Talk:Cowboy hat/Archive 1

string behind
"Against what many people believe, you should wear the hat with the string behind your head." Three comments: 1) This is poorly worded, and I can't figure out what it means. (Would a non-wearer of cowboy hats know what string is being referenced? And in what manner: hanging down, or looped around the brim, or what? And in what contexts, and by whom?) 2) This is a general article, and at no other point delves into prescriptions about hat-wearing; the addition is out of place. 3) Opinion if I ever heard it. Deleting. YiddishSoul 17:15, 3 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the fix. Basically, for those who care, "stampede strings" are included on some cowboy hats, particularly for little kids, but modern real cowboy hats rarely have them.  Montanabw (talk) 20:54, 6 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Despite what Montanabw has to say, "included on some cowboy hats, particularly for little kids.."


 * In "The Cowboy Hat," book by William Reynolds and "Hatter," Rich Rand.


 * Page 17 shows "Cowboy Historian," Phil Spangerberger wearing a "wind string.


 * Page 21 shows a hat with a "wind string"


 * Page 28 "working cowboy," with a "wind string"


 * Page 29 cowgirl with "wind string"


 * Page 30 "stampede string," in relaxed position on cowboy at work


 * Page 44-45 beaded "stampede string"


 * Page 51 stampede string


 * Page 58 The Lone Ranger's black "chin strap," "characteristic of the period"


 * http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/ce/Moore-LoneRanger.jpg


 * Page 90 stampede string


 * http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/fa/Yakima_Canutt_stuntman.jpg


 * And the "cowboy hat," on my head.


 * Maybe chin straps, stampede, barbiquejo, wind, strings are not just for kids anymore?

-oo0(GoldTrader)0oo- (talk) 10:19, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Merger proposal for Ten-gallon hat
The information in the article for ten-gallon hats is nearly identical to the information in this article and should therefore be merged into this one. A redirect should then be placed in Ten-gallon hat to this page. Cumulus Clouds 22:31, 27 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I'd be OK with that, but let's leave the merge proposal up for a week or two to see if anyone over at ten gallon hat cares. Montanabw (talk) 04:20, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Bent?
Why are the sides bent up in the photo of the working cowboys? Wouldn't that reduce their use at keeping out the sun and rain? -- Jeandré, 2008-03-08t06:18z


 * Curving the sides a little would, in theory, direct rain off the front and back, and the effect on shading is negligible, as it is the face that most needs to be shaded. But more to the point, there are fads in cowboy hat shaping, and curved sides look "cool" ;-)     Montanabw (talk) 09:24, 8 March 2008 (UTC)


 * One wonders why there aren't images of actual "cowboys" from the 19thC. The bending comes from the original European hat styles that gave rise to this popular American one. It's a fashion that has been popular for at least 400 years. OzoneO (talk) 10:20, 6 October 2008 (UTC)


 * There are some historical cowboy images in wikimedia commons. I suppose when someone has the time to expand the article and discuss history, with better footnoting, it would be nice to add some.  There are so very many styles, though...at one time, folks could tell where a cowboy was from-- sometimes even which ranch -- by the way they creased and wore their hat.  Because of that, it would be important not to actually bog down the article with all the different styles. I've hesitated to expand the article absent getting some good source material for footnotes.   Montanabw (talk) 20:45, 7 October 2008 (UTC)


 * "as it is the face that most needs to be shaded."When traveling north in the afternoon, it is the left side of the head that needs most to be shaded.-oo0(GoldTrader)0oo- (talk) 22:15, 22 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, you are seldom traveling in a straight line in the backcountry, and if you ride north in the afternoon, actually the sun is usually somewhat south of west until almost sunset! Think of the hat as an eyeshade, sort of like a glorified ball cap!  LOL!   Montanabw (talk) 06:54, 23 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I guess it just depends where you are. The sun comes in on my left side and my hat is totally useless to provide any shade "what so ever," to the side of my face as long as it's on my head.-oo0(GoldTrader)0oo- (talk) 22:32, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

=Questions for contributors= I feel like I am threading on scared ground here. So I will make my comments here for a few days to get a response before I risk screwing up the Holy Grail.

Unanswered questions I would like to see someone address.-oo0(GoldTrader)0oo- (talk)


 * Nothing sacred here other than to avoid perpetuating myths of the west and urban legends. No problem from me with the addition of quality material, but I will delete junk.  So how about drafting some content suitable for the article?  As a fourth-generation cowboy hat wearer, I am not a "student" -- I am a user.  So, if you want to discuss every human being who ever wore a hat, fine, just do it right per the Wikepedia MOS. Please read WP:V before you start.  Or put your proposed drafts here and we can work on them prior to putting them into the article.  Remember: Assume good faith.   Montanabw (talk) 05:31, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Sos hatter
Does anybody know a hatter - hatmaker. This has got to be the worst, most incomplete entry in all of Wikidome. I am a student of cowboy hats, and I found absolutely nothing here.-oo0(GoldTrader)0oo- (talk) 21:41, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Edits
Cowboy hats were being used on the "open range," long before it was safe to have ranches and farms, because of wild Indians running around. So, we need to include the complete life of the cowboy hat, not just some localized version at some isolated point in time heavily weighted by Indiana Jones and Urban Cowboy costumes.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2b/Cowboy.jpg

The cowboy hat is a defining piece of attire for ranch and farm workers 

Why are no hats named for farming, if it is a defining piece of attire for farm workers?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8b/StetsonHatFortHoodArmy.jpg

What about the gunslingers, outlaws and gamblers that give many of the styles their names?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/Great_train_robbery_still.jpg

in the western and southern United States, western Canada and northern Mexico, for country-western singers, and for participants in the North American rodeo circuit.

Do I have to explain this one?

The first Cowboys in the United States were Paniolo's. Early photo's show these Cowboys wore fur-felt, broad brimmed hats, with flowered Lei Headbands. What about Hawaii, where is Hawaii?

http://www.kamuela.com/pps/paniolo.htm

Stetson was selling hats in Japan in 1877, did significant business with Hawaii by 1890.

What about if someone had one of these head coverings in New England, would it have been recognized as a cowboy hat?

What about other rodeo circuits?

-oo0(GoldTrader)0oo- (talk) 10:26, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Color
Were the original cowboy hats pure, undyed, Beaver fur-felt?

Is a 100% Beaver hat lighter in weight?

In the beginning they were also marketed in Black and about 3 shades of brown.-oo0(GoldTrader)0oo- (talk) 08:40, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Styles
What do Cowboy hats mean by their different shapes?

What effect do you suppose the geographical locations had on the evolution of the various styles?

How was the wet country style developed?

How is the desert style different?-oo0(GoldTrader)0oo- (talk) 08:41, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

The rolled brim was preferred, at first, in colder Northern climes as a rain gutter. It smaller brim was OK where there was less sun. It has since become the 20-th century "cowboy" hat. I, though, prefer my big flat brim  working outside in the 106 degree summers in Tucson.68.231.189.108 (talk) 00:27, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

The Desert hat, for the South Western US, was usually a wide, flat brim for shade, with a high  crown to dissipate hot air. Based on the Mexican Sombrero.68.231.189.108 (talk) 00:27, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Trail dust
What does a new cowboy hat say about the wearer?

