Talk:Cradle of Filth/Archive 2

Opening Statement - Article Discussions
This page is primarily dedicated to past Article Discussions on the Cradle of Filth page. All of these discussions are inactive, any new posts should be directed to the Cradle of Filth Talk Page. -  The Haunted Angel  (The Forest Whispers My Name)

Opening Statment
I have rewriten the opening paragrph to confirm to a more npov view, I can only hope that it will please everyone. It would seem to me that this is a page which is frequently vandlised, as every time I have visted it, it seems to have a completly different article. Avador 15:08, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Sodomizing The Virgin Vamps is an Unauthorized Album. Should it be listed?

It is live, however it has tracks on it that other studio albums do not.

http://rateyourmusic.com/view_album_details/album_id_is_98883

http://www.cradleoffilthuk.co.uk/music.html

Maybe their DVDs should be listed? The BBC Documentry? What about Live Bait For the Dead?

Touring Partners
Is there any reason why the bands on the 2003 Ozzfest not listed in the touring partners section? Technically they are indeed touring partners, right? Archenhaust 21:07, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Someone also forgot one of COF's first US tour partners, Rotting Christ. Thus have been added to section accordingly. - Brian W. 08/29/2006 5:41 PM US EST

Jesus is a Cunt
Should controversies regarding the infamous Cradle of Filth "Jesus is a Cunt" t-shirts be mentioned here? Taco Deposit | Talk-o to Taco 00:50, May 11, 2005 (UTC)


 * Can't fathom why not, so long as you keep it NPOV and describe the controversy factually and whatnot. ZPG0705 00:13, 2005 May 15 (UTC)


 * Agreed, it should be mentioned. I was quite suprised to find it missing, it was fairly infamous in the UK.Trench 21:58, September 10, 2005 (UTC)


 * The controversy surrounding this T-Shirt became public with Cradle of Filth members Dani Filth, Paul Allender, and Martin Foul wore the infamous "Jesus is a Cunt" T-Shirt while touring the Vatican City. It is reported by multiple sources that all three members were arrested for disturbing the peace, and later released that night without any charges.


 * I infact find it very ballsy to do such a thing, and it inspired me to buy this shirt online from a european company called Xtra Undergound Fashion


 * I got kicked out of and suspended from school for a while last year for wearing that shirt...god I love rebellion. (Im atheist)

Band Members
According to www.metal-archives.com, Dave Pybus is back in the band and Charles Hedger is not in it anymore, So I put their names in the propper places. Ladysway1985 05:20, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Ok. Thanks much. I was confused for a moment. Much Love, Helena Rayne TearAwayTheFunerealDress 16:20, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Tour dates!
Why add current tour dates? This is completely beside encyclopedic value. There are other websites to provide that sort of things. --Steerpike 21:54, 16 October 2005 (UTC)


 * I agree. Tour dates seem like irrelevant information to have in an encyclopedia. Matthew king 02:16, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Yes. I agree with you both. But just on the subject, I heard they were supposed to have a brief US tour in November. Is that true or just a rumor? Well...tata loves. TearAwayTheFunerealDress 14:33, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

For the record, this discussion was apparently removed from the talk page some time ago, probably by some schmuck who saw fit to paste those tourdates back into the article anyway. It's not helping! Tour dates are completely non-encyclopedic. Visit the official website for that sort of info. The link is right at the bottom. --Steerpike 01:32, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Trivia
I was reading an interview where it states that Dani Filth's favourite band is The Misfits. But on here it says different. Would anyone help clear this up? TearAwayTheFunerealDress 16:24, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Yep I saw something like his favorite band was Emperor. I'd like to know where you saw that it was The Misfits. That's interesting though. Robobot569 12:11, 3 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I have read on many occasions that The Misfits were his favorite band, although I cannot remember the sources (The Haunted Angel 17:11, 16 May 2006 (UTC))

This is what is listed under Dani's Fav Profiles on their official website:

Favourite Music:

(Old) Mercyful Fate, Danzig, The Misfits, Hanzel und Gretel, Dissection, Immortal, (old)Destruction, (old) Emperor, Bad Religion, Philip Glass, Limbo, Iron Maiden, Type O, Wojciech Kilar, Diamanda Galas, Danny Elfman, Jeff Wayne, GGFH, Rammstein, Carpathian Forest, Belisha, Eighties thrash- Darkness, Testament, Violent Force, Exorcist, Slayer etc; classic American hardcore-Circle Jerks, BadBrains, Dagnasty, Uniform Choice, Fear etc; European darkwave, Soundtracks, dark vampyric funeral marches, nocturnal war anthems and heart-rending melodrama.

