. That's an FA so it's more comprehensive than a GA, but it's closer to what would be expected for an article like this. —Designate (talk) 00:48, 6 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Well, I going to try to find some RS sources myself. I agree, it is not GA yet, and the word courage should not be confused with other names, such as Courage the Cowardly Dog, which is not part of the article. JJ98 (Talk / Contributions)  05:25, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Fixed a typo... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.144.25.234 (talk) 07:39, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

Theories of Courage - Middle Ages
I'm concerned that the sub-header, Theories of Courage/Western Antiquity and Middle Ages is misleading since the middle ages aren't discussed at all. There is a quote from Aristole, then a vague reference to Catholicism illustrated by two twentieth century quotations (Maya Angelou and Winston Churchill). Eliskimo (talk) 17:52, 16 May 2012 (UTC) Eliskimo

courage as the most important virtue....!
THE OBSERVATIONS THAT I MADE ABOUT THIS, THE MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL VIRTUES IS THAT FORTITUDE, BRAVERY, OR COURAGE, NAME IT AS YOU WISH HAS TO BE APPLIED IN EVERY ASPECT OF LIVE, I SAY THIS FOR THE SIMPLE REASON OF GOING ON TO THE CONTRARY , OR BEING AND ACTING COWARDLY, WHICH MIGHT BE PUT UP AS THE FEAR OF FACING CERTAIN OR ALL THE CHALLENGES THAT LIFE ITSELF WILL SET ACROSS AN INDIVIDUALS'PATH. FOR THIS I WILL STATE THAT IF SOMEONE HAS THE ABILITY TO OVERCOME COWARDINESS AND LEARN TO ACOMODATE THE USE OF THIS THE MOTHER OF ALL VIRTUES WITH THE REST OF THEM THE RESULT WILL BE OF UNTHINKABLE RESULTS. HERIBERTO NAVARRO OCTOBER THE 9TH 2013

REMOVED: UNCITED, AND PERTAINS MORE TO JUSTICE THAN COURAGE - Civil courage
Civil courage (sometimes also referred to as "Social courage") is defined by many different standards. In general, the term is usually referred to when civilians stand up against something that is deemed unjust and evil, knowing that the consequences of their action might lead to their death, injury or some other form of significant harm.

In some countries (e.g. France and Germany) the duty to come to the rescue of a person in peril is enshrined in criminal law, but this specifically excludes assistance that would seriously endanger the person who is providing it. Narssarssuaq (talk) 10:30, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

Undue representation of Peterson & Seligman's book, institute, and point of view
For a classical topic like courage, I think sections 5 (As a strength in psychology) and 6 (Bravery), based on the 2004 book Character Strengths and Virtues by Peterson & Seligman make up a large portion of this article (the book is cited 10 times). This gives undue prominence to these authors' point of view, theory, and categorization scheme. Per WP:UNDUE, I think these sections need to be removed/rewritten; they are fairly promotional of these authors' work, book, and institute (Virtues in Action, VIA).

Also to be noted is the fact that these parts have been added by a single-purpose account, I love courage. FireflySixtySeven (talk) 10:41, 19 October 2013 (UTC)


 * I agree. I'm not...courageous...enough to remove them immediately, but I added templates to the Bravery section to hopefully generate some editing or other points of view.  If no other opinions are voiced and the sections aren't drastically rewritten, I would remove the content. Ohspite (talk) 05:49, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

"Encouraged" listed at Redirects for discussion
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Encouraged. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. signed,Rosguill talk 05:24, 21 December 2019 (UTC)

Unneeded reference to Hinduism in beginning paragraph
It states that "In the Hindu tradition, mythology has given many examples of bravery, valour and courage with examples of both physical and moral courage exemplified. According to the Hindu religion, bravery and courage are in the blood of all Indians."

I don't think it's necessary to have this section here, to only single out the Indians. Most cultures' mythology has reference to bravery and generally most groups of people claim to innately possess positive attributes like courage or honour. Ourdou (talk) 20:58, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Beetlebailey335.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 18:34, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 13 September 2021 and 13 December 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Alexa K Taylor.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 19:33, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Quote
'Courage Is The Ability To See Oneself Honestly, To Rally The Soul, And To Make The Most Of One's Passion Despite Hardship And Grief.' VerifyTruth927 (talk) 00:07, 2 August 2022 (UTC)