Talk:Cracker (term)/Archive 1

Cracker
"Cracker" is not from the slave masters "cracking" their whips, it comes from poor whites who could only afford and thus ate crackers. Cracker, Linthead etc. are all from the same time period and have essentially the same meaning i.e. "poor white person." The idea that cracker comes from slave masters is just another white supremacist fabrication to twist the origination of the word into something that makes themselves feel superior.

Just "Cracker," not "white cracker," which is a tautology: imagine a black cracker. Or a native American cracker. Too dumb to correct (TDTC) Wetman 08:50, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

"Cracker" may exists alone as an insult, but "White cracker", due to being the most (if only) variant in use on any broad scale, is a term in and of itself. Even so, jsut to me safe, I had already added it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cracker 08:56, 13 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Revert of Neutrallity's edit - 04:50, 14 Sep 2004
There were two things reverted


 * "Nigger" was reverted to "N-word". Both are valid Wiki links. I prefer the softer "N-word". Neutrality ought to justify his change prior to making it again


 * The citations and text referring to Al Gore's campaign manager (Donna Brazile) calling GWB a "White Cracker" in 2000 was restored. Neutrality's edit summary said he deleted due to "dubious truth".

The original text, which I restored has (2) links as sources and clearly notes that it was not widely reported. I feel that it's incumbent upon Neutrality to defend his deletion here, rather than simply trying to force it on the article.

In addition, the text was clarified to indicate that this statement attributed to Donna Brazile is an allegation, not a unrebuttable fact.

04:58, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * "The N-word" is a preposterous suburban genteelism, like a parlor in a mobile home. If "Nigger" is the word, just say so: it loses none of its repellent shock power by repetition, be assured. Wetman 05:32, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)

This article is not about the word nigger. Also, as the article states, white cracker is not as harsh of a term as nigger. Therefore, there is no need to use the word nigger for scale. In fact using the term N-word for scale emphasizes the lesser level of severity of white cracker than the word nigger. 05:51, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * There are some - myself included - who find the word "cracker" to be as insulting as the word "nigger". I have no problem with either being used on the wiki - after all, "the N-word" sounds like a six-year-old tattling to their teacher - but I take great offence to the idea that a black person calling a white person a "cracker" is not as offensive as a white person calling a black person "nigger". That's racism, pure and simple. It's all about the intent behind the word, not the word itself. thefamouseccles 01:39, 25 Oct 2005 (UTC)

1) Newsmax is not a valid source. 2) "The N word" is an infantile construction. Thanks you. [[User:Neutrality|Neutrality (talk)]] 14:03, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * 1) Neutrality, you are not the sole arbiter of what is and is not a "valid" source"
 * 2) Neutrality, you are not the sole arbiter of what is and is not an "infantile construction"
 * If you'd like to dialog about this sincerely, that's fine. On  the other hand, since you are going around this Wiki referring to me as a "troll", I seriously doubt that you are dealing with me on the level here.  Do you have a problem with me as an editor? Would you agree to mediation? Please advise. PS: In the meantime, I have again restored my edits which you keep deleting.


 * [[User:Rex071404|Rex071404 [[Image:Happyjoe.jpg]] ]] 14:59, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * The Drudge link mentions Cindy Adams of the NYPost as being the source. The Newsmax article just repeats the Drudge article, it adds nothing.  And the Enos Throop link just has one sentence about this, adding nothing.  Surely there are better sources?  AlistairMcMillan 15:48, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)

3 revert limit has been exceeded by Neutrality 15:11, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Neutrality, your 3-revert limit for today 9.14.04, has been exceeded on this article. Please desist from further reverts. I am willing to dialog about this. Please discuss on this page. 15:11, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * BTW You are aware Rex that you have reverted five times (make that eight now) on this article so far. Right?  If you are going to hold everyone else to the 3-revert rule it would help your case if you did the same. AlistairMcMillan 15:51, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * It's curious Alistair, that you and Neutrality just happen to appear on this, another of the new articles I have created, wouldn't you say? [[User:Rex071404|Rex071404 [[Image:Happyjoe.jpg]] ]] 16:07, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * Yep. It's all just a big conspiracy.  We are "THE MAN" and we are trying to "KEEP YOU DOWN".  :)


 * All sarcasm aside, you do remember that you yourself pointed me here four days ago. "I have been the proginator of (4) new articles in the two months I have been here"  I just didn't want to get into a revert war.


 * Anyway are you going to answer my query above about the three links? AlistairMcMillan 16:29, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The article makes clear that there were few news reports and that this is an "allegation". It is not however, a groundless allegation and as such is not subject to unilateral tag-team reverts. Also, I am virtually certain this page was started by me after any communications to you. for you to have found this, you must have been looking deliberatly. Why that is, I am not speculating. It is however, curious to me. 17:21, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * What was the phrase you used ""totem pole speculation"?
 * # Brazile alledgedly tells a gossip columnist for a right wing paper, Cindy Adams (and no-one else).
 * # Cindy Adams decides not to print the story in her column (I mean it is a gossip column after all, she has standards, she can't go printing anything). So she alledgedly tells Drudge (and no-one else).
 * # Drudge prints it on his site for all to see.
 * # A bunch of people with a conservative bias, pick up the story and repeat it. However none (0) of them follow up with Brazile or Adams (or Drudge for that matter).  Not even for the good old traditional "Brazile refused to comment" comment.
 * # No-one follows up or tries to prove the story one way or another for three (3) years.
 * You're so obviously right in this matter. How could anyone possibly even hint that this might not be a slam-dunk.