A new, clean, pristine, Cowboy hat seems kind of silly. The cowboy hat symbolizes a "Way of life," by being a functional long-term appendage to its user. How can a new in the box, store bought, Stetson have a "reckless and rugged cowboy aura?"

A new hat cannot display a history of this feeling without showing many years of use. Hat makers may try to paint on this distressing, impression, but in the end it just shouts "phony."

-oo0(GoldTrader)0oo- (talk) 11:18, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Movie hats
The greatest homage to the cowboy hat on film is probably the opening scenes to "Once Upon a Time in the West."-oo0(GoldTrader)0oo- (talk) 08:41, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Hatbands
Does the hatband have a structural function?

Yes, Originally to adjust the size.

Why is the bow always on the left side?

To stay out of the way of the sword.

Why two hatbands?-oo0(GoldTrader)0oo- (talk) 08:42, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Stampede strings
What is the proper etiquette for stampede strings?

Length, use, purpose?-oo0(GoldTrader)0oo- (talk) 08:44, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Fitting
How are cowboy hats fitted to a persons size and face shape?

Flat part of brim should be as wide as your face.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f8/Billykid.jpg

-oo0(GoldTrader)0oo- (talk) 08:42, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Comparing
1. Brim: What is width of the brim?

2. Crown: What is height of the crown at front?


 * What is height of crown at rear?

3. Crease: What kind of crease?

4. Felt: How much Beaver is in the felt?

5. Size: What is the measurement around hatband?

6. Profile: What is the side view.-oo0(GoldTrader)0oo- (talk) 08:44, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Straw
There is an urban legend about straw hats for summer and felt for winter. By that standard Hawaii would only have straw hats. But ancient photographs show that the cowboys in Hawaii wore lei wrapped, felt cowboy hats just like everywhere else.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e6/Strawhat.jpg

-oo0(GoldTrader)0oo- (talk) 08:42, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Straw hats are nicer for summer, as they are cooler/lighter. But if you need your hat to Last, in rough service/all weather, you need Felt.68.231.189.108 (talk) 15:12, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Evolution
The cowboy hat has had an interesting and unmentioned evolution. The original popularity had to have been bolstered by Buffalo Bill Cody, Tom Mix and later entertainment stars.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/35/Cody-Buffalo-Bill-LOC.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6d/Tommixportrait.jpg

Did I see Western movie stars even mentioned in this thread?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/fa/ClintEastwood.JPG

Why did 50's Tv stars have flat tops?

Where did the "Cattlemen," style originate.

Why is the Gus style so popular today?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/5c/Robert_Duvall_in_Lonesome_Dove.jpg

Did the Tom Horn style originate with Horn or was it a Tom Mix crown later used by a movie Tom Horn?-oo0(GoldTrader)0oo- (talk) 08:36, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Tom Mix

Motivation
''most people wear them for aesthetic value as a part of Western lifestyle. ''

Where did this come from, how do you know what most cowboy hat wearers do?-oo0(GoldTrader)0oo- (talk) 02:37, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Photo
 Working cowboys wearing cowboy hats 

It does not look like they are working to me. The shot is not a good picture of a cowboy hat. The one with the President was better.-oo0(GoldTrader)0oo- (talk) 02:42, 26 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Yeah, they ARE in working attire, even if they look like they are taking a break. I actually was the one who originally put in the Reagan photo, lost the battle to keep it.  So I agree with you, but OTOH, I see no reason not to have both images.  Like I say, rather than asking a bunch of questions no one has time to answer, just find some good sources on the history of the cowboy hat and feel free to draft up some stuff to add.   Montanabw (talk) 04:40, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Here is the picture that belongs here. http://www.randhats.com/images/history/boss_plains.gif -oo0(GoldTrader)0oo- (talk)

Farmers
 The cowboy hat is a defining piece of attire for farm and ranch workers

I just do not think this is true. The hat itself speaks of the image of a cowboy. It does not now, never has, never will define, a sod buster. -oo0(GoldTrader)0oo- (talk) 09:04, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Locations
Remove  in the western and southern United States, western Canada and northern Mexico, for country-western singers, and for participants in the North American rodeo circuit.

Keep '' It is recognized around the world as part of Old West cowboy lore. ''

The Cowboy hat identified people as being associated with the cattle industry. (Reynolds) -oo0(GoldTrader)0oo- (talk) 09:04, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

History
'' The concept of a broad-brimmed hat with a high crown worn by a rider on horseback came primarily from the tradition of the Mexican vaquero. ''

How do we know what influenced young Stetson. He knew the history of hats back to the beginning. He made a living copying other hatters hats. How can someone claim to know what a hat makers son was thinking about hats?

Remove  However, the cowboy hat as known today has many antecedents to its design, including Mexican hats such as the sombrero..."

Was that a Sombrero from London?

Look, whom are we trying to impress?

John Batterson Stetson invented the Cowboy hat and there is no way of telling all of the influences that fell on a Hatters son from back east.

People moving west wore top hats and derbies, remains of Civil War headgear, sailor hats and everything else.

Stetson paid royalties for "Boss of the Plains," to someone in England who had the original design that had nothing to do with Sombreros.-oo0(GoldTrader)0oo- (talk) 09:04, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Born 1865
"The cowboy hat is truly an example of form following function .. today's cowboy hat has remained basically unchanged in construction and design since the first one was created in 1865."(Reynolds)

Remove  the various designs of wide-brimmed hat worn by farmers and stockmen in the eastern United States, as well as the design used by the United States Cavalry.

How many farms and ranch's do you suppose were out west before Custer charged the little big horn in his Stetson. The hat came first. -oo0(GoldTrader)0oo- (talk) 09:04, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Cost
People use to spend a months wages on a good Stetson. He sold his first used Stetson, for a quarter ounce of Gold.(Carlson) -oo0(GoldTrader)0oo- (talk) 09:04, 26 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Some people still do. At O'Farrell Santa Fe you can easily spend $10,000 on just one hat, although they do offer a wide selection priced around $1000.  --Una Smith (talk) 22:44, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Style
Tall crown to keep head cool in summer, and warm in winter. Wide brim to shield the eyes and neck from sun, wind and rain. (Christian)

The Stetson called "Boss of the plains," was sold with a rounded top and flat brim. Users would customize their hats by creasing the crown and or rolling the brim as well as adding a hatband. At first they came in Natural, later Black, and shades of Brown.

Keep '' The shape of a cowboy hat once depended very much on the region from which it originated. At one time a person could tell where a working cowboy was from simply looking at the crease in his hat. ''

Remove  John Batterson Stetson is credited with designing and marketing the first "cowboy" hat in the USA, which he called the "Boss of the Plains.

Was it even the United States at that time?

Redundant '' In the early days, the cowboy hat was valued for being functional, with the wide brim protecting working cowboys from the sun and rain.

It could be used to signal others, fan a campfire, or pull water out of a stream.'' Remove  Today, while the hats can still serve these purposes, 

Today is used for these purposes

Remove '' most people wear them for aesthetic value as a part of Western lifestyle. ''

Who says?

I do not believe it, what a bunch of bull.

Western lifestyle???

 A cowboy hat even appears on the flag of Calgary, Alberta, where "white hat ceremonies" are held by the civic government to welcome visiting dignitaries - the traditional gift from the city's mayor to foreign guests is a white cowboy hat.

So?

'' Today, classic designs are available in muted colors such as black and various shades of beige, brown and gray, notably a warm light gray known as "silver belly". Styles for men and women are virtually identical, though women's cowboy hats are available in a much wider variety of colors, including bright, vivid shades.''

So are most automobiles, what is the significance of this in a cowboy hat?

Cowboy hats are available in all colors. Which means exactly what? -oo0(GoldTrader)0oo- (talk) 00:15, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Ten gallon hat
'' Ten gallon" hat

"Certain styles of cowboy hat have been called a "ten gallon" hat, and it is a common belief that the term arose because a hat could, in theory, be used to carry water. ''

What do they mean in theory, felt has been waterproofed for centuries.

'' However, the expression does not actually refer to use of the hat as a container. A "ten-gallon" hat in fact holds less than a gallon of water. There are competing theories for the origin of the term, but it is possibly a corruption of the Spanish term tan galan meaning "so gallant", a reference to the headwear of the upper classes (as opposed to the more common sombrero), or a corruption of "galón", or galloon, a type of narrow braided trimming around the crown, possibly a style adapted by the vaqueros. When Texas cowboys misunderstood the word "galón" for "gallon", the popular, though incorrect, legend was born.''

"It came on the scene around 1925."(Bender)

'' Another possible explanation is that it is a reference to the practice in the vaquero tradition of the galón, a narrow braid, being awarded based on the expertise of the vaquero. Ten galóns were the highest recognition of vaquero proficiency. These bands were wrapped around the crown of the hat, one on top of the other. If a vaquero, therefore, wore a ten galón hat, he was a top expert at his work. South Texas cowboys knew that wearing a ten galón hat showed cowboy prowess and bragged of wearing the ten "gallon" hat. Others hearing this misunderstood and the misinterpretations grew over time.''

No references, no comment.

A 10-Gallon hat is a slang term for a cowboy hat. -oo0(GoldTrader)0oo- (talk) 09:04, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

I could not find anything online about these gallon ribbon's. What do they look like? Who gives them out?

Why is ten such a big deal if no one has a picture of them. The ten gallon hat came out about the time Tom Mix and the folks over in Hollywood. Had those outrageously large cowboy hats made.

Millions of cowboy hats were made in the 19th century. What is the significance of some movie term from 1925 on a cowboy hat?

Everybody is trying to get Mexico in on this deal, but it just does not hold water!

Why can't we use the explanation for ten gallon hats on the Stetson page. They don't seem to be trying to tie us up with Mexico.

I can't find anything to back up this ten ribbons on the hat theory.-oo0(GoldTrader)0oo- (talk) 14:18, 27 January 2009 (UTC) The Stetson page says

Singing Cowboys and Ten-Gallon Hats
In the 19th century and first half of the 20th century, a hat was an indispensable item in every man’s wardrobe. Stetson focused on expensive, high-quality hats that represented both a real investment for the working cowboy and statement of success for the city dweller.

Early on, Stetson hats became associated with legends of the West, including “Buffalo Bill” Cody, Calamity Jane, Will Rogers, and Annie Oakley. It is said that George Custer rode into the Battle of Little Big Horn wearing a Stetson. Later on, celluloid cowboys were quick to adopt the Stetson; many were drawn to the largest and whitest models available.

Texans were known for their preference for the ‘Ten Gallon’ model, possibly so named for its enormous crown which at least appeared to be able to hold ten gallons were it to be dipped into a stream and used as a pail. An early Stetson advertising image, a painting of a cowboy dipping his hat into a stream to provide water for his horse symbolized the Cowboy hat as an essential part of a stockman’s gear and was later featured inside every western style hat. -oo0(GoldTrader)0oo- (talk) 14:29, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

The Ten Gallon (ten galleon) was based on how many Spanish galleon coins went edgewise  around the Brim, next to the Crown, not around the hatband. This would have only indicated Hat, and Head size. Also, it is Very Old, not started in  "1925". I ask this be changed.68.231.189.108 (talk) 00:21, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Stetsons=RCMP?
This Non-Sequitor mends be changed, too. It is a common myth. "Stetson" is a Make of a very good, very expensive hat; like saying "Cadillac". Not all Stetsons are four-creased-Campaign hats, like the RCMP and Marine DI's and the US army wore for many years. If Stetson made them, fine. It is like saying all "convertibles" are "Fords".

Plus, old photos of the ninteenth century show almost exclusively flat-brimmed open-crown or creased in front "Montana Peaks" or four creases like a Campaign Hat, used by real cowhands on the range, not in town. The four-creasers were based on the Mexican sombrero, one of the coolest-wearing hats made; short of a pith helmet, that provides air space around the head. The Campaign Hat was a copy of it, beginning in  1910.

Stetson emphasizes their hats' water-tightness with a logo of a cowboy watering his horse with one by dipping in a trough (not a stream). This may be another source of the Ten-Gallon=Water Capacity myth.68.231.189.108 (talk) 00:21, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Summery
Before the Stetson there was no cowboy hat. People wore a lot of different headwear. The finest hats back east were going for $2.00. It was a proud man who looked up and saw that tall stranger wearing his hat. Cowboys had no standard head piece. In fact in 1865 there were very few if any cowboys at all.

James B. Stetson a life long student of hats and hat making. Designed, tested, and built, combining form with function, a high-crowned, wide-brimmed, felt headpiece with a plain band. He called it the "Boss of the plains." It had a 6 inch crown with a seven inch brim. The hat was waterproof so that it could be used to haul water.(truecowboy.com)

The "Boss," was based on European designs that probably go back to the Mongol horsemen, adapted to the harsh and rigor of the American West.(Bender) Stetson paid royalties to a European company that had previous claims on the basic hat design. Stetson was the first to market the "Boss of the plains," to Cowboys, making it a true Cowboys hat when sales took off.

Later as the "Wild West," was popularized by Bill Cody, Tom Mix and Hollywood, the Cowboy hat came to symbolize the Wild and Woolly individuality of the new frontier.

-oo0(GoldTrader)0oo- (talk) 09:04, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

=Mad Hatters= "Mad as a hatter" As mercury was used in the process of curing felt used in some hats, it was impossible for hatters to avoid inhaling the mercury fumes given off during the hat making process. Hatters and mill workers often suffered mercury poisoning as residual mercury vapor caused neurological damage including confused speech and distorted vision. It was not unusual then for hatters to appear disturbed or mentally confused, many died early as a result of mercury poisoning.

Principal symptoms of mercury poisoning are "excessive timidity, diffidence, increasing shyness, loss of self-confidence, anxiety, and a desire to remain unobserved and unobtrusive.

Few people who use the phrase today realize that there’s a story of human suffering behind it; the term derives from an early industrial occupational disease. Felt hats were once very popular in North America and Europe; an example is the top hat. The best sorts were made from beaver fur, but cheaper ones used furs such as rabbit instead.

A complicated set of processes was needed to turn the fur into a finished hat. With the cheaper sorts of fur, an early step was to brush a solution of a mercury compound — usually mercurous nitrate — on to the fur to roughen the fibers and make them mat more easily, a process called carroting because it made the fur turn orange. Beaver fur had natural serrated edges that made this unnecessary, one reason why it was preferred, but the cost and scarcity of beaver meant that other furs had to be used.

Whatever the source of the fur, the fibres were then shaved off the skin and turned into felt; this was later immersed in a boiling acid solution to thicken and harden it. Finishing processes included steaming the hat to shape and ironing it. In all these steps, hatters working in poorly ventilated workshops would breathe in the mercury compounds and accumulate the metal in their bodies.

We now know that mercury is a cumulative poison that causes kidney and brain damage. Physical symptoms include trembling (known at the time as hatter’s shakes), loosening of teeth, loss of co-ordination, and slurred speech; mental ones include irritability, loss of memory, depression, anxiety, and other personality changes. This was called mad hatter syndrome.

It’s been a very long time since mercury was used in making hats, and now all that remains is a relic phrase that links to a nasty period in manufacturing history. But mad hatter syndrome remains as a description of the symptoms of mercury poisoning. http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-mad2.htm

It would also be remiss to leave out the fact that mercury, which we now know to be highly toxic, was used in the manufacture of hats. Hatters commonly suffered from 'hatter's shakes', a form of nerve damage which gave symptoms similar to Parkinson's Disease and which is still known today as 'Mad Hatter's Syndrome'. A neurotoxicologist correspondent of mine has put forward the view that hatters could have been mad in either or both of the 'angry' or 'insane' senses. He states that "Mercury exposure can cause aggressiveness, mood swings, and anti-social behavior. It is therefore likely that the mercury in hat making did lead to 'mad' hatters both in terms of rationality and plain old grumpiness." http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/mad-as-a-hatter.html

Are you mad as a hatter?

The term "Mad as a hatter" comes from the old practice of using mercury to put a special finish on headwear. Over-exposure to the mercury in this process would indeed lead to insanity. However, because of the obvious medical hazards, mercury is no longer used for that process. http://www.custom-hatter.com/faq.html-oo0(GoldTrader)0oo- (talk) 07:14, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

=Worksheet=

The Cowboy hat is a light-weight, high-crowned, wide-brimmed, waterproof, fur-felt, head covering. Originally All the hats were made the same. They had a rounded six inch crown with a flat seven inch brim. A tall crown provided insulation, the wide brim, shade. A plain hatband was fitted to adjust head size. Hats came in pure, undyed, Beaver fur-felt, later black, and more shades of brown.

Cowboys customized their hats by creasing the crown and or rolling the brim as well as adding another hatband and or wind strings.

"Today's cowboy hat has remained basically unchanged in construction and design since the first one was created in 1865 by J.B. Stetson."

History
"Cowboy hats go back to almost the inception of the cowboy himself." The concept of a broad-brimmed hat with a high crown worn by a rider on horseback came primarily from the  Mongolian horsemen in the 13th century. The Spaniards developed a flat-topped Mexican sombrero, which they brought to Mexico. These were modified in the tradition of the vaquero into the round-crowed sombrero seen today.

No one knows when cowboy's got a hat named after them. American cowboys wore floppy-brimmed, high-crowned hats long before the invention of the cowboy hat. Westerners had no standard head wear. People moving west wore formal top hats, derbies, remains of Civil War headgear, sailor hats and everything else.

James B. Stetson a life long student of hats and hat making, designed, tested, and built, combining form with function, what he called the "Boss of the plains."

"It had the unique capability, even in the early years, to identify its wearer as someone associated with the West .."

The shape of a cowboy hats crown and brim are often modified by the wearer for fashion and to protect against weather. Because of the ease of personalization a person can sometimes tell where a cowboy hat was from, simply looking at the crease in the crown, right down to which ranch.

A similar hat was previously being produced by Christy's in England who were making large brimmed, felt hats, for plantation workers in the West Indies. But Stetson was the first to market the "Boss of the plains," to Cowboys, making it a true "Cowboy's hat."

"Merely by placing his new cowboy hat on his head, he became part of a growing fraternity of cowmen who carried with them an image and aura intrinsically linked to the Wild West."

When Stetson started sending the highest quality hats west called the "Boss of the plains," selling for an ounce of Gold each. The headband located inside of the hat bore his name.

"Within a decade the name John B. Stetson became synonymous with the word "hat," in every corner and culture west of the Mississippi."

Later as the "Wild West," was popularized by Bill Cody, Tom Mix and Hollywood, the Cowboy hat came to symbolize the mystique of the Wild West.

-oo0(GoldTrader)0oo- (talk) 14:25, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

"Ten gallon" hat
Certain styles of cowboy hat have been called a "ten gallon" hat, and it is a common belief that the term which arose because a hat could, in theory, be used to carry water.

However, the expression does not actually refer to use of the hat as a container. A "ten-gallon" hat in fact holds less than a gallon of water, and LEAKS! There are competing theories for the origin of the term, but it is possibly a corruption of the Spanish term tan galan meaning "so gallant", a reference to the headwear of the upper classes (as opposed to the more common sombrero), or a corruption of "galón", or galloon, a type of narrow braided trimming around the crown, possibly a style adapted by the vaqueros. When Texas cowboys misunderstood the word "galón" for "gallon", the popular, though incorrect, legend was born. Another possible explanation is that it is a reference to the practice in the vaquero tradition of the galón, a narrow braid, being awarded based on the expertise of the vaquero. Ten galóns were the highest recognition of vaquero proficiency. These bands were wrapped around the crown of the hat, one on top of the other. If a vaquero, therefore, wore a ten galón hat, he was a top expert at his work. South Texas cowboys knew that wearing a ten galón hat showed cowboy prowess and bragged of wearing the ten "gallon" hat. Others hearing this misunderstood and the misinterpretations grew over time.

"The term ten-gallon did not originally refer to the holding capacity of the hat, but to the width of a Mexican sombrero hatband, and is more closely related to this unit of measurement by the Spanish than to the water-holding capacity of a Stetson." The term came into use about 1925.

Comments on rewrite
Hi Gold, there was some good work you did, but there is also some material that I know to be inaccurate, some of which I flagged, some I rewrote (check to see that it remains consistent with the source, however), and generally, well, take a peek and if I slaughtered it too bad, we can just keep plugging away. For one thing, I can guarantee you from personal experience that felt hats -- at least the modern variety -- are most definitely NOT waterproof, and I have the misshapen heap of felt to prove it! (though that IS, I suppose, original research! LOL!!!  Montanabw (talk) 04:44, 4 February 2009 (UTC). Follow up:  I kept most of what you had, though rearranged a lot of it to group like ideas together.  I cut a couple of quotations that seemed excessive or redundant, and I redid the references to a structure that is working well on the bigger articles, where a source is used multiple times.  The only thing I flat out cut was the reference to hats selling for an "ounce of gold each."  That quote seems to be taken out of context, as, for example, there was no Gold Rush in Texas and cowboys weren't known for being flush, even in California...most everything else was just rearranged or rephrased.  If I did a rephrase that totally is out of whack with what the source actually said, just holler and we'll get it fixed.  I like your changes, but I did restore some images. Montanabw (talk) 06:03, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Cowboy Hat Omissions
> I have the misshapen heap of felt to prove it! <

Well I don’t carry water to a horse. I heard wool hats fall apart. But I have worn mine in the shower to crease it like Tom Mix suggested. I use it for protection in the rain. And what could be better in the wet than Beaver!!

So, my own personal experience shows that a high quality cowboy sheds water.

“For an all weather hat - you can't beat a pure beaver cowboy hat. Light, stiff, and fabulous looking it'll shed what ever comes it's way.”

http://www.thelastbestwest.com/popups/cowboy_hat_facts.html

“ where a source is used multiple times.” I did not know how to do it.

“The only thing I flat out cut was the reference to hats selling for an "ounce of gold each."

My quoted reference said the Boss sold for $20.00. In those days Texas or not. A twenty dollar gold piece was one "once of gold." That compares to how much hat an ounce of Gold will buy today. Direct comparison. The price has come down.

Anywhere you look you will see Stetson sold his first, used Cowboy Hat for a five dollar Gold piece. Which was, and still is a quarter ounce of Gold. Just under $250.00 today. A lot of used Stetsons go for that.

You did a great job, keep it up. But I still have a problem with that opening. If it stays, Hawaii has to go in there with the Paniolo’s. But for a hat that is worn everywhere putting that regional stuff in does not make any sense at all. Everywhere is all over.

The first Cowboys in the United States were Paniolo's. Early photo's show these Cowboys wore fur-felt, broad brimmed hats, with flowered Lei Headbands. What about Hawaii, where is Hawaii?

http://www.kamuela.com/pps/paniolo.htm

You left out the Texas rangers, the mounted police, Connecticut state troopers etc. You cannot name every place or everyone. Senators, Presidents what a bunch of bull. Where are your references. Cowboys now a days wear baseball caps so they don’t get mistaken for truckers.

If the hat was defined in the 1880s how can it have been influenced by something that came along 25 years later? Either that source holds, or it doesn’t.

I see “boss,” pictures all over the web from the 1800’s why can’t we get some of those. The two guys on the horses are lame. They do not show the hat.

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f131/craiget/gusatwindow.jpg

I think we should show a “Boss,” a “Cattleman’s,” and a “Tom Mix Hat.”

What else can I do to help?-oo0(GoldTrader)0oo- (talk) 07:39, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Hatband
Headband = head size

Hatband is structural. On the Boss, which is the definition of a Cowboy, hat. They came in one size. The outside band was used to tighten it up.

“Southern and Northern cowboys had different hats. When Texans traveled north they found that their wide-brimmed hats didn't stick on their head with all the wind. The northern hats changed to be more narrow-brimmed and usually had a hatband of leather that was tightened to keep the hat in place.”

http://www.truecowboy.com/cowboyhat.php

-oo0(GoldTrader)0oo- (talk) 08:23, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Stetson lost sales because that resistol feature turned out to be a better sizing system than a string pulled at the back of your head.

http://www.culturedcowboy.com/hats/resistol/pages/ResistolFurFelts.htm

Materials
If you want to list all of the materials, I do not see why. If you want to list all of the inferior materials to the original Beaver then you left out Buffalo. Is that what we are suppose to me doing. Listing all the degradations to the original pure product?

-oo0(GoldTrader)0oo- (talk) 08:29, 4 February 2009 (UTC)


 * ==Hatband==

“They have a simple sweat band on the inside to stabilize the fit of the hat, and usually a small decorative hat band on the outside of the crown.” The first is structural. The second hatband is decorative. Maybe we can get a hatter to comment. If he hatband is 25 inches or so, how is that small?
 * ==Design==

Contradicts. It says the modern hat is different. No reference. Then it says the cowboy hat is unchanged with a reference.


 * ==“most often seen.”==

The ones I most often see are in silver belly or white. Do you want to list all of the colors people see hats in. This does not seem like the purpose of this to write a new description and advertisement for something that has been around for a hundred years. The Cowboy hat is what it has always been, not what it is becoming.-oo0(GoldTrader)0oo- (talk) 08:52, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Follow up

 * Hi Gold. I'm OK with content writing when I'm motivated to do the research, but on this article, given that my attention is mostly elsewhere, I'm better being the wordsmith, format fixer, ref reformatter, content questioner and general cleaner-upper.  I guess if you have an issue with something in there now, either tag it with  or  or use  to explain your concerns, rather than deleting or blanking stuff.  I can do the same.  Other than that, whatever you dig up, we can toss it around and get it into shape.  I reworked and rearranged some of your stuff, but overall I was pretty comfortable with what you found.


 * First off, if you can find photos you want to use, and they pass the wikimedia commons copyright stuff to be uploaded here, that's fine. I haven't the time nor motivation to go do any of that digging, but I do see the value in showing some style variations.  We can start a little gallery here on the talk page of what is out there and decide which images are best.  Use the  tags to place all the images in a thumbnail format, it's frowned upon in articles themselves, but OK for here.


 * Second, if you want to toss the Reagan image, I don't care, i was just looking for a good movie cowboy hat sort of thing to be a contrast to the working cowboys image. I'm personally no Reagan fan, but he actually DID know how to ride a horse and was at home in a cowboy hat.  We can use Tom Mix, Roy Rogers, whoever, no big deal.  But I see no reason to toss the other cowboy photo, it's not "lame," that's one of the looks out here in the modern west, for real, trust me.  And it's good article design to use images with people in them when it is appropriate, which I think it is here.  (And the image beats most of the other photos on wiki of people wearing cowboy hats)  The lead images that you kept, by the way, were taken by a person on wiki who also does professional photography specifically so we'd have a solid basic cowboy hat photos.


 * Third, If you want to draft sections on more kinds of hats, first do take a peek at what's already in the Stetson article, as there is some duplicative material there (they mention cavalry hats and the Mounties, for one thing). We are focusing here on the cowboy hat, not every broad-brimmed hat with a crease that exists.  Last I checked, almost ALL state troopers wear that "Smokey the Bear" hat that is a sort-of cowboy hat, but not really. (grin)  But once you look at the other hat articles.


 * Fourth, we can draft up stuff on various types and uses if you want, just has to be balanced per WP:UNDUE as for the Hawaii thing, see the cowboy article where there's a history on them. The Paniolo is not the "first" cowboy, the Mexican Vaquero was ("Paniolo" may well be a corruption of "Espanol" and it was vaqueros who came to Hawaii to teach cattle handling skills to the locals-- After all, the cow was not native to Hawaii) and remember, Spain and then Mexico controlled the southwestern US until the 1840s.


 * Next, if the source says twenty dollars, we say twenty dollars. To do more, like comparing it to gold, is to stretch the limits of WP:V. (What year specifically was gold $20 and ounce?  Was the the consistent price across the entire USA? You see the problem) If you want to point out that $20 was a lot of money in those days, a good comparison is not so much to gold, but to other items...a saddle, a pair of boots, etc...Of course, there ARE hats today that are selling for several hundred dollars. Probably a pure Beaver felt hat STILL is worth about an ounce of gold. =:-O  You can drop 200 bucks on a hat and still have a lot of wool felt in it.  And there are real cheap hats selling for fifty bucks, too.


 * As for felt quality and other materials, the modern cowboy hat IS made out of a lot of different things. Straw is as legit as felt.  This is a good article explaining it all.  http://www.cowboyway.com/HowTo/FeltCowboyHatCare.htm  Most fur-based felt today is actually rabbit fur.  We could discuss that some hats have better water-repelling qualities than others, but you STILL shouldn't use a good hat to water your horse!  The hats I've had over the years have been sort of middle-of the road quality with some fur felt content, and when they have gotten soaked in a rainstorm because I forgot to add a hat cover, (I show horses, sometimes it rains) they usually lose their ability to hold a crease.  A good hat takes longer to get floppy and will regain some shapeability if sprayed with laundry sizing or something, but I don't recommend it.   The cheapos they sell little kids will indeed just disintegrate. I don't know when the first straw cowboy hat was produced, but straw hats in general have been around longer than felt hats, so I suspect it didn't take long.  And Straw hats are a lot cooler in the summer.


 * And last, the intro. If the hat is worn by "everyone," that isn't the point. You are correct that we can't include everyone.  The point is that it has a certain image, is more commonly worn on a daily basis by certain people,  and was designed for a certain purpose.  The intro is supposed to be kind of an overview of the whole article.  So I agree it isn't a great intro, but rather than chop it, we just need to expand/refocus or rewrite some more.  It IS the iconic image of the cowboy. It IS associated more with certain groups of people (investment bankers wearing cowboy hats are pretending to be cowboys, they won't be wearing them to a board meeting)  So, how does one sum up the cowboy hat in 100 words to launch the article??  Hmmm...  Montanabw (talk) 08:35, 4 February 2009 (UTC)


 * ==Photos==

First off, if you can find photos you want to use, and they pass the wikimedia commons copyright stuff to be uploaded here, that's fine. Is there a link?

Does someone specialize in this stuff. How can copyrights last a hundred years?

“Second, if you want to toss the Reagan image,” Ronald’s fine with me, its the hat I want a close look at. “ working cowboys image.” What working cowboys?

Why do we need them anyway, (even if they were working)?

Are these working cowboy hats?

What makes you think real working cowboys still wear the old-time high crown, wide brim hats. The Gene Autry Museum says they wear baseball caps?

Rodeo stars should be wearing helmets. What kind of example is that?

What do they have to do with the hats that won the west on top of Hickok, Buffalo Bill, Annie Oakley, Calamity Jane, and Earp etc. None of who were working cowboys.

Oh, you say below it is the type of people you think are normally associated with a cowboy hat. Do they think that in Sweden?

Movie Stars more likely, none of them move cattle.

China probably thinks they are all Texas Oil Billionaires.

“that's one of the looks out here in the modern west, for real, trust me.”

We are not selling the Modern West. This is about Cowboy Hats. Cowboy hats hearken back to the “Old West.” You want modern West push “old, rusted out, Ford pickup trucks.

People in the modern west (no country for old men, West) wear cowboy hats to associate with the old west.
 * ==Posing on horseback==

“so we'd have a solid basic cowboy hat photos.”

I can’t see the hats. What’s the crown, what’s the brim, What kind of hatband does it have?

What’s it made of?

What is its lineage etc. Picture is useless for hats. Ask any kid what that is a picture of and see if they tell you that is a picture of a cowboy hat?

Fire the guy if he does not know how to shoot a hat.
 * ==Hat Styles==

“Third, If you want to draft sections on more kinds of hats, first do take a peek at what's already in the Stetson”

We had a link to that article. It is about a person not Cowboy hats. The Cowboy hat is one kind of hat that dates from the mid 19th century. "Today's cowboy hat has remained basically unchanged in construction and design since the first one was created in 1865 by J.B. Stetson." [2]

As long as we are grounded in this truth, then why do we want to list a hundred variations,
 * Cattleman
 * RCA
 * Montana Peak
 * Ten Gallon
 * Tom Mix
 * Autry Crease
 * Hand
 * dude
 * El Presidente
 * rancher
 * Gambler etc.

As long as we admit that it is unchanged in construction and design, available in many shapes and colors. We have it covered.
 * ==Who where==

Now you want to go on and add whom you think wears them, and where you think they live, what you think they do for a living, and what color the hats appear. Seems to me the train has run the track.
 * ==Links==

“article, as there is some duplicative material there (they mention cavalry hats and the Mounties, for one thing).”

All of which came after, so could not have influenced the Cowboy Hat. Remember “unchanged in construction and design.”
 * ==Cowboy Hat==

“We are focusing here on the cowboy hat, not every broad-brimmed hat with a crease that exists.”

Exactly the Cowboy hat, before the crease. The Stetson was a cowboy hat before crease distinctions evolved. So a crease cannot make a cowboy hat. They came later.

“Last I checked, almost ALL state troopers wear that "Smokey the Bear" hat that is a sort-of cowboy hat, but not really. (grin)” MaGarrett state police Hawaii five-o, no hat:)

But Yah, sure all variations on the original. They are cowboy hats, they are just individualized. “Unchanged in construction and design.” Still takes 13 steps or whatever to make. Still made primarily of a Beaver-felt blend.

“But once you look at the other hat articles.”

Read all I could find. Also the ones on felt, Mongols, gold etc. Some of those need more work than us. None of them change what a cowboy hat is, the mystique of the hat, or the cowboy hats history. Most we have provided links. I checked where the links went. Mostly dead ends.

“Fourth, we can draft up stuff on various types and uses if you want,”

How is that relevant to what a cowboy hat is, was, or why it is the image of the west?

Image of the West, not “the image of a working cowboy.” The mythical cowboy at best.

“No matter what you wear, if you wear a cowboy hat on your head, you’ll be called a cowboy.(Bender)

Putting that ten-gallon thing in asks to make a list of all the other variations that came along after the Cowboy hat was invented. What is the point of that?

The cowboy hat and all of its insignificant variations.
 * == Directory of hat stores==

“ see the cowboy article where there's a history on them.”

We have a link to that article. But why do you think we need to make a list of all the places cowboy hats are worn?

I guess you could just put in an unnecessary directory of all the cowboy hat stores in the world?

Maybe we left out some in Australia and Argentina. Why is it here at all, if people from all walks of life wear cowboy hats everywhere?

All you need is sun, rain, wind or snow to need a cowboy hat. Unless that is you need a rain coat for your hat?
 * == Paniolo ==

“The Paniolo is not the "first" cowboy, the Mexican Vaquero was."  “Spain and then Mexico controlled the southwestern US until the 1840s.”

Paniolo’s were the first “American Cowboys.”
 * ==Gold==

“Next, if the source says twenty dollars, we say twenty dollars. To do more, like comparing it to gold, is to stretch the limits of WP:V. (What year specifically was gold $20 and ounce?”

The Gold Coinage Act was an act of the United States Congress which allowed for the minting of .. gold coins.. The act was approved on March 3, 1849.

The US twenty dollar gold piece was always $20.00. Still is, and it still weighs one ounce of Gold.

Gold was legal tender in the United states before the Cowboy Hat was invented and was still legal tender when the inventor died.

“Was the the consistent price across the entire USA?”

Story goes he was selling them worldwide by mail order. $20.00 equivalent to one ounce of Gold.
 * ==Knock-offs==

Years later he sold cheaper versions to Sears and Montgomery Wards, but by then a Cowboy hat was a Stetson.

“You see the problem)”

No I do not see a problem. The highest quality hats still sell for about a once of gold. For an ounce of gold you get a cowboy hat that does what a cowboy hat was suppose to do.

“If you want to point out that $20 was a lot of money in those days, a good comparison is not so much to gold, but to other items...a saddle, a pair of boots, etc...”

Nobody uses a pair of boots as a standard of value.

“Of course, there ARE hats today that are selling for several hundred dollars. Probably a pure Beaver felt hat STILL is worth about an ounce of gold. =:-O

That is what it costs, this is what it will do.

"You can drop 200 bucks on a hat and still have a lot of wool felt in it.”

Wouldn’t hold water. Know your Hatter!!

“And there are real cheap hats selling for fifty bucks, too.”

These are just a shadow of a cowboy hat. People see that and think of the real thing. People that read watered down articles about what a cowboy hat is, actually shell out good money for that stuff, and come back disappointed. The modern copy, does not define what a Cowboy hat is, if we go with our quote that they are basically “unchanged from when they were invented.” Those that are unchanged cost the same, do the same, are cowboy hats.

“As for felt quality and other materials, the modern”

Modern!!

Where did you get this modern. Are you creating some new kind of product. The essence is the same.

“"Today's cowboy hat has remained basically unchanged in construction and design since the first one was created in 1865 by J.B. Stetson."” What is modern?

Are you talking about hats that look like cowboy hats but come from China?
 * ==Making hats==

""Cowboy hat IS made out of a lot of different things. Straw is as legit as felt. This is a good article explaining it all." http://www.cowboyway.com/HowTo/FeltCowboyHatCare.htm

We have a link to the Stetson video that shows how hats are made.

“Most fur-based felt today ..”

Today. The thing has been around, built a mystical following over a hundred years and you want to explain how it is being debased today. A top quality hat is still top quality. Made pretty much the same now as it was when it became an icon. Know your hatter.
 * ==Hat Covers==

“a hat cover,”

How funny a cover for a hat.

“ they usually lose their ability to hold a crease.”

Does not fit the definition of a Cowboy hat. Must be something modern.
 * ==Shaping==

“A good hat takes longer to get floppy and will regain some shape ability if sprayed with laundry sizing or something, but I don't recommend it.”

In the old west they would just reshape it over steam. I recommend it. Stetson says, Tom Mix took his into the shower for shaping, which I find works well also.

“The cheapos they sell little kids will indeed just disintegrate.”

Probably wool. Why would a fast growing kid need a fifty year hat?
 * ==Materials==

“I don't know when the first straw cowboy hat was produced, but straw hats in general have been around longer than felt hats, so I suspect it didn't take long. And Straw hats are a lot cooler in the summer?”

Sure Straw hats were made to look like real Cowboy hats in the 1800s. If we say they are made out of just about any material that should cover it.
 * ==image==

“The point is that it has a certain image,”

The image based on legend.

“ is more commonly worn on a daily basis by certain people,”

Who? Reference needed

“and was designed for a certain purpose.”

Originally designed by a prospector at Pikes Peak looking for a way to get Gold into his pocket.
 * ==Intro==

The intro is supposed to be kind of an overview of the whole article. So I agree it isn't a great intro, but rather than chop it, we just need to expand/refocus or rewrite some more.

“It IS the iconic image of the cowboy. “
 * ==What people?==

“It IS associated more with certain groups of people” “they won't be wearing them to a board meeting”

I was told US Senators were wearing them to the inauguration, so does the public who saw them on TV, associate Stetsons with those kinds of people, J.R. and the bunch?

“is particularly associated with ranch workers in the western and southern United States, western Canada and northern Mexico, with country-western singers, and for participants in the North American rodeo circuit.”

You are not going to find any good references to back up this malarkey. You can’t be making up these short lists. What about rock and roll singers, what about High school rodeo etc. What happened to South America, anywhere people eat beef. This has to go.
 * ==Sum==

“So, how does one sum up the cowboy hat in 100 words to launch the article??”

That is the thousand-word question. Not by listing people, and places, to explain a piece of felt.

I would think what is a cowboy hat in every case? What was invented?

What actually exists in matter?

It cannot be constrained by modern, because its evolution was essentially complete over a hundred years ago.

"Today's cowboy hat has remained basically unchanged in construction and design since the first one was created in 1865 by J.B. Stetson." [2]

The importance of its mystique. It was never only for horsemen. The first one belonged to a miner. Anyone who wears one, even a cheap copy, instantly assumes the aura of the Westerner. Why is that? What is the importance of that?
 * ==Other sources==

There are books that can tell you who wears each kind of crease, like an astrology reading. That does not belong here.

There are myths about how a 19th century hat was influenced by 20th century happenings. That does not belong here.

We can list all the different people who someone believes wears cowboy hats. We can guess at places where more cowboy hats are sold. That does not belong here either.
 * ==Conclusion==

A person comes to Cowboy Hat. They get what it is. Why it is unique. It’s History in pictures.

After reading this post a person should know what a cowboy hat is, where it came from, and how to tell one on sight.


 * ==Mad as a Hatter==

Are you mad as a hatter?

The term "Mad as a hatter" comes from the old practice of using mercury to put a special finish on headwear. Over-exposure to the mercury in this process would indeed lead to insanity. However, because of the obvious medical hazards, mercury is no longer used for that process. http://www.custom-hatter.com/faq.html

Help
Hi Gold. The "US Senators" wearing them in the inaugural parade included the entire Montana congressional delegation plus our Governon, all of whom also rode horses. Max and Denny are ranchers, Jon and Brian are farmers, all of them actually do know how to ride and in their lives have actually done things like herd cattle. (Though this is not true of all Montanans) LOL! Montanabw (talk) 03:32, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Anyway, on the article, we are both constrained by Wikipedia's MOS, which says we have to have an intro that sums up the content of the article, and we need to do the best we can to source our material. So, rather than totally endless discussion, how about you just draft up more material you want to add, you already have found some good history stuff, and then I'll wordsmith on it. If we disagree on an edit, we can thrash out minor stuff either here or via article hidden text. Montanabw (talk) 03:32, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Also feel free to add the"fact" tag to stuff in there you are dubious about. It's all able to be figure out. On one hand, I do agree that " a person should know what a cowboy hat is, where it came from, and how to tell one on sight." But that's why we also add pictures, eh? I also agree there is no real need to dig up sales statistics, though I'd be amused by per capita ownership by state -- though, unfortunately, there are probably no records. (grin) As for the comment on what the cowboy hat was versus what it is, the hat IS still a real piece of headgear worn by people for more than just some yuppie rebel image, (I find Bono's cowboy hat thing to be a bit more than ridiculous, but oh well)  it still is marketed to certain groups of people, among them rodeo cowboys and other people aspiring to some sort of western image. Montanabw (talk) 03:32, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Design
Modern cowboy hats are made of fur-based felt, straw or, less often, leather. They are sold with a tall, rounded crown and a wide flat brim. They have a simple sweat band on the inside to stabilize the fit of the hat, and usually a small decorative hat band on the outside of the crown. Hats are customized by creasing the crown and rolling the brim. Often a more decorative hatband is added. In some places, "stampede strings" or "wind strings" are also attached. 1940 saw the introduction of pastel colors for movie cowboys and rodeo riders.

While proportions, decorations, and scale change with the whims of fashion, basic hat style has changed little in the past five hundred years. There are only two basic hat styles, brimmed and unbrimmed, which come in two basic forms, hats and caps. These are most often produced in one or two materials, felt or straw. In recent years, however, the cloth baseball cap seems to have become the most common form of cowboy headwear.

The modern cowboy hat comes in wide variety of shapes, styles, and colors, everything from traditional styles preferred by cowboys, to outrageous fashion statements, but Stetson's "Boss of the Plains" is still the foundation for most of the cowboy hats produced today.

-oo0(GoldTrader)0oo- (talk) 16:00, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

History
The concept of a broad-brimmed hat with a high crown worn by a rider on horseback can be seen as far back as the Mongolian horsemen of the 13th century A tall crown provided insulation, the wide brim, shade. The Spanish developed a flat-topped sombrero, which they brought to Mexico, which was modified by the vaquero into the round-crowned "Mexican" sombrero seen today.

"Cowboy hats go back to almost the inception of the cowboy himself." However, It is not clear when the cowboy's hat began to be named as such. Westerners originally had no standard headwear. People moving west wore many styles of hat, including top hats, derbies, remains of Civil War headgear, sailor hats and everything else. The working cowboy wore wide-brimmed, high-crowned hats long before the invention of the cowboy hat.

The original "“Boss of the Plains," manufactured by John Batterson Stetson, was flat-brimmed, had a straight sided crown, with rounded corners. These light-weight, waterproof, hats were natural in color, with four inch crowns and brims. A plain hatband was fitted to adjust head size. The sweatband bore Stetson’s name. While only making one style of hat, they came in different qualities ranging from one-grade material at five dollars apiece to pure beaver felt hats for thirty dollars each. A large brimmed felt hat, designed for plantation workers in the West Indies was previously produced by Christy's hat factory in Park Lane, Bristol, England. But Stetson was the first to market the "Boss of the plains," to cowboys, making the Stetson synonymous with a true "Cowboy's hat." The cowboy hat quickly developed the capability, even in the early years, to identify its wearer as someone associated with the West. "Within a decade the name John B. Stetson became synonymous with the word "hat," in every corner and culture west of the Mississippi." The shape of the hat's crown and brim were often modified by the wearer for fashion and to protect against weather. Because of the ease of personalization, it was often possible for people to tell where a cowboy hat was from, right down to which ranch, simply by looking at the crease in the crown.

As the mystique of the "Wild West" was popularized by entertainers such as Buffalo Bill Cody and later by western movies starring actors such as Tom Mix, the Cowboy hat came to symbolize the American West. John Wayne christened them "the hat that won the West"

The "Boss of the plains," western hat influenced various wide-brimmed hats worn by farmers and stockmen all over the United States. Future designs were customized for Law enforcement, military and motion pictures.

The first American law-enforcement agency to adopt Stetson’s western hat as part of their uniform was the Texas Rangers. The Stetson is also part of the uniform of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. Presidents Truman, Eisenhower, and Johnson wore western Stetsons.

"Today's cowboy hat has remained basically unchanged in construction and design since the first one was created in 1865 by J.B. Stetson."

-oo0(GoldTrader)0oo- (talk) 16:00, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Mat Hatters and stuff
Hi Gold. What strikes me in your research is how much of your material is true about hats in general (like the Mad Hatter stuff), not only (or not necessarily) cowboy hats. While a bit of it is useful in this article, it has occurred to me that you ought to add some of this material to the general articles on hats and hatmaking (and maybe add more wikilinks to this article so it's easy to find the info.  Montanabw (talk) 18:16, 16 April 2009 (UTC))

Links
Is there a link that goes to a specific paragraph without going to the whole page?

Like a link to cowboy hat / history instead of [cowboy hat] total page? -oo0(GoldTrader)0oo- (talk) 07:19, 18 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Use the article name, a "#" symbol, and then the name of the closest subheading (of the ones that appear in the table of contents. For example Cowboy hat.  Problem is, it only works so long as no one re-titles the subheading.   Montanabw (talk) 00:43, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Stockmen
I have seen a hat from Miller Stockman, Colo. Stockman is a word we use twice in this post, but the Wiki link does not match either usage. I think it should only be used once, no reason for the redundancy. If either of our uses is close to correct the link should be followed down and corrected by someone who thinks they know what they are talking about. -oo0(GoldTrader)0oo- (talk) 07:19, 18 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I see your point from a flow of the wording viewpoint. Here's the deal: In Australia, ranchers are called Stockmen, which is where the link goes.  (there is a note at the end of the lede on US useage of the term) HOWEVER, it is an interchangeable term in the USA for a rancher as well.  Not only the Miller Stockman company, but also cattle magazines with titles that included "Stockman" in them, etc.  (My dad used to subscribe to the Montana Farmer-Stockman, they used to be laying all over the house when I was a kid). So I guess my thought is to be aware that the term has two meanings and maybe when used link US references to the ranch article with a piped link instead of having them go to the Aussie article.  I guess I'll say just do what seems to work best for the article.   Montanabw (talk) 00:49, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

= Christy's hat factory = All the elements used in the Boss of the plains Stetson hat, were in use in the East before Stetson went west. His crafting these design features into an all weather hat made of Beaver for the cowboy is what distinguished the product. Stetson made his mark through marketing. “A large brimmed felt hat, designed for plantation workers in the West Indies was previously produced by Christy's hat factory in Park Lane, Bristol, England. http://www.gertlushonline.co.uk/west-country-cowboy-hats.html” The idea that someone may have had a similar looking non-all weather hat elsewhere means absolutely nothing at all. This is why I am removing this unsubstantiated rumor from the page. Even it were true, SO WHAT! It was not a cowboy hat!

-oo0(GoldTrader)0oo- (talk) 03:12, 29 November 2009 (UTC)


 * I didn't put it there,

I did not think that you did.

-oo0(GoldTrader)0oo- (talk) 04:28, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

but be nice...the real question is if the design was somehow an inspiration for the cowboy hat. I honestly don't care either way, but someone once cared and put it in there. So I'm OK with the edit, but you are getting a whack with a wet trout for being snarky. LOL! (Not that I don't get trout smacked for snarkiness too...I admit...)  Montanabw (talk) 06:07, 29 November 2009 (UTC)