Take it or leave it.

--Archenhaust 05:03, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

In the trivia section, it says Balls Mahoney (spelling?) wears a Cradle of Filth shirt. He wears an Immolation shirt, not Cradle. Someone may want to fix that. (Unsigned comment by The Bickel, 10th Sept, 2006)


 * Google image search suggests you're absolutely right. Fixed. You could have done that! Cardinal Wurzel 09:18, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Midian
Just for future reference, it's been said that Midian is based on Clive Barker's novel Cabal, and has nothing to do with the biblical city. (Joe 18:23, 30 January 2006 (UTC))


 * If you can find or provide a source for this, it can easily be added to the aritcle. Leyasu 19:13, 30 January 2006 (UTC)


 * The main reason I said this was because in trivia there was a line indicating that Midian
 * was a biblical city

, which I found had nothing to do with it. The topic regarding Cabal is
 * even mentioned in the 2nd paragraph of the Biography.
 * Here's a quote, anyway;
 * "I also enjoy the dichotomy present on this disc, as well. Midian, as some horror fans will no
 * doubt remember, is semi-loosely based on Clive Barker's short story "Cabal", which was remade
 * into the movie "Nightbreed". In this world of Barker's creation, Midian is where the monsters
 * go. For these outcast protagonists, Midian was both a heaven and a hell. Much the same way this
 * grandiose effort by England's CoF is a gratifying lesson on the topic of torment and
 * tribulation" from http://www.chroniclesofchaos.com/Articles.aspx?id=2-1782
 * (Joe 19:20, 30 January 2006 (UTC))


 * I think u miss the point of the Trivia. Its usage is to point out that its not only part of the album and its ideal, but its also the name of a religious place. Not that it has anything to do with the album. Leyasu 01:59, 31 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Midian IS based on the city. Dani Filth mentions it numerous times, even in the live concert on Peace Through Superior Firepower. The Haunted Angel 17:13, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Band photo
Fair enough using a band pic instead of one of just Dani, but I don't think that's the current lineup. That was my thinking behind using just a frontman pic - band pics will constantly have to be changed to keep on top of their revolving-door membership, but if we can stay on top of that I guess it's the better option. Was just being lazy! Also, photos need to be properly tagged - it looks as if Wikipedia will remove the current pic within a week. Cardinal Wurzel 09:21, 8th February 2006 (UTC)

Its not the current lineup, but I liked it better... If you dont you can change it back I dont mind. I will fix the wrong tagging thing, sorry. Im off to that now.....

--Andy5190 23:12, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

There I fixed the tagging.... sorry about that...

--Andy5190 23:28, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Good stuff! Hey, I know what to do - just whack a caption underneath the picture that states what year / era it was taken. You could even do a "left to right: Dani, Adrian" etc etc type thing. Cardinal Wurzel 09:30, 9th February 2006 (UTC)

Hows that? eh?

--Andy5190 02:15, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Genius! Cardinal Wurzel 11:06, 10th February 2006 (UTC)

---

Picture changed, as discussed with Andy (see his discussion page). Cardinal Wurzel 9:54, 19th February 2006 (UTC)

Related Artists?
I think that there should be a section on related artists. Many other band pages have this. For a start maybe:


 * Bathory
 * Emperor
 * Dimmu Borgir
 * Rammstein
 * Testament
 * etc....

Anyone want to add one?

--Andy5190 23:50, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Good idea - you do it! Cardinal Wurzel 09:30, 9th February 2006 (UTC)


 * The problem with these is it opens for a lot of POV. Be carefull what you put on, and provide a source for your list. Leyasu 09:39, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Medusa's noticed you! Find something reflective! But yes, I guess the trick would be to only choose bands that have definite links to Cradle. So any band that Cradle have covered would be ripe for inclusion, any that they're documented as having sited as influences, maybe any they've toured with. Just as long as it's not just an infinite and random list of bands that are a little bit similar. Cardinal Wurzel 11:06, 10th February 2006 (UTC)

Ive cleaned up the list that was an infinite and random list of bands that are a little bit similar. If you want to do a section on bands CoF has toured with, entitle a list as such and include ONLY the bands listed that way. Also seperating lists into 'Touring Partners', 'Influences' and 'Similar Bands' is far more effective, as as such the band list was just a pile of random bands with little to no similaritys to CoF what so ever. Leyasu 19:18, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

It was not a pile of random bands, take some time to recognize other people's work, it was a list of bands that have toured with Cradle. I got the information off of their website, and it is 100% verifiable. I also clearly listed that it was a list of toured bands, and that related bands had the "RA" symbol next to them. I put it your way now, but take some time to look at what other people do before you take aim and fire by saying things like "the list that was an infinite and random list of bands." You jerk. --Andy5190 21:44, 12 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I saw the list for what it was, a very half assed attempt. Next time you want to do something in good faith, please do it properly and to its full extent, rather than a half assed job. Leyasu 22:56, 12 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Fuck you, you motherfucking whore. People like you make me sick. With your "that sucks, you do everything band." Take your dominatrix bullshit somewhere where someone actually cares, cause obviously you have mistaken me for someone who cares about your definition of "half-assed" things. Cradle of Filth and Dani Filth are my fucking heroes, and I dont do half assed nothing for them. I took my fucking time, and you can go fuck yourself.


 * Swearing and insulting me will achieve nothing. You were also the one who attacked me for cleaning up your prose. Wikipedia has ways of doing articles, and yew made a good effort, misdirected but a good effort. Insulting me and telling me to fuck off will not achieve you anything, other than seriously making me believe you really did do an half assed job. Leyasu 02:28, 13 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Thats it, I'm done with you... Just leave this discussion topic alone, once you read this, please delete all of this insignificant argument. One final comment: it was your who insulted my work first... and that pissed me off, I didn't fire the first shot. --Andy5190 23:11, 13 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I did not target you specifically, i targeted your work. You do not delete things from the talk page as its part of an archive. I did not insult you, i did indeed, give my view on your work, for its lack of Wikipedia prose. If i had known you were new, i would of been kinder in my tone. However, i will warn you, that calling people names is a personal attack, which is not allowed on Wikipedia, and can result in temporary and permenant bans from editing.


 * I wont report you for it this time, but i suggest refraining from doing it further now that you have been warned. Ley Shade 00:16, 14 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Oh.... ya now I feel like an ass. Thanks for the warning.... and kindness.... Sorry I was a jerk --Andy5190 00:44, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

I think the list still needs working on. Fair enough, have the bands toured with, and have the bands covered, but related bands? There are potentially hundreds of related bands, and many of the bands put are nothing like Cradle of Filth! The list is already long enough, I say that part is removed. J Milburn 09:10, 11 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Agreed and done. Ley Shade 09:30, 11 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks, that has improved the article. J Milburn 19:14, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Vocal Cords
Does anyone mind if I delete that stupid thing in Trivia about Dani's vocal cords bleeding? Cardinal Wurzel 22.45, 18th March 2006 (UTC)

Done it. Cardinal Wurzel 12:32, 19th March 2006 (UTC)

Roadrunner United on Discography?
Hey guys. I recently added Dave Pybus (Herr Pubis) to the Discography under Roadrunner Utd, as he plays Bass on one of the songs. It occured to me then, should this really be mentioned on the Cradle of Filth page? I know that ⅓ of the band plays on album, but it is not a Cradle album. If the whole band played on the album, that'd be ok, but as it is just two of the guys, I suggest moving it off the page, and instead putting it under the Discography (that probably doesn't exsist) for Dani and Dave. I'm not to bothered either way, its just an idea. The Haunted Angel 22:48, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

That's why it's in the miscellaneous section Cardinal Wurzel 21:11, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I suppose... but its still not Cradle of Filth. Then again it does contain ⅓ of the band anyway =\ - The Haunted Angel 22:04, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, point taken, it IS a bit tenuous. But I do think it's relevant. It's a hard one to call because it's a fairly unusual album. But it isn't a side project or a different band - Dani and Pybus are basically on there representing Cradle of Filth as part of the Roadrunner stable, so for that reason I vote it stays where it is (although there's no reason it shouldn't go on their personal pages in the way you suggested). I guess it COULD go into Trivia, but then people would probably question why it wasn't with the rest of the albums... Cardinal Wurzel 09:50, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah point taken. It is hard to classify, but as I said, I'm not to bothered either way, it was just an idea. I suppose that is why the section it is under is 'miscellaneous' rather then 'EPs and Live'. The Haunted Angel 12:34, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Exactly - we can chuck whatever we like in there! Cardinal Wurzel 19:41, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Bootleg section
Hallo mates, its been quite sometime since I have been around these parts, and let me say, the article is coming along great! (Much appreciation to Cardinal W) I was just looking it over, and I think that splitting the Misc section into 3 parts would be Reasonable. I think their should be a Demos section, Bootleg section, and a Misc section. Whats everyone think? ~Andy Blak 19:51, 12 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Sounds like a plan! Cardinal Wurzel 20:35, 12 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Aye, Captain! I will get to work on it! ~ Andy Blak 00:35, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I liked the older picture better
I don't know, just my opinion because it was more representative of how the band looks (closer up). -Iopq 06:46, 11 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I totally agree... BUT that picture was really out of date. It's an almost totally different band now.  So whoever changed the pic probably does have the right idea, I think.  Hopefully as more promo pics emerge for the new album over the next couple of months we can find something better again.  Cardinal Wurzel 21:48, 11 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I am back. And I am going to make a new, updated pic! Keep your eyes open. Hey Cardinal, whats up, bro? -Andy Blak 23:07, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Bak in Blak! Cardinal Wurzel 20:26, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Please stop
Please stop "fixing" the header capitals, according to WP:MOS, only the first letter in the header should be capitalized unless there is a noun in the header. Michaelas10 08:51, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Album release date
I simply corrected the album release date, as listed on the Cradle Of Filth website. It was pushed back a day and is now set to release on the 17th, rather than the 16th.

Changed back to 16th as per Roadrunner UK site86.139.75.177 19:03, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Nicknames
I might be wrong about this, but it seems to me that, rather than being actual nicknames and pseudonyms, the names like Herr Pubis and Robin Graves are just jokes, printed on one album sleeve only and never used again (the exception being Les Smith who was explicitly called Lecter the whole time he was in the band). Dani is listed as "Harlot Church" (ha ha) on the Thornography sleeve, but presumably we're not now going to list him as Dani "Harlot Church" Filth. Maybe, instead of Dave "Herr Pubis" Pybus and the like, we should just use their real names in the band line-up, and add a bit to Trivia that lists their joke alter-egos. Thoughts? Cardinal Wurzel 18:31, 27 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I think thats a good idea, and i say go for it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.157.94.84 (talk • contribs)

christian shit
someone take the religious shit off the titles of the sections. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.63.207.14 (talk • contribs)

Done. Again. Cardinal Wurzel 09:50, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Erlandsson
An anon just moved Adrian Erlandsson from current members to former members. Might just have been vandalism, but if it was a good-faith edit, is there a source for info that he's left the band? I couldn't find anything. Google search comes up with nothing, nothing on the official Filth site, or their MySpace page, or Adrian's own site or MySpace. Anyone heard anything? Cardinal Wurzel 23:00, 15 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Blabbermouth posted about it yesterday:  -- seems to be legit. 138.227.189.9 14:57, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Proof positive! Cardinal Wurzel 17:18, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Question Regarding Vempire
I was just surfing on Amazon and came to this page:

http://www.amazon.com/Lipslide-Sarah-Cracknell/dp/B000006ZKZ/ref=m_art_pr_1/103-8847686-2095834

This version of Vempire is missing Ebony Dressed for Sunset as the opening track. Is this a rare import or a goof or what? The label is Gut and not Cacophonus. I wanted to include this on the discography page, but this one confused me. (unsigned by Archenhaust)

It's just a weird mistake. Bad, mixed-up listing that conflates the Cradle album with a Sarah Cracknell one. I just looked her up (she used to be in St Etienne - I remember them!) and Gut is her label. Cardinal Wurzel 07:45, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Main page pic
Shall we just use the Cradle logo as the pic in the infobox? It would avoid this problem of having to change the photo every time the line-up changes, and is probably safer in terms of Wikipedia's draconian copyright rules anyway... Cardinal Wurzel 10:36, 18 November 2006 (UTC)


 * It's usually routine for band pages across Wikipedia to have a pic of the band on the infobox, so I personally would want to leave a band pic there... however, I would not be opposed to having to keep updating the pic, if we left an older pic there, I wouldn't be bothered, as long as we said underneath "Cradle of Filth 2004" Or "Cradle of Filth 'Nymphetamine' line-up" or something along the lines. The Haunted Angel (The Forest Whispers My Name) 21:10, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

You must have been writing that as I was adding the new pic! Got a logo in the box now, so see what you think. Put it back how it was if you liked it better before. Cardinal Wurzel 21:30, 18 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I quite like the logo, but again I prefer the band pics. Also, the Dragon logo, despite being a Cradle icon, if we were to have a logo instead of the band pic, wouldn't it make more sense to have the main 'Cradle of Filth' logo/flame writing instead? Sorry if it sounds like I'm bitching at every idea you raise, having a logo is certainly a good idea in comparison to having to keep updating it, but alternatively an older picture from one of their albums could suffice, but as long as we stated that it was an older band line up.... but then we'd have the problem of having the main picture on our page as being out of date =\ What a pickle... The Haunted Angel (The Forest Whispers My Name) 23:47, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I feel that an older band pic would suffice, at least until pics of the new line-up are available, as long as the era was stated underneath. I personally love the 'Cradle Of Filth' logo that's on all their albums, merch etc., so couldn't we combine it with a pic, as I've seen it done on many other band's pages? Thesexualityofbereavement 01:48, 19 November 2006 (UTC)


 * No problem - just a thought. It's back how it was now, with a slightly modified caption.  Cardinal Wurzel 10:02, 19 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Great. I think that we should leave it like this until a new album is released, not keep updating it every time someone leaves with a new member that will only appear in live shows, the albums are only really important mile-stones for updating the band lineup. Oh, sorry if it sounded like I was bitching at every idea you bought up =\ The Haunted Angel (The Forest Whispers My Name) 13:11, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

No, not at all. I agree with you. Just trying to find a way around anons changing the pic at the slightest provocation, as happened the other day. Cardinal Wurzel 14:14, 19 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I'll leave a message there, see if that will discourage them at all. And if they do change it, we just revert it back =D The Haunted Angel (The Forest Whispers My Name) 15:03, 19 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Lol - you're too nice =P The Haunted Angel (The Forest Whispers My Name) 17:53, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Stuart Anstis
Somebody just added this line to Bideford:
 * Stuart Anstiss [sic], one time lead guitarist with black metal band Cradle of Filth went to School in Bideford, and now runs a guitar shop there.

Is this true? I've tried looking him (and Bastardsun) up but there's nothing about it on the net. Please help! Totnesmartin 17:26, 26 February 2007 (UTC)


 * A couple of interesting points, why would he be the "one time lead guitarist" if he was in it for 5 years? Also, the only lead guitarists Cradle have had are Paul and Gian (after 1994 at least). Another weird point is why would his surname be "sic"? A surname is a surname, it can't be spelt wrong -_-" ≈ The Haunted Angel //The Forest Whispers My Name// 17:36, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
 * "One time lead guitarist" means he was once lead guitarist, not that he only played once for them. The surname is spelt wrongly: see that extra s? Names get spelt wrong all the time. Totnesmartin 17:59, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
 * But that's just the thing, surely you only add the (sic) part if you are quoting, and the quotation is wrong? If his name only has one "S" at the end, then we remove the S and the (sic), there's no need to spell it wrong if it's not a quote, which it isn't. I will take a look through my Cradle albums (or just check the Wiki articles) to see what albums he is from.. the name doesn't ring a bell, especially as he was apparently lead guitarist for 5 years.
 * Ignore what I just said, I just realised it was you who added the (sic) because you realised that it was wrong. Sorry! Lol, I thought you were quoting it from the page, and the (sic) was included in the page itself, that's why I was confused! Lol, apologies. ≈ The Haunted Angel //The Forest Whispers My Name// 23:07, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Apology gracefully accepted. I know nowt about the band, btw (I've heard one song - and even that was a cover), I'm just keeping an eye on articles in my home county's wikiproject. Totnesmartin 16:46, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Okay, this is more or less off topic, but I just want to take the opportunity to make sure: [sic] (written in a quote, with square brackets ) is (in general, not just here) used to indicate that it's not a part of the quote but added afterwards, as opposed to (sic), which would be in the original quote, correct?
 * It's always [sic], in brackets, and it always means "we know this is gramatically/otherwise wrong, but we have to write it this way because it's a quote." See Sic. = ∫ tc 5th Eye 14:09, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Hmm... weird wording perhaps, but I hope my last sentence makes sense. -- x -Flare- x {{sup|{Talk)}} 09:39, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Bam Magera and Ville Valo
Does anyone here know if Bam Magera had anything to do with the collaboration of Ville Valo with Cradle fo Filth on Thornongraphy? Bam is friends with both of them so I wonder if he brought the two of them together.

~ Archenhaust


 * Personally, I doubt it, but there's been no mention of Bam having anything to do with Cradle outside of Viva La Bam, or at least, none that I know of. ≈ The Haunted Angel //The Forest Whispers My Name// 22:12, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Cradle of Dirt????
"The lead singer from the band Dani Filth is in another band called Cradle Of Dirt. They are a new band and will be releasing an EP soon. The name of the band is similar because they wanted it to be like eachover."

OK, a simple Google search for "cradle of dirt" yielded THREE results, none of which were remotely related to Dani Filth. I'll remove it.


 * Pure vandalism, the person who put it there has been warned. ≈ <b style="color:indigo;">The Haunted Angel</b> //The Forest Whispers My Name// 15:24, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Drink Bleach
What's all this "Drink bleach" business? Dani mentions it in an aside on Live Bait / Heavy, Left handed, and a Google search pulls up a lot of people referring to it but nobody actually explaining it. Sounds like it's something to do with Dani flippantly claiming to drink bleach in order to get his voice like it is - is that right? Anybody confirm it, with a source? Cardinal Wurzel 08:36, 17 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I have no source for it, but I HIGHLY doubt that he would do that, probably a sarcastic comment that he once made. (Sounds like him). Maurauth 11:36, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I realise he didn't really do it - I just want to find out what the story is. Cardinal Wurzel 12:05, 21 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Heh I didn't mean to imply that you did thing that ;p But there's lots of people that would believe it if it's written. Maurauth 12:15, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Feriluce and what it means
Ok so i think alot of people will laugh at me because of this, but this is for those people that have not yet figured out.

I did a google search, dictionary and other searches to figure out what this meant and could find no possible answer when suddenly it hit me

read Dani's line from Damnation and a Day's Hurt and Virtue Rebles truced with Feriluce (in truth few could resist)

Feriluce is simply Lucifer almost backwards. Lucifer means Light *Luci* Bringer *Ferra*. But what he has simply done is reversed it Ferre Luci which would make him not the "Light bringer" but merely the Bringer of Light. That to me kind of changes the name alot. tell me how much you laughed because you already knew what it ment. 216.201.194.106 18:26, 2 May 2007 (UTC)Johnny


 * Lol, don't be so pessimistic. But nah, I didn't know that. Often when I see a word in Cradle lyrics I don't understand (which is somewhat frequently) I assume that because Dani does alot of research for his songs, it's the background for some story I'm not familiar with - usually ancient Religous stories, or maybe something by Lovecraft. Still, very nice interpretation :D ≈  T he Ha unt ed A n ge l  17:55, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Why thank you very much -er- Haunted angel? It's the only conclusion i have come up with so far that seems to fit. i try to do alot of research when it comes to things like this. 216.201.194.106 18:26, 2 May 2007 (UTC)Johnny


 * Haha, just call me Haunted if you want, most other people do. By the way, try and sign your posts with four tildes ( ~ ) after each post :) ≈  T he Ha unt ed A n ge l  18:08, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

will try to :) 216.201.194.106 18:20, 2 May 2007 (UTC)Johnny

Nymphetamine's Cover Girl
Does anyone recall the name of the girl who appears on the cover of the album Nymphetamine? I absolutely know I read the name before, a long time ago, and I google image searched her name and it was most definately the same girl, but I can't seem to remember the name anymore. I tried google and yahoo, but all it gives me are weird MySpace page links, and peoples blogs about their girlfriends, and album reviews. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.98.146.96 (talk) 23:41, 4 May 2007 (UTC).

The models in the Nymphetamine artwork are all listed in the CD booklet as "Dryads and Sylph", but only by their christian names. We never got any further than that... There's a bit of a discussion archived here: Cardinal Wurzel 09:54, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

tags
I recently went through the whole article and properly cited each of the references. In future, if anyone has any references to add, please put them in Template:Cite web format, instead of just pasting the URL between the tags. ~ Spe  bi  07:36, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Failed GA

 * GA review (see here for criteria)

Her are some things to fix before nominating again. Get rid of the trivia or merge it into the main article; trivia sections = bad. Get rid of the excessive lists at the end (we don't need to know every collaboration, tour partner, etc.). The genre in the infobox is "Disputed". Fix that. I don't really care what you put, but for all someone reading that knows, they could be a ragga group. At the very least, they're some subgenre of rock, so put that. Almost none (if any) of the images have fair use rationales. Add them. There isn't a single citation in the entire history section. ShadowHalo 06:55, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) It is reasonably well written.
 * a (prose): b (MoS):
 * 1) It is factually accurate and verifiable.
 * a (references): b (citations to reliable sources):  c (OR):
 * 1) It is broad in its coverage.
 * a (major aspects): b (focused):
 * 1) It follows the neutral point of view policy.
 * a (fair representation): b (all significant views):
 * 1) It is stable.
 * 2) It contains images, where possible, to illustrate the topic.
 * a (tagged and captioned): b lack of images (does not in itself exclude GA):  c (non-free images have fair use rationales):
 * 1) Overall:
 * a Pass/Fail:
 * a Pass/Fail:

More advice
I was asked to take a look at this article. Overall, its a pretty good article. Could still use a bit of work before going for GA again. Here's some advice (note: I wrote all this without seeing the comments above): Hope this helps.↔<span style="font-size:11px; font-weight:bold; font-family:verdana, sans-serif;">NMajdan &bull;<span style="font-size:9px; font-family:verdana, sans-serif; color:#000000;">talk 21:12, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Given the overall length of the article, the lead should be a little longer.
 * Get rid of the "Roughly speaking" in the lead or reword the sentence.
 * Switched refs to WP:CITE format.
 * The article overall very much lacks sourcing. Of 12 in line citations, 10 are in one sentence (and 11 are in that paragraph). The rest of the article really needs in line citations.
 * Per WP:MOS, citations come after punctuation.
 * All of the fair use images on the page need rationale.
 * The Trivia section, basically, do what the tag says.
 * Consider combining the following sections: Films, Television appearances, & Books.
 * I don't think the Related artists section is needed. At the very least, consider making the Bands covered and Collaborations sections into a 2 column table.
 * You have two References section. This needs to be fixed. All references should use the WP:CITE format.

Another fail
Not everything was addressed from last time: It's close, it just needs a little more work. You can contact me again when you think it's ready.--SeizureDog 06:12, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Images still need fair use rationale. Too many album covers cluttering up the page.
 * No images of the band?
 * Fix statements like "Global sales were impressive." It really doesn't help just to source the comment, you need to show how they sales were impressive and not just tell us that they were. See Avoid peacock terms.
 * Instead of one of the many album images, a picture of one of the shirts mentioned in "The Music for Nations era" would be nice.
 * Please replace all curly quotes (’) with straight quotes ('). The curlies feck up in my browser.
 * Tidy up your citations. Use Template:Cite web
 * You should really try to get an audio clip of one of their songs. You really can't understand what Cradle of Filth is without hearing them. I remember someone telling me to listen to "Haunted Shores" and then latter learning that all of that gibberish screaming was actual lyrics and just barely believing it.

Advice from Lucifer
I remember clearly stating not to use lyric sites (read Copyrights and commercial sites (read Spamming) such as Amazon.com as sources. I'm telling you one more time as I'm going to remove them, but should they be re-inserted I'll have no choice but to report such behaviour to ANI. LuciferMorgan 17:02, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

I think you have me confused with someone else. Cardinal Wurzel 18:39, 20 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Hmm ok.. I cannot find the message I left so I'll assume good faith and presume you're correct. I hope you realise though that linking to lyric sites violate copyright and commercial links also cannot be used for citations. As concerns GA status, good luck bringing it up to the required standard. It does not meet the standard yet, though hopefully your reviewer will help you with some decent feedback when he fails it and you'll actually use it. citeweb asks for retrieval dates and not even these have been added, and the article is full of weasly terms. If you wish to know what annoys me, it's the fact you've renominated the article and haven't even been bothered to address the concerns already highlighted in past GA reviews. You mentioned on my page about the past two GA reviews, but you haven't even addressed their concerns, and are therefore wasting GAC's time - address people's concerns, and nominate after that. LuciferMorgan 19:01, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Hey, I really resent that. They are not bad faith nominations, and we've dealt with the suggestions both times. Suggestions from the last review were:
 * Images still need fair use rationale. - Done
 * Too many album covers cluttering up the page. - Is that just opinion or are we actually contravening a guideline? I don't really agree.
 * No images of the band? - Nothing suitable in Commons, and nobody has yet come forward with a non-free image. Using recognisable logo instead at the moment.
 * Fix statements like "Global sales were impressive." It really doesn't help just to source the comment, you need to show how they sales were impressive and not just tell us that they were. See Avoid peacock terms. Done.
 * Instead of one of the many album images, a picture of one of the shirts mentioned in "The Music for Nations era" would be nice. - Done
 * Please replace all curly quotes (’) with straight quotes ('). The curlies feck up in my browser. - Not done, because I don't understand and can't see the difference between the two.
 * Tidy up your citations. Use Template:Cite web - Done, but not by me. Will add dates retrieved.  easy enough as all retrieved on the same day!
 * You should really try to get an audio clip of one of their songs. You really can't understand what Cradle of Filth is without hearing them. I remember someone telling me to listen to "Haunted Shores" and then latter learning that all of that gibberish screaming was actual lyrics and just barely believing it. - Not exactly done, but we now have an external link to a site with sound samples (although I suspect you'll now tell me it's a site we shouldn't be linking to).

That's what's been going on in the time since SeizureDog did his last review, and that's why I re-nominated today. If you think there's more to do then give me some more suggestions. You could even help! Cardinal Wurzel 19:20, 20 May 2007 (UTC)


 * SeizureDog's third point was the following - Fix statements like "Global sales were impressive." It really doesn't help just to source the comment, you need to show how they sales were impressive and not just tell us that they were. See Wikipedia:Avoid peacock terms. This is a prime weakness of the article, and this is mainly why the article will fail GA. It also is full of original research, and needs major work. LuciferMorgan 19:26, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Okay, that's all fair enough. But you can see my point: Seizure Dog told us we were close to GA and that there were just a few minor adjustments to make, which we've made (I remember taking out "global sales were impressive" because we didn't have the figures to back it up. What other "peacock terms" are we guilty of?  I don't see it). You're now saying that we're nowhere near GA and the page needs major work. Which of you is right? Looking at your record with featured articles and whatnot it looks like you're a trustworthy advisor, but it's completely out of order to accuse me of bad faith. You sound pissed off, as if you've told us this a million times. You haven't. Nobody has. Give us a list of things to work on like Seizure Dog did, and we'll work on it. Haunted and I are trying to make a good page - you're acting like we're dicking around to be deliberately irritating. Cardinal Wurzel 19:49, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Your points are fair enough upon inspection, though I suggest you withdraw your GA nomination. Up to you if you do or not, but I've also sent a rather fuming message to the GAC talk page about "waste of time" nominations, but if this genuinely isn't your fault because you've had some average reviews then fair enough and my apologies. I have taken those two offensives two times though and someone keeps adding them, though I have no idea whom - if you're a patroller of the page look out for this. The reason why I "act" like you're trying to be deliberately irritating is because of all the peacock terms etc., but maybe you're not so familiar with the criterion. If you wish for me to give you a list of problems, I will, but I'll just say when I review articles I focus on any problem I can find - if you still want the list give me a shout. It would be beneficial if you knew someone who owns the Gavin Baddeley book on the band. LuciferMorgan 19:57, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Sure - I'll withdraw the nomination, and if you want to give us a new list, that would be very helpful. No rush - looks like you're busy! I'm going to move this discussion to the talk page of the actual article, if that's ok with you? Cardinal Wurzel 20:04, 20 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I have no problem in you moving the discussion to the main talk page of Cradle of Filth if you wish, and I'll get that list to you. I'll add to it over time etc., but if you have the Baddeley book that might do you a few favours. And on another note, you're very perceptive - I am very busy, but with off Wiki stuff (webzine work). LuciferMorgan 20:10, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

List
This is a list I'll update of things that need fixing...


 * The largely self-produced album led to Cradle's U.S debut,[10] despite criticisms of its sound quality.[11]

The sentence is worded weasly. If you wished to comment on concerns regarding the album's sound quality, instead of saying "there were criticisms of its sound quality" you would say "Critic Pedro Azevedo of Chronicles of Chaos webzine criticised the album's sound quality, citing "production faults"". LuciferMorgan 20:24, 20 May 2007 (UTC)


 * A step back from the orchestral grandeur of Damnation and a Day,

This is a critical analysis, so can be deemed original research. To use this one would have to say something such as; "Deemed by Critic X of Y magazine as a step back from the orchestral grandeur of Damnation and a Day,.." LuciferMorgan 20:32, 20 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Despite the circumstances of its release however, V Empire, as with Principle, was enthusiastically received by Cradle's growing fan base.

How can you actually assess whether an album was well received by a band's fanbase or not? You cannot. Furthermore, is it encyclopaedic? No it's actually crufty and frowned upon. With albums, when you're trying to assess their worth or lack of worth there are important points to consider;


 * 1) Chart positions.
 * 2) Gold / platinum certifications.
 * 3) Awards the album has garnered.
 * 4) Critical feedback.

With the final point, I don't mean if one critic said the album was good then you can say "the album was good". What you can say is "Critic X of Y magazine said it was good". LuciferMorgan 14:17, 21 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Okay, I think I've dealt with all that now. What next?  And where's a good source for album sales figures?  Oh, and I think you've got the wrong end of the stick a bit re the gavin Baddely book.  Lucifer Rising isn't a history of Cradle or anything; it's about satanism and popular culture.  They're just mentioned in it in passing.  His "Gospel of Filth" is in the works, but it's not out yet. Cardinal Wurzel 18:35, 24 May 2007 (UTC)


 * About that, the "upcoming book" tag was removed by Maurauth on the Gospel of