 * BTW About your suspicions. You weren't clear that when I checked out the list of pages you started, I was to do that once and once only.  Do I have to apply for permission to check your contrib list first, in triplicate? AlistairMcMillan 21:37, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Reverts by Neutrality on 09.14.04:


 * 15:09, 14 Sep 2004
 * 14:56, 14 Sep 2004
 * 14:01, 14 Sep 2004
 * 04:33, 14 Sep 2004

15:20, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * I left a comment for Neutrality about this here and he deleted it. His edit summary refers to my comment as "trolling". [[User:Rex071404|Rex071404 [[Image:Happyjoe.jpg]] ]] 15:44, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * I discussed above and in my edit summaries. [[User:Neutrality|Neutrality (talk)]] 15:17, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Neutrality, as I understand the term discussion it requires that you wait for my reply. As I understand Consensus decision making, it requires that we actually try to come to a jointly acceptable resolution. I'd like to try that here. Are you willing to try? Please advise. 15:24, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)

It may be coincidental but if you're implying that I'm Neutrality, you are mistaken. And I was not describing you as "prissy" - I was describing the edit as such. Discussion, incidentally, does not mean that you automatically get your own way, especially when the majority of people on this talk page seem to disagree with you. --195.11.216.59 15:48, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)

195.11.216.59, you have a duty to edit towards consensus, not majority rule - please see Consensus decision making 15:59, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)

And we all have a duty, if you are editing on Wikipedia, to work towards creating an encyclopedia rather than pushing any particular brand of politics, and we should all remember that. Consensus? OK, how about this. We all agree that the article deserves to exist. We all agree that the word can be used as an insult or in a lighter, humorous way. I'm certainly prepared to accept that it's good to have examples of both, and no-one seems concerned about leaving Chef in, but several people seem unhappy about the Bush example. How about we agree to leave that one out, as there are doubts about its validity and it's very controversial during this election period, and look for another example that's not so politically charged? --195.11.216.59 16:21, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * 195.11.216.59, in regards to Neutrality, one of the "people" who have been reverting me, he has been a principle editorial foil against me on several Kerry/Bush related articles. So you may want to temper your assessments by taking that into account. Also, other than some (one? two? )simply wanting the Brazile insult against Bush "out" there has not been substantial enough justification for removing it. I have tweaked the text to accomodate certain concerns of others, but I will not sit idly by and allow a deletion of the Brazil/Bush referrence simply because some find it unpleasant. Brazile is noted for insults of this type. Her reputation, along with the links I have provided, make using her comment to illustrate that word, perfectly valid. [[User:Rex071404|Rex071404 [[Image:Happyjoe.jpg]] ]] 17:28, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Discussion of Word Selection consensus has been reached on N-word / Nigger
Reasons for using "Nigger":
 * It is the actual title of the article referenced.
 * It is the word that actualy has such "power."
 * It is the actual term, not a euphemism. Although "White cracker" may be less harsh, it is the actual slur and not a euphemism.

Reasons for using "N word":
 * Some people may be offended by use of the word "Nigger" so its use should be minimized.

Users supporting the use of "Nigger":
 * L33tminion
 * As a non-logged-in editor, if this comes down to a vote, my view will not be counted. Be aware as well, L33tminion, that as your only edits so far have been to this article, you may well be accused of being a sockpuppet (indeed, I have some doubts about you myself). Nevertheless, I'm including my voice here in support. --195.11.216.59 16:03, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * I really am a new user, but I understand your suspicions. I found this article on the recently edited articles list.  Previously, I had edited the article on Olin College, but I had no account at that time.
 * I can vouch for L33tminion being a new user. I am also a student at Olin and know him personally. --Nertzy

Users supporting the use of "N word":


 * I prefer the "N-word", but have acquiesced to the group on that point (see article). This is how consensus is built - we all make a best efforts attempt to accomodate each other. [[User:Rex071404|Rex071404 [[Image:Happyjoe.jpg]] ]] 16:05, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Newsmax column (now Drudge instead)
Please explain what the Newsmax column adds to the story? AlistairMcMillan 21:51, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Newsmax add a reference to corroborate that the Donna Brazile example is not merely being imagined by us, the Wiki editors. 22:06, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * Changed the Newsmax (third hand source) link to the Drudge (second hand source) link. AlistairMcMillan 22:39, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Ok with me. 23:02, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Origin: Corn-cracking poor
Some Florida crackers say that poor people who had to crack their own corn at home because they couldn't afford to buy processed corn were called crackers by some of those more affluent, who looked down upon the activity. This usage does not pre-suppose that the cracker is a white person but would refer to anyone who's so poor. Beanluc 23:13, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)


 * I've heard that story told by J.J. Gray of the Florida Panhandle soul-rock band Mofro, in live performance as a preamble to his song "dirtfloorcracka". I think the above paragraph is worth including in the Origins discussion in the article, and that it would be worth making Origins a section of its own instead of a single paragraph. Anyone agree? Beanluc 23:13, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Offtopic aside: Interestingly, the notion of poor people distastefully having to crack stuff for food has a life in the North too: While I don't think the epithet "cracker" was ever used up there, it could have been. Only the poorest people in Maine used to eat lobster becauser it was such dirt-cheap trashy food. It's said they would bury the shells in the yard instead of be seen putting their "crackins" on the trashheap. They say there was once a prison riot in Maine over the inmates' being fed lobster too frequently. Beanluc 23:30, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Georgia Cracker
The phrase Georgia Cracker is older than implied in the article lead: "...originally a pejorative term for a white person mainly used by blacks" - by at least a century. Note the 1890 reference in the article [here]. The age of the term finally is discussed in the thrird paragraph, making the word "originally" in the first line troubling. ~ WCFrancis 23:20, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Ethnic slur
There is a category for ethnic slurs. Wigger is in, this should probably be as well. Comments? --Uncle Bungle 02:43, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

I think
This article is proof that everytime Rex creates an article with a title this dumb it should be immediatly deleted/redirected/locked/, save wikipedia from a lot of dumbness--152.163.100.10 05:21, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Further commentary on my edits
I'm restoring a few minor edits after they were reverted, and adding a few more, with some commentary.

The first edit fixes some faulty parallelism.
 * As an insult, "cracker" was and is typically invoked against a white American, particularly (though not necessarily) lower-income, uneducated rural men...

This sentence first says that the term is invoked against "a white American", and then against "rural men". I've made this marginally clearer by using the plural in both places.

The second edit resolves a modified/modifier gap.
 * ...in the South, especially in Georgia.

I moved this phrase closer to invoked, which it modifies.

Thirdly, especially is a more concise way of saying "particularly (though not necessarily)".

Fourthly, I modified the remark about victims of the slur, with more focus on who is using the word, rather than those against whom it is used.

Fifthly, I mention how that remark is unverified.

The result:


 * As an insult, cracker'' was and is used most frequently in the South, especially in Georgia. It is invoked typically against white Americans. It may reflect frustration with undereducation, and also possibly is a sign of contempt for poverty, although insufficient evidence of this is available.

Omphaloscope &raquo; talk 22:03, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Article completely out of context with regards to actual HISTORY
So this is what happens when you let people squabble over a term that has roots over 500 years old in Southern History? No one can see past the negative connotation to actually go out and pick up a history book or research properly. This entire article is a shame and should be wiped from the Wiki and started over by someone who has a distinct clue on where this word actually came from and how times changed and it became a perjorative term for poor white southerners. For those who would like a clue start by googling the terms "Florida Cracker" "Perdido Cracker" and see where it leads you.

Your use of the term "Perdido Cracker" on this page is the only Google hit for the term as of today. THB 19:56, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Disputed section
Please give a reference for the section explaining the difference between a cracker and a hillbilly or hick. THB 19:53, 14 February 2006 (UTC) You may want to read about "Craker Cowboys" that used whips to drive cattle. This is where the term came from.

Etymology
The etymology tracing the term back to the Gaelic craic is well established and documented. The other etymologies which do not have no similar documentation, if so noted, can all be listed together as lesser and/or unsubstantiated theories. There is no scholarly reason to call out one specific etymology for scorn by stating "It has no basis in fact".

While the word has similarities in to carraig, unless there is an etymology in which carraig is cited, there is no reason for that entry to exist. It could just as easily be stated that it has similarities to Old English cracian, the root of crack. The entry on Carraig adds bulk with no substance.

Lastly, the quotation of cracker in Darwin's The Origin of Species is a supporting subset definition of the already established cracker definition given to the Lord of Dartmouth, as lawless Scots-Irish who inhabit many areas including Virginia. It is not a seperate etymology.

Etymology2
The entire etymology was pulled out of someone ass, without one refernce besides the first sentence

Picture caption
Do you think it's right for the caption of the picture to be "Label depicting a barefoot cracker boy eating peaches from a straw hat" ? This directly states that the boy is a cracker. Shouldn't it be something like "Label depicting a barefoot boy eating peaches from a straw hat, clearly being referred to as a cracker", so that it states that the sign is calling the boy a cracker and not wikipedians? I think it's allright, but i suppose some people could get offended. Opinions? Gerardo199 23:55, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Depending on context
Despite the previous consensus on the matter (see above), and the objections of various editors who remove the text, an editor keeps adding this sentence: Can we have some verification of this, and perhaps a discussion of whether it is correct and appropriate? -Will Beback 19:28, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Depending on context, this slur can have the same negative and demeaning stance to whites as the word Nigger does to blacks.


 * for the last 100+ years "cracker" has been jocular and friendly--see the books listed and note the "Cracker state" motto as well as the brand name biscuit. Actual derogatory usage has been uncommon. Rjensen 01:22, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

George Bush Hates Me
Changed the heading GEORGE BUSH HATES ME to Usage Halfbakedbliss 12:22, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

The Donna Brazile section needs a reference.

Unsourced/nnpv
"In recent years, members of the American Left have taken to calling Christian Conservatives "Crackers" as an insult. On August 20, 2000, Internet gossip columnist Matt Drudge reported that Donna Brazile, Al Gore's campaign manager, called George W. Bush a "black hating cracker"

I dont see how one alleged cracker slur from one member of the american left could be seen as "recent years, members of the american left." As if this is a widespread phenomenon and accepted fact. Also, the wording implies that this a slur used against christian conservatives in general and I dont think there is any proof to that. I removed the first sentence entirely and left the rest intact. Any objections? First time poster btw and I apologize if I have not followed protocol.--Jasper23 20:18, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Took out NPOV and Un-encyclopedic material
Here it is:

The first part is obvious:

"In recent years, members of the American Left have taken to calling Christian Conservatives "Crackers" as an insult."

"On August 20, 2000, Internet gossip columnist Matt Drudge reported that Donna Brazile, Al Gore's campaign manager, called George W. Bush a "black hating cracker" while talking to New York Post gossip columnist Cindy Adams at the 2000 Democratic National Convention."

This part is an unsourced claim by Matt Drudge with no corroboration. Not worthy of an encyclopedia article.

I feel like we should take out the whole politics section. Discussion? Disagreement? Comments?

Removal of new section
One etymology dating back to the antebellum South claims the term originated with slavery. At the advent of American slavery, Native Americans were used, but most of these slaves were not resistant to the strange European diseases that were brought over during the colonial period. Others knew the land better than the white colonists, and fled or were liberated by fellow tribe members. (Cf. In the Spirit of Crazy Horse by Peter Mattheson)A second attempt invoved using lower class white slaves from Europe. Many of these folks arrived as indentured servants, but died during their period of enslavement or were kept in bondage longer than the agreed upon time. But most of these would simply walk off the plantation and mingle with the immigrant workers who were arriving in ever increasing numbers. After Africans became the target for the slave trade (due to their distinctive appearance and the fact that many European diseases were also common in Africa), the number of poor whites vastly outnumbered the elite class, who were wealthy enough to own land (and slaves). Racism was used as a tool by the ruling elite to prevent the destitute whites from becoming sympathetic to the African slaves, and possibly aiding them in escaping the horrors of slavery. These lower classes were also employed as foremen in the plantations, whose job it was to supervise black slaves and to prevent their escape. Many used bullwhips to terrorize the African slaves, and the sound the whip made when it was used as a weapon was (and still is) called 'cracking' the whip. The foremen were thus known as 'crackers' in reference to the noise of their whips as they were used to assualt the bodies of the slaves. (Cf. Thomas Jefferson's Notes on Virginia and the film Matawan). At the close of the American Civil War. many who had previously been employed as night riders (slave catchers) or foremen became unmeployed. These now jobless whites were then influenced by former Confederate officers bitter from the loss of the war to join the Ku Klux Klan, which was created by Nathan Bedford Forrest in attempt to resist Reconstruction. This further instilled racism and a distrust of the US federal government in these lower income whites, thus setting the stage for the period of time and system of laws and customs known as Jim Crow, further exacerbating race relations in the South. (Cf. Remembering Jim Crow by American RadioWorks).

Sorry, the above section is just way too long. It destroys the rest of the article with an unsourced and possibly biased pov. I do appreciate the hard work that you must have put into this but nothing is cited. This is too speculative and does not belong in an encyclopedia article. Btw, vandalism is not the term you want to use when you disagree with someones good faith edit.Jasper23 20:45, 27 August 2006 (UTC)


 * The part about "cracking the whip" seems very relevant. I'd rather see us keep the text that directly deals with the etymology (i.e. not the part about the Klan) but tag it as needing citations... -/- Warren 21:31, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree that some parts of this should be kept...but I would prefer to see sources to check the validity of all this. If you look at the top of this talk page, this etymology is attributed to white supremacist groups. I would like to see it go in as it is sourced.Jasper23 21:39, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

i would like to ask a question about hillbillies and hopefully you can answer it. many of thier stories songs and ballads delat with the history of what?

asking a question
hello, i would like to ask a question and hopefully you may be able to answer. many of the hillbillies songs and stories and ballads dealt with the history of what?

What? Jasper23 19:43, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Sourced material/Harold Ford Sr.
Properly sourced material should not be removed without discussion. -THB 02:21, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

The first source is from an opinion page. Sure, whatever. Put someones opinion in as a cite. However, the you tube cite just wont fly. Its more than likely that he said tracker and not cracker. Otherwise its original research and pov. This is an attack on a living person without substantiated proof, just conjecture.

In October 2006, a Fox news camera captured Harold Ford, Sr. using the term on a cellphone outside the Senatorial campaign headquarters of his son, Harold Ford, Jr. (Video)

Jasper23 02:29, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Sir, you are correct and I apologize. Even the man he said it to said he said "tracker". The two videos are here: -THB 02:56, 28 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Can we say "whitewash?" Dubc0724 13:14, 30 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Can we say "fact checking?" You should give it a try sometime and then retract your whitewash statement. I would venture to guess that you probably wont. Jasper23 19:58, 1 November 2006 (UTC)


 * At the time, nobody was backing up his "tracker" claim. I still don't buy it (kinda like "botched joke") having listened to the clip.  But it's really inconsequential at this point. Moving on... Dubc0724 14:37, 2 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Whatever. Did you read the article linked above? Did you read how all the news networks retracted their claims and how the original instigator of the claim admitted that he was wrong? Probably not. But you still chose to be rude anyway. Great job there. Jasper23 16:10, 2 November 2006 (UTC)


 * OK. Dubc0724 21:34, 2 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I wasn't buying it either. But there is a link above in my apology post that even shows the tracker/cracker guy saying that Ford Sr. said "tracker".  -THB 19:22, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

British(?) usage
"Crackers" (always in the plural) is a fairly common, though perhaps now slightly old-fashioned, insult in British English, meaning something close to "loony", and with the same level of usually quite mild insult. For example: "He wants to walk to London? The man's clearly crackers!" I have no idea of the etymology, but it has no racist overtones whatever, the racist term being unknown in the UK except where imported from America. Loganberry (Talk) 03:56, 28 November 2006 (UTC)


 * It is understood, but not often used, in the U.S. in the same manner. -THB 04:04, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Citations missing tag
User THB and I have recently disagreed on whether this article has sufficient references. I've read through the article, and it appears editors have made a successful effort to make sure that majority of the content is scrupulously sourced.

According to THB's recent edit summary, the article "still has many controversial unsourced statements." Many? Really? Besides the lone statement curently marked with the "fact" tag (the part about cracker being similar to redneck, which hardly strikes me as controversial, or even debatable), what specifically are the unsourced statements that we must correct before the tag can be removed? I would love to address "the underlying problem," but I need help identifying precisely what the problem is.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 15:21, 11 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Done. -THB 15:28, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Cracker Party
Rather than cluttering up the article any more than it already is, please see the two references which clearly identify Roy Harris as both the leader of the Augusta "Cracker Party", former speaker of the house for the State of Georgia, and a former state Democratic Convention floor leader. He was also a well known segregationalist.

http://www.stetsonkennedy.com/jim_crow_guide/chapter7_2.htm

http://www.amazon.com/phrase/Roy-Harris —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Omnivore Oprah (talk • contribs) 21:10, 3 January 2007 (UTC).

You have violated the 3rr rule and will be reported. Your argument on the talk page makes little sense. Jasper23 21:15, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

It only fails to make sense to you. --REMOVED PERSONAL ATTACK-- Omnivore Oprah 21:18, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Wow, that was very rude. Jasper23 21:33, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

What are "niggorz" please?
The text reads: "Crackin' Good Snacks (a division of Winn Dixie, a Southern grocery chain) has sold niggorz similar to Ritz crackers under the name "Georgia Crackers"."

I see plurals changed all the time in this manner by kids on the internet or playing gamez(!). Quite obviously this 'usage' of English does not belong in an encyclopedia. -- Mal 11:01, 8 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Er, the only thing you see wrong was the plural? It was a bit of childish racist vandalism; I've reverted it, and blocked the idiot who did it. --Mel Etitis  ( Μελ Ετητης ) 12:34, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Discussion of Etymology and Folk Etymology
Ok, I'm game let's discuss. Bierstube Katzen Keller 23:57, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

"examples of usage"
One of the links in that section, [The Crescent], leads to an article about a department store rather than the plantation house referred to in the sentence. I don't know if there's an article for the real thing or not, or else I'd just change it. 71.37.22.24 19:48, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Photo
It's not clear to me that anyone has a good idea of what kind of photo they'd like to see here, so I've removed the Photo requested template from this page. If you put the tag back, please consider describing specifically what kind of picture you think would benefit this article in the of= parameter to the template. Tim Pierce 00:01, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Non-pejorative term
Does anyone know if there is a non-pejorative term for the descendants of indentured servants and transported prisoners? --The Four Deuces 20:17, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Georgia cracker peaches.jpg
Image:Georgia cracker peaches.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 22:45, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Sources over-thinking the origin?
I know his is original research, but geez, I wonder if any of these sources even *considered* the possibility that "cracker" as a pejorative for whites might just have come from the color of crackers (as in saltines, the most popular cracker probably in the world or at least the U.S.). By the way, maybe it really did come things like cops/white folks being "whipcrackers," but to me that sounds like some sociologist was looking to justify nonwhites using racist language. Just my opinion. Swordwing (talk) 01:09, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

'Mean' in British English
I don't think this part - '(Note that in British English "mean" is also a term for poverty, with no malice implied.)' - is really accurate; it's more used to mean 'miserly' and would be more likely to be used for a well-off person who was tight with their money than a poor person.86.54.40.169 (talk) 15:16, 19 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, so it means in British English. However, in American English it generally means abusive, malicious, bad-tempered, etc.  I think that distinction is what the sentence meant to convey, though it doesn't do it very well.  Eastcote (talk) 16:20, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
 * In British English of an earlier period (though not now) it simply meant "poor, small, insignificant". As in Acts xxi.39, "I am a citizen of no mean city", i.e. a city of significant size and status. Or in the 19th century hymn "Once in royal David's city" - "With the poor and mean and lowly/ Lived on Earth our Saviour holy." This is obviously how it was used in the description of "mean whites" in the Britannia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.133.68.192 (talk) 11:05, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Cracker
The term Cracker was used in the North, NJ and NY for sure in the 50s and 60s.75.197.135.114 (talk) 00:05, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

PS: It was used against all white people by those now referred to as Blacks, African Americans, and so forth. Please update your database. If people could get away from using the terms Blacks, Caucausian, Asian, and continously reinventing new names the racie issue would subside a great deal. As long as people keep getting it shoved in their faces will it continue to exist.
 * We need a reliable source before we can add your information Alatari (talk) 08:57, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

It seems there is a great disconnect between the way this term was used as a pejorative against whites in the NY/NJ region (among others) in the '70s and the provided etymologies of Florida cowboys and poor Georgia whites. Where is the link in these usages? Is the 'poor' connotation being presumed to be the pejorative context? Trying to understand the linkage here between the etymology and the modern/recent usages as it is not clear at all. I suspect they are actually completely different usages, but need to research further.75.119.241.249 (talk) 19:40, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Colin Keiper...?
Regarding the last sentence of the first paragraph "The word cracker is sometimes used when referring to someone who is racist, especially "Colin Keiper" (bold & quote marks mine).

WHO is this Colin Keiper, what relevance is he to this article, and why are there no references or citations for him?

Based on the tone of the sentence, it appears that this is an attack on Colin Keiper. If so, why?

Would someone be so kind and please educate me?

Rich5150 (talk) 02:51, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Who ever he is, he is not important enough to have a Wikipedia page. 67.166.155.113 (talk) 06:08, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Unsourced info
Moving to talk page until its sourced:

Other possible theories include references to cracking a whip over oxen when driving to market, the 18th century practice of cracking corn to make liquor, or to poor whites having had to crack their grain because they couldn't afford to take it to the local mill to have it ground. A popular etymology claims the term cracker originated from piney-woods Georgia and Florida pastoral yeomen's use of whips to drive cattle. The word then came to be associated with the cattlemen of Georgia and Florida. Cattlemen of the state of Florida (and some native born Floridians) take pride in being called "crackers", "Florida Crackers", or "Cracker Cowboys". The Cracker culture included using the bullwhip as a form of communication between cattle drivers, using "Cracks" and pauses to send messages.

A false or folk etymology claims the term dates back to slavery in the antebellum South. Many slaver foremen used bullwhips to terrorize African slaves, and the sound the whip made when it was used as a weapon was called 'cracking' the whip. The foremen who cracked these whips were thus known as 'crackers'. 


 * I'm curious where you would expect to find such evidence of its origins with that meaning given that slaves in the antebellum south were prohibited by law from reading and writing and they for damn sure weren't going to be calling their slave owner a cracker to his face. Every black person I know that uses the term traces its origins back to chattel slavery and to claim that that history is false because it's an oral history is hella racist. 138.238.28.213 (talk) 19:36, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

ThanksJasper23 09:22, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Deletion of Cited Material
The slavery-whipping text has been removed for months, perhaps as long as a year, because there is no historical evidence to support this usage. The source provided is a book a century after the fact, which supplies no sources for the statement. It is irresponsible for wikipedia editors to continue to post this RACE BAITING material. 140.194.140.31 (talk) 16:36, 17 September 2012 (UTC)


 * The material in question is supported with citations from five separate books dating from 1842 to 2000. If you have citations from Identifying reliable sources that provide additional information regarding the etymology of this phrase then it can certainly be added to the article as well. - Hoplon (talk) 21:18, 17 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Someone deleted the slave-whipping text and replace the text with the following.

"The term cracka comes from the Cherokee word which means 'gouge' or 'to gouge.' It was a common practice among Scottish settlers to get drunk and fight whereby a lot lost eyes by gouging. The Cherokees observed this practice and referred to these people by this term which sounds like 'cracka.' That is the origin of cracka. The idea of whipping slaves with bull whips is from history revisionist minds."


 * However, there was no cite. Please discuss. Good health. Geraldshields11 (talk) 14:42, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Whipping
I highly doubt the term cracker has anythign to do with whipping. Does it really make sense to insult someone by calling them something that still puts you in an inferior position? That defies all the rules of name calling, insulting and hatred. Historically, it refers to poor whites in the south who could only afford to eat crackers. Same as lintheads or clay-eaters. Rich whites used cracker as well as blacks who were in a better economic position than the poor whites. I will look into those 3 seemingly bogus references listed because I HIGHLY doubt that slavemaster stuff is the correct etymology. research time! --Yellowfiver 09:09, 29 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I notice that after posting this you must have found issue with the references, because you deleted large passages of the text. For reference, here are the passages from the books used as reference there:


 * Smitherman: "possibly derived from the sound of the master's whip during enslavement."
 * Herbst: "It has been said to derive ... from the whip-cracking done by slaveholders."
 * Major: "..a reference to the whip-cracking slaveholder..


 * How did you find these lacking to support the existence of this theory? - O^O 23:38, 29 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure, there just seems to be an inherent contradiction in that etymology of the word. I'm at my school's library so I'll check these sources.  If they match up, I guess i won't have a case.  I had always been under the impression lintheads, clayeaters, and crackers were from around the same time period. --Yellowfiver 02:56, 30 March 2007 (UTC)


 * One thing I didn't write above; this doesn't appear to be a case where the etymology is known with certainty, instead there are multiple theories. I want to make sure that section represents all the theories, I'm not claiming that one in particular is correct. - O^O 05:25, 30 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Has anyone found any evidence to support or refute the "whip-cracker" theory? Though I doubt the likelihood of this origin, it is certainly plausible. The use of the rhetorical "inferior" position to demean the "superior" is found throughout history from ancient greece to Shakespeare to the more recent; eg: "the master race", "the chosen ones", "New England elite", etc. - Porterlu (talk) 06:22, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

It doesnt take much effort to figure out how "whipping" could be the source of the expression "cracker"... at least in terms of its use as a pejorative. It was originally an expression used by slaves in reference to the hated slave masters... and thus the word had a negative meaning to them. It started as a nickname of sorts for a specific person/profession... Then grew to take on a more general and negative useage over time.

The "n-word", as we now call it, did not start as an insult. It grew into that over time. Its origin is in Latin, was not an insult, and simply meant the color black. Look up the history of the word in Wikipedia... It wasnt until later that it grew into an insult, and even that happened in degrees over time. One could sit decades from now and say its ridiculous to get upset over a word whose origin simply means "the color black"... But we all know its not ridiculous... Its what the word has grown to become that matters.

You are stuck in what historians call "presentism" - you are examining the topic from your own modern day mindset and coming to a conclusion based only on that. You are applying your own present day rationale to a single part of a long sequence, and doing so from your own interpretation alone - that of someone not connected to the topic at all. "Cracker" was an expression/nickname for the slave overseer... He was naturally someone hated... in time the word and its usage grew to become an insulting expression used in a more general sense with wider application.

Its not a word that puts the user in an inferior position... only a white man would see it that way, looking at it in a detached, present day way. Black people using the word in the past didnt see the man with the whip as their superior... They saw him as the hated abuser. 74.89.29.124 (talk) 04:43, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

____

The figurative sense of "crack a whip" didn't occur until the 1940's. This whole thing about "cracker" being derived from the whip of a slave master is ridiculous, dreamed up by folks set on making the term as offensive as possible. The phrase obviously has its origin in Elizabethan times, where it meant "to make a loud noise", and refers to someone who is boisterous to the point of being perceived as obnoxious. Anyone continuing to propose this "slave master" theory as anything other than a folk-etymology proposed by Black Southerners is using Wikipedia to vent their own anger at Southern Whites. Typical. 84.75.168.38 (talk) 09:09, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Popular Culture section removal
I am thinking about removing the pop-culture section as an non-encyclopedic section. It is also unsourced. What do other people think?Turtlescrubber 21:51, 10 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree. If someone uses the term in passing without it generating any controversy or comment then the usage is non-notable. If there are cultural uses of the term that are significant and sourced we can add them to the main body of the article.  ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 22:30, 10 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I think a pop culture section is a good idea actually. Like with the honky article, there were shows (ie. The Jeffersons) which popularized the word and wouldn't be difficult to source. (George Jefferson calling white people "honky" and "cracker".) It was used in other forms of media and television shows, and would help expand the article beyond it's history of the word. In addition, as mentioned above, I think mentioning the double-standard of blacks calling whites this word and it being acceptable, should be briefly referenced. It may take time, but one day, this word could be considered as bad as nigger is. Just never know, considering the past of our human race and the current age of being "pc" (politically correct). Might as well nip-it-in-the-bud. 64.134.54.102 (talk) 03:39, 28 July 2012 (UTC)


 * It should probably be brought back since the Trayvon martin case is just thrown in to the etymology section, and causes this page to be very messy all of the sudden. 12.130.161.101 (talk) 18:22, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Zimmerman Trial
The continued attempts by 99pporg to insert material related to the current George Zimmerman trial into this article is disruptive for several reasons. Many of the assertions made are unsupported, representing little more than the opinion of the user. Some inserted material lacks objectivity, violating the tenet of neutrality. Other material is simply redundant, having been presented in other sections of the article. Finally, the length of the statements place undue emphasis on the Zimmerman trial, which is not the subject of this article. For those reasons, material inserted by 99pporg has been repeatedly deleted or reduced by other editors, only to be re-inserted by 99pporg. This statement is placed, (here and at talk) in the hope that a dialogue can be established to address these concerns. Failing that, the request for a block may be the only recourse. Gulbenk (talk) 19:28, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

'Cracker' as derived from 'cracking' of whips
The prominence given in this article to the theory that the term 'cracker' derives from the 'cracking' of whips over slaves by white foremen is striking--and indeed disconcerting, when one notes that none of the citations given in the Oxford English Dictionary seems to support it. The closest, perhaps, is a reference from the 11 June 1887 edition of the Boston Beacon that alleges that 'cracker' derives from 'cracking' whips, albeit over draft animals, not slaves. I have, accordingly, removed from the article the reference to James S. Buckingham's The Slave States of America, which may have draft animals in mind, too; the original text, which can be found on Google Books, never specifies over what the 'crackers' crack their whips, but the crackers are, in any case, not figured as slave-foremen but instead as poor, antiquated country folk--the article, as previously written, had seriously distorted the significance of the quotation. Spurius Furius (talk) 09:29, 17 July 2013 (UTC)


 * A further edit: Thorton's American Glossary gives no indication that 'cracking' of whips, whence the term 'cracker', ever referred to beating of slaves (draft animals are in mind in all of the relevant citations given there); the prominence given to the slavery-focused etymology is thus wholly unjustified, unless strongly-supported evidence can be adduced (i.e. lexicographical studies with actual primary citations). I have modified the article to match. Spurius Furius (talk) 09:48, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
 * This seems to have found its way back into the article. I am removing all POV and unsupported edits. This is a contentious article. All claims must have multiple, stong and reliable sources supporting the.--Mark Miller (talk) 18:40, 16 May 2014 (UTC)


 * I did a search on JSTOR as well as on google books and found literally dozens of books that mention this. What sort of sources are we asking for so I know what to look for? I have to say, there are a lot of books that acclaim to it, so if it is not true then it is a cultural myth reported across many, many, many different works --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 19:06, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
 * I have no doubt that the term can be sourced as a derogatory term. What I believe has been challenged and I am challenging now, is that the term was derived from slave masters cracking a whip or that that is prevalent as an origin theory among experts and mainstream sources. How do the current sources actually support the claim now?--Mark Miller (talk) 19:12, 16 May 2014 (UTC)


 * The suggested text says that it is a theory as to where the term comes from not the truth. There are quite a few printed sources that say this and that is what I mean by dozens of books mentioning it. Removing it is going against reputable sources and there is no harm presenting it as a theory. Are there any sources that say that this is definitively untrue? --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 19:14, 16 May 2014 (UTC)


 * Wait, I may be wrong. I think the misconception comes because black slaves calling the whip of the white men a cracker, rather than the men themselves . That said, I still found a few sources that asserted otherwise, but they look less reliable . What do you think? --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 19:24, 16 May 2014 (UTC)


 * All things considered, I still think it warrants inclusion if mentioned as being a theory. I had personally have heard it a few times and until a source comes that proves this definitively isn't true it warrants inclusion in this manner --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 19:27, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
 * I should be more specific. I am asking that we hold off with the inclusion until we can verify the content is from reliable sources, published by notable experts in the proper fields and supports the claims as written, specifically that there is a notable theory about the etymology of the term coming from slavery and the crack of a slave master's whip. Let's start there? Can you link to an online version of these sources or can you give us a snippet of the text being used from whatever sources we cannot easily access?--Mark Miller (talk) 20:07, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

Sources for the claim

 * "Full Circle: Africaamerica" by Roderick Batman, AuthorHouse Publishing. Page 189 ,


 * "Black Talk: Words and Phrases from the Hood to the Amen Corner" by Dr. Geneva (that is the attribution given in the reference). Page 100


 * "The Color of Words: An Encyclopaedic Dictionary of Ethnic Bias in the United States" by Philip H. Herbst. Page listed as 6z1.


 * "Juba to Jive: A Dictionary of African-American Slang" by Clarence Major. No page number listed


 * "An American Glossary" byRichard H. Thorton. No page number given.

has already demonstrated that the Thorton source does not support the claim.--Mark Miller (talk) 20:22, 16 May 2014 (UTC) --Mark Miller (talk) 20:22, 16 May 2014 (UTC)


 * I've spent the past hour looking for better sources with my University log in and I'm starting to lean towards retracting my previous point. There are lots of sources that discuss the "cracker people" as having had slaves, as well as the claim that they were called "crackers" because of the sound of their whips. There are also sources that say that the "cracker people" frequently used their whips on slaves. However, I'm leaning towards them being called this by the slaves because of their whipping of them as being synthesis. That said, it is still quite a prevalent idea, and I'm unsure if it shouldn't be included entirely. How long has it been in the article? Is it possible that it has become such a widespread notion because of Wikipedia? --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 20:29, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
 * That is very possible. I have seen the speed in which circular referencing can sometimes take off. But my main concern is that, at least since last year, there have been concerns about this particular point. I recommend it be excluded for now and that further sources that pertain directly to this as a possible etymology be strong enough to our standards before it is returned.--Mark Miller (talk) 21:03, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, it is a particularly controversial topic. There is no doubt that the people referred to as "crackers" were often slave owners so I understand the anger of it being equated so regularly as a slur to some that target other ethnic groups. That said, I don't think such an argument should be based on misinformation and its inclusion may be WP:POINT until we know for sure this is true. We should probably exclude it for now either way until better sources can be found --Drowninginlimbo (talk) 21:16, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

I have just seen this discussion, after I cleaned up the "etymology" section and was reverted. The "slave whipping" etymology is clearly spurious. It is on record since the 1990s as part of "African-American slang" and as such notable in its own right, specifically in the terminologial shift from "poor white southerner" (as referenced by non-poor non-southern whites) to a racial slur used by blacks against whites since the 1960s (but apparently with increasing frequency in the recent racial tensions in the US). It is important for the development of the term, but it isn't in any way credible as the term's actual etymology, which is quite unambiguously recorded in the 18th century. There may be some debate as to the possible reinterpretation, as the "whip" association (in the context of cattle-drivers, not slavers) is recorded for the early 20th century, but that is a full 150 years after the term was recorded. The corn-cracker theory should of course also be mentioned, but as the OED says, this is not a likely origin of the original term, but at best a secondary association of two separate terms. --dab (𒁳) 12:33, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

Old discussion archived
Old discussion has been archived and may be accessed in the box at the right. -THB 20:14, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

This article omits any reference to the pejorative "white soda cracker". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.43.124.244 (talk) 16:06, 5 March 2017 (UTC)

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Florida
I'm a Florida native and I've never been called a cracker. If someone called me that, I'd probably just laugh at them. 24.51.217.35 (talk) 11:01, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
 * ❌ as no edit request was made. use of talk pages to discuss the subject is discouraged.

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I thought...
I thought the term came from the fact that white people's skins was similar in color to saltines, hence the name crackers. Adamv88 02:36, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
 * This is exactly what I was taught. I'll have to look for some sources before including it in the article. Alatari (talk) 03:52, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
 * That I thought also, having been called a "soda cracker" growing up in a mixed race neighborhood in Washington DC in the sixties. When I tried to add that to the article, an overzealous editor kept deleting it, insisting that the term came exclusively from whites cracking the whip on black slaves.

I had always heard the term came from chain-gang rock breakers, that they were referred to as crackers, and the term just grew from there. Not sure where I heard that, but I heard it many times growing up so I always assumed that's where the term came from. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8800:2203:2B00:FC25:78CE:6743:B635 (talk) 02:01, 21 June 2020 (UTC)