Talk:Cow tipping/Archive 1

Someone had put in a sentence that was grammatically incorrect stating that cows "mostly" sleep laying down. I corrected the grammar and removed the "mostly", as I have never seen a cow sleeping standing up, and though I believe it may happen occasionally, it is misleading to say they "mostly" sleep laying down. Occasionally people fall asleep standing up as well, but I would not say that humans "mostly" sleep laying down on a page where people are trying to propagate some urban legend that requires one to believe that humans frequently sleep standing up. This was then reverted by Academic Challenger with no explanation, and the reversion reintroduced a grammatical error.

Older comments
1. Cows don't sleep standing up. Horses do.

2. I grew up on a cattle-raising farm in Missouri. I never heard of cow tipping until I went to Harvard. When I asked my mom, dad, grandparents, aunts, and uncles to find out if anyone they knew had ever heard of such a thing, guess what? No one ever had. Guess what? These people ALL grew up on cattle-raising farms, too.

(If you haven't heard of cow tipping I'm not sure how you got into Harvard. See the "popular culture" section of the article.)

3. Your notion that cow tipping happens "in certain entertainment-starved rural places" confirms my suspicion that the myth of cow tipping is a corollary to the mocking superciliousness with which many hip urbanites regard farm communities. --Kelly M. Flynn


 * All correct, Kelly. I have edited the page to better clarify that cow tipping is an urban legend. David 21:50 Oct 3, 2002 (UTC)


 * No, all *wrong*. Someone please undo this person's edits. You people don't know what you're talking about.


 * I rearranged a bit so the paragraphs make more sense, and reverted the first sentence to "mostly" urban legend, since many people have in fact attempted the act believing that it was not mythical. --LDC


 * Lee Daniel, I like your reorganization, and I have tried to retain it. However, cow tipping is actually considered to be an urban legend, in spite of the fact that people have attempted to do it. Read the references and see if you agree with me that cow tipping is an urban legend. Therefore, I have restored the description of cow tipping as an urban legend. I have omitted the word 'hoax'. Cow tipping is actually both an urban legend and a hoax, but I'm omitting the word in an attempt to make the article a little more NPOV and be more acceptable to you. David 22:29 Oct 5, 2002 (UTC)


 * If cow tipping is indeed an urban legend, why have farming communities passed laws against it? Don't laws tend to be enacted for problems that actually occur? (Or is this hopelessly naive?)


 * Possibly because farming communities don't want people coming onto private property and pestering their livestock in hopes of tipping it over? Regardless of whether or not it is actually done, prohibiting it by law is intended to prevent people from even trying it, lest they or the cattle be hurt in the attempt (a 700 kg cow is perfectly capable of hurting someone if provoked).


 * Having walked through pastures with herds of cows, I can confirm that, when provoked, those seemingly harmless animals are perfectly capable of attacking humans. I doubt it very much that a cow would let a group of unknown humans approach it and push on it enough to destabilize it. And I'm not even talking of bulls.


 * Sometimes, farmers used to dealing with cows have accidents when their cattle is nervous (which may happen because of strangers, nervosity about calves, etc...). Think of what may befall people without the same experience. David.Monniaux 20:42, 26 May 2004 (UTC)


 * Incidentally, does anyone else find it odd that this article states as fact that "cows are incredibly funny"? Publius 16:52, 17 Jan 2004 (UTC)


 * It's pretty easy to prove by algebra. I've only scanned the bovine comedy literature, but I'm not aware of a refutation. Anyone? chocolateboy 18:58, 17 Jan 2004 (UTC)


 * It's also pretty easy to prove logically that Trent Lott's haircut is Evil; that doesn't make it true. In any event, the fact that it has not been refuted is irrelevant: the burden lay on the person making the claim to prove it to be true. Something is not true because it has not been proven to be false; that's called argumentum ad ignorantiam. Publius 05:29, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)


 * I have discovered a truly marvelous proof of the theorem that cows are incredibly funny. Unfortunately, this Wiki is too narrow to contain it. chocolateboy 11:59, 18 Jan 2004 (UTC)


 * 1. Cows *do* sleep standing up. Unlike horses they also can sleep lying down.


 * 2. I grew up on a cattle farm in Ohio and I had heard of cow tipping by the time I was 4. I had witnessed it first hand by the time I was 5. I have never once met an individual from a rural community that had not heard of cow tipping. When I went off to college at Miami University most people didn't think cow tipping actually happened. As a result it became a popular right of passage among students to engage in cow tipping and experience it for themselves.


 * 3. The notion that cow tipping occurs "in certain entertainment-starved rural places" is more than a notion it is a reality. (Albeit only one common example of the reality.) It is not a myth. Nor is it a means of personal attack by "hip urbanites" against ruralites. In fact, the only person engaging in personal attacks is you by suggesting that (sub)urbanites are so snobbish that they'd go so far as conspiracy to perpetuate the "myth" of cow tipping in order to blemish the respectability of ruralites. -- Stereoisomer 05:42, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Alleged cow tipping laws
Removed:

Some farm communities have passed laws prohibiting cow tipping, as the activity is likely to result in injury to the prospective tippers and/or to the cow.

Evidence? What kind of "laws" would that be? This seems like the kind of stuff added to urban legends to make them more credible.--Eloquence* 14:51, Apr 23, 2004 (UTC)

Urban Myth v Stand-Up
I've removed most of the "stand up comedy" stuff. IMHO, this article was funnier (and more Wikipedian) when it wasn't going overboard on the whimsy and "rib-tickling" pseudoscience. It's an urban myth, after all.

In particular, I've snipped or altered:


 * "The Physics and Biology of Cow-Tipping" heading (sigh: that "routine" is done in the PDF, which is why I linked it in the first place).
 * I've reinstated the original structure. The line "Some versions of the cow tipping story attempt to evade these objections" was rendered meaningless by the reordering.

I also object to (but haven't snipped) the warning, which suggests cow tipping is some kind of Jackass-like extreme sport, rather than a joke from Heathers.

I've merged most of the new material and retained (adjusted) headings.

chocolateboy 10:58, 27 May 2004


 * I think the warning is a good idea. I don't believe that cow-tipping really exists; still, some unwary reader may get the idea that it does and try it, and get hurt. More annoying, that person may have attorneys that will claim that it's somehow Wikipedia's fault. This is far-fetched, but I reckon that American courts have granted damages based on equally silly claims. David.Monniaux 11:36, 27 May 2004 (UTC)


 * This is far-fetched, but I reckon that American courts have granted damages based on equally silly claims.
 * You may be right. But let us not forget that some of those silly claims are also urban myths :-) chocolateboy 12:02, 27 May 2004 (UTC)


 * We do not need to go that far. I can recall a few times in the news when youngsters had grievously harmed themselves trying home-made chemistry or other experiments with explosives - and of course, nowadays, they are said to have viewed the instructions "on the Internet". Then, people blame the "irresponsible" people who had written such instructions. David.Monniaux 12:13, 27 May 2004 (UTC)


 * I've incorporated the warning into the 'debuking' section. If BASE jumping and free-diving don't need safety warnings, I can't see cow-tipping does.Harry R 12:55, 27 May 2004 (UTC)


 * A kid at one of the high schools in our district made thermite out of aluminum foil and rust from an abandoned car and a Mg strip he stole from school, and melted a 6 inch deep hole in the street in front of his house with it. WHile nobody was hurt, if they had been, I can see lawsuits over that kind of thing (which is why I don't give the (fairly obvious)) construction details in this comment).  Pakaran. 14:50, 27 May 2004 (UTC)

I'm from MS and cow tipping is basically snipe hunting. It is an excuse to get someone out in the middle of nowhere, make them look foolish, and potentially then leaving them there in the middle of nowhere. It is pretext for a prank...I've never known anyone to actually tip the cows as they usually sleep on the ground. Vaginsh 23:12, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Another variety of cow tipping, instead of sneaking up on the cow, two people riding an ATV with bags of sand, or another heavy item (including the 2nd rider) and throwing it at a cow this would require significantly less effort on the part of the human. Though the cow would not be asleep the force of the heavy item would almost surely knock over the cow.~Shinny~ 00:42, 9 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Considering most cows weight 1000 pounds or more, do you really think a 50 pound bag of sand (a generous amount compared to what a person could actually "throw") is going to have the slightest effect? Dukemeiser 03:44, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Revisions
Hi ChocolateBoy, I'm a little disapointed that you pretty much reverted all the work I had done on this, as I put quite some time into it. I don't think that the version you put back is as good frankly. My concern especially is over the removal of the refridgerator analogy, which is much more similar than the car, the contextualisation of the sumo wrestler statistic, the traction issue and the dismissal of the University paper with one sentence. Also, I don't think the word 'Bovodynamics' is as appropriate as Zoology and physics'. I'd like to have a go at putting some of this back in, so please let me know your concerns so as to avoid ill feeling. ;) Mark Richards 16:14, 27 May 2004 (UTC)

--

Hi, Mark.

I'm surprised to see that we're in disagreement over this. I thought I'd integrated your stuff pretty well.

The little I did actively snip, I removed for the reasons I gave above.


 * My concern especially is over the removal of the refridgerator analogy, which is much more similar than the car

People tip cars (for instance in the Poll Tax Riots). When do people ever go refrigerator tipping?

I fail to see the purpose of the refrigerator analogy other than as yet another attempt to enhance the would-be slapstick aspects of the article contrary to its clear import as a wry (and dry) account of an urban legend. Of course it was never altogether humourless, but I think shoe-horning knockabout (and in particular fabricated) material into the article ruins the joke.

On top of which, the analogy appears to be yet another copy of a gag from the linked Skeptic article. We've already plundered whole sentences from that piece, which, as far as I can tell, is not available under a free documentation license.

cf.

Wikipedia


 * Unlike horses, cows do not sleep standing and hence cannot 'lock their legs' as horses do.

Skeptic


 * There is no such thing as a cow “locking its legs.” They don’t have to because cows sleep lying down (people may be confusing them with horses which do sleep standing up)

Wikipedia


 * They also do not sleep in the same way as humans do. Most of their sleep is very light and easily disturbed - typical of herd prey animals. They take short naps at regular intervals throughout a 24 hour period, which means that at any given time, some members of the herd are aware and alert.

Skeptic


 * Cows don’t sleep for hours at a time like people do. [ ... ] Most of their “sleeping” is very light—more what we would consider a very relaxed state. Cows [ ... ] take [ ... ] short naps of a few minutes each spread over a 24 hour period. Because each individual cow spends so little time in deep sleep most cows in a herd are alert even at night.

Wikipedia


 * Cows have eyes in the sides of their heads, larege [sic], sensitive noses and ears as large as a human foot. They are not easy to sneak up on, and quickly communicate to the rest of the herd that something is amis [sic].

Skeptic


 * They have eyes on the side of their heads so they can see in all directions and ears as big as feet for purposes of detecting possible attackers. One alerted animal easily transfers its concern to the others in the herd.

I'm getting bored of collating these. Need I go on?


 * the contextualisation of the sumo wrestler statistic

I'm surprised that you chose to reject the construction of the sumo statistics that prevailed quite happily for a month before your edit i.e. that it would be near impossible for an average individual to topple a sumo wrestler whose mass amounts to a measly 140 kg; given that, imagine how much harder it would be to topple a cow! In contrast, your edit strikes me as somewhat odd:


 * If we make the generous assumption that the person attempting to tip the cow is a sumo wrestler

Why?


 * with a mass of the order of 140 kg (310 lb), prima facie [sic] it is unlikely to be budged by even the most determined human or small group, though it may be annoyed

The relative mass of the two objects says nothing about the potential for one to topple the other. That is determined by the centre of gravity and the load-bearing area, two things you removed from the article during the course of your edit.


 * the traction issue

Wikipedia


 * In Tommy Boy Chris Farley in the lead role at once [sic] point attempts to tip a cow, stangin [sic] ancle [sic] deep in mud and cow pies, he is unable to perform the feat because he does not have enough traction between the ground and his feet, his feet slide out from under him, and the resulting commotion causes the stampeding cows to trample him.

Again, this appears to be another uncredited "bit" borrowed from another facetious (and funny) site:

Movie Physics Reviews


 * In another scene, Farley goes cow tipping. He is standing in deep mud and cow pies, pushing against a cow. However, the coefficient of friction is too low between his feet and the muck to provide enough force to push the cow over, so he slips and falls face first into the mud and cow pies. This is a very good example of realistic physics.

All very amusing, but what does it contribute to the exegesis or debunking of the urban legend?


 * and the dismissal of the University paper with one sentence


 * I didn't dismiss it. I edited it.
 * The sentence now strikes me as clumsy and clunky.
 * I introduced it to prevent further acts of comedy vandalism.
 * On that last point, I'll be the first to admit: I failed.


 * Also, I don't think the word 'Bovodynamics' is as appropriate as Zoology and physics

Fine. But "biology of cow tipping" is meaningless even by the deadpan standards of comedy pseudoscience.


 * I'd like to have a go at putting some of this back in, so please let me know your concerns so as to avoid ill feeling.

You already have, without waiting for my reply...

If people want to appreciate the humourous potential of the subject they have several fine links at their disposal as well as two movies to check out. Attempting to turn this article into a comedy free-for-all is a sure way of getting it bitchslapped into Gradgrindian sobriety by someone with a smaller sense of humour (or a bigger sense of gravitas) than either of us.

I like the move of the "two cows" joke into Sources and Analogues by the way.

regards, chocolateboy 18:20, 27 May 2004 (UTC)


 * OK, thanks for that - I had not actually intended the revision to be a standup gag - but appreciate your concern at overplaying the comedy. Feel free to go at the revision I made, or revert it if you like, I don't want to edit war over it, and got carried away before giving you a chance to reply ;). Re the Sumo wrestler, I had not imagined that the comparison was with Sumo wrestlers as things which should be tipped over, I was envisioning a sumo wrestler using his high mass in motion to create greater momentum for cow tipping. The greater the mass of the tipper, assuming they are moving, the greater the force that will be applied to the tippee, so to speak. I thought that a refridgerator was a more appropriate analogy since it more closely approximates a cows footprint, and I for one have engaged in fridge-tipping when moving house and trying to shift furniture. It is no easy task. Your mention that the University Paper 'can be dismissed' seemed a little brief - I tried to encorporate the central thesis of the paper, that the cow does not have to be moved as a dead weight, but rather acts as a lever system - I did not see any rebuttals of this.
 * Anyhow, don't want to cause too much annoyance - revert it, or edit it mercilessly - it was something frivilous and lightweight to relieve stress after dealing with EnergyBone on Iraq and Sept 11. All the best, Mark Richards 19:17, 27 May 2004 (UTC)

Java game
It's probably not encyclopedic, but there is an excellent java game on the subject, the awesome Udder Insanity. Worth it for the sound effects alone. -- John Fader 18:25, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I've removed the image
It had nothing to do with cow tipping. I've replaced it with a picture of a cow. If we had a photo of people actually attempting to tip a cow, it would be best, although that would be difficult to arrange. Meelar (talk) 00:32, May 4, 2005 (UTC)

Thats fine - I didn't expect it to last up there as long as it did -- the only reason I liked it was that it showed the article was humourous, your version is much better --Davelane 15:05, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

It isn't an urban legend
My art teacher did it while he was at university, it would be a student, wouldn't it? [[User:Differentgravy|Differentgravy]

To add to this my geography teacher also claim’s to have done it in his youth, which is likely since he was raised on a cattle farm. Bag 09:01, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Looking at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urban_legend Cow Tipping doesn't fit the definition of an urban legend or urban myth. Among other things, it lacks the "friend of a friend" component. I know two people from Ohio who reported to me that they personally have attempted more than once to tip a cow in concert with friends. I can't remember if they claimed the cow actually tipped, but I recall they said they'd do this in the dark and that once they were chased by a bull they angered. Shouldn't the "urban myth" terminology in the article be changed to something else? JimmyTheSaint 18:51, 24 June 2006 (UTC)


 * It very much is not. I've done it many times, along with quite a few friends. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.90.217.245 (talk • contribs).

A common practice is to wind rope around the animal's feet to restrict movement. Anchoring the legs greatly changes the physics of tipping.

Cow tipping isn't an urban legend. It's a pastime of bored rural kids, myself included back in the day. It helps if the cows are sleeping on an inclined pasture, i.e. hills, and yes, some do sleep standing up. Anyone who doesn't think it is physically possible for a human to tip over a cow has obviously never done fifteen years of farm and garden chores everyday of their lives. Pay for a gym membership?? are you crazy...just do hard manual labor and the muscles and stamina abound...We 'farm plowboys' are very capable of tipping cows and other feats of strength thank yu very much. Cow tipping is possible and has been done. I am witness to that. klrt
 * My Advanced Physics teacher taught the class that women have more ribs than men. "A teacher told me this" is no defense against the idea being an urban legend. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 65.243.47.130 (talk) 21:20, 8 December 2006 (UTC).

Genius!
It's probably a waste of space in the talk page, but I just wanted to add that whomever added the subtitle "An unsuspecting victim" to the photo is a genius. It had me cracking for about fifteen minutes.


 * I agree completely!


 * Atlant 12:58, 9 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Same here! --perelly 11:09, 29 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Superior service. Definitely deserves a big tip. --Shirahadasha 03:06, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Cow tipping is not an urban myth...it's a pasttime for really bored rural kids....myself included back in the day. it helps to have cows that graze and sleep on inclining pastures...i.e. hills, and yes, it is possible for one person to tip over a cow this way...maybe the ones who don't think it is physically possible for humans to tip over cows have never had to get their 'exercise' by doing fifteen years of farm chores everyday of their lives. that's some muscle and stamina building, my friends. We "farm plowboys" are capable of tipping over cows and I am witness to that. klrt

delusion zone
why is the article allowed to survive in this state? it apparently gets a POV pass by badly impersonating sardonic writing. most of the article is overt advocacy of a point of view (case making), beginning with an unsourced, ethereal claim that "[t]here is no evidence [for cow tipping as described,] aside from (mostly unreliable) eyewitness reports". what is a "(mostly unreliable) eyewitness" report? what about the part that is reliable? weasel words.

i don't think cows can be tipped either, but this is hardly an article that meets wikipedia policy/guidelines/standards for clarity, neutrality, or good writing. the second paragraph, for example, is badly written, pretend-intellectual humoro-babble for the sole purpose of setting up the inclusion of the cutesy, unnecessary phrase "precarious ruminants". the refrigerator example is strained, nowhere mentioning center of gravity. rather, it encourages a lower center of gravity than an honest attempt to simulate a cow would have, while making sure to reduce the lever. that's just the start. i would hack/slash my way through the thing, but i can tell from the history that it's the pet of some watching worshipers.

i hope nobody involved in creating/preserving this article ever marks anything at wikipedia as POV, original research, or unencyclopedic. wikipedia is not the farm team for the wannabe dave barry squad. and yes, that includes the useless pic caption. the prime criterion of a wikipedia article element is not how funny you think it is. SaltyPig 21:58, 9 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Maybe this article is here mostly for fun (as well as being a way to document a phenomenon that people certainly talk about, even if no one actually does it). And if that doesn't please you, perhaps you should just visit any of the hundreds of thousands of other articles in the encyclopedia?


 * Atlant 00:03, 10 September 2005 (UTC)


 * maybe you have it the wrong way around. SaltyPig 01:47, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

Do cows sleep when standing up?
There seems to be some confusion over whether cattle sleep whilst standing up. As somebody who has grown up around cattle, it seems to me that they lie down to doze, but then again they could be taking short naps whilst standing. Does anybody know of a good source that gives the skinny on this important part of bovine behaviour?--Fergie 10:53, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

In Answer to the above, although i cannot completely confirm it, one of my old teachers who was brought up on a dairy farm, informs me that they do indeed actually sleep standing up, they instead lock there legs by some means, and i have no reason to disbelieve this. Although i cant be sure this is the same for all cows. Bag 23:03, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Cows do NOT sleep standing up. Growing up on a dairy farm, I can guarantee you that cows sleep lying down. Every dairy and beef farmer I've ever spoken to has never seen a cow sleep standing up. It's completely untrue. --buckeyes1186 04:36, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

As a man who currently lives on a farm of Red Cross and Angus cattle, I can testify that they lie down to doze whenever possible. I have never witnessed one sleep standing up, even in corral.

I lived on a beef farm when I was a kid, and never saw a cow sleep standing up. They lie down. (I've never seen one sleep leaning against the side of a barn, a tree or any other vertical structure either.) A Google image search for "Sleeping cow" also results in page after page of recumbent cows for those without a family cow to check on ;). Squeezeweasel 16:05, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Physics of Cow Tipping
Perhaps you should eliminate the link to the physics calculations done at UBC. The calculations make no sense at all. Here is the correct calculation based on the data from the article: mass of cow = 700 kg = m_c

width of stance = 0.63 m. = w

height of cow = 1.43 m. = h

mass of person = 67 kg = m_p

number of people = unknown = n

The sum of the torques about one side must be zero. There is a torque exerted by the weight force of the earth on the cow and a torque exerted by the person or people on the cow. There is no torque exerted by the normal force of the ground on one side of the cow because it acts at the pivot point, while the normal force exerted on the other side goes to zero as the cow begins to tip so it exerts no torque.

We assume that the people exert forces equal to their weight. The lever arm for the weight force is half the width of the cow while the maximum lever arm for the person can be obtained from the pythagorean theorem. We assume that the people exert forces at a location and direction to maximize torque.

(m_c*g)*(w/2) = n(m_p*g)*sqrt(w^2 + h^2)

n = (m_c*g)*(w/2)/[(m_p*g)*sqrt(w^2 + h^2)]

n = (m_c)*(w/2)/[(m_p)*sqrt(w^2 + h^2)]

n = (700)*(0.63/2)/[67*sqrt(0.63^2 + 1.43^2)]

n = 2

-Erik Jensen

Refer to The Heathers
At the risk of rushing in where fools etc...

Added reference to the cow tipping scene in the film 'The Heathers'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.12.178.125 (talk • contribs)


 * It's Heathers, not The Heathers. And it's where "angels" fear to tread, not "fools"; and it's already been discussed. Ctrl-F "Heathers".


 * chocolateboy 01:30, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Possibility that cow tipping may be achievable
Added reference to the letters in today's London Times, which I found of interest in that: a) They do not consider the cow itself to be a passive object (which seems to be a potential flaw in some of the previous arguments); and, b) They seem to indicate that the impossible may be possible.

If somebody can find an on-line link to these letters then that would be a useful addition!

-Pete M

BC link
I removed this becasue it was 404. If it coumes back, or an alternatie location is found, then relink, natch.
 * University of British Columbia - The Mechanics of Cow Tipping (PDF)

I also removed the reference to "lead" weights - POV! Rich  Farmbrough 10:35, 11 November 2005 (UTC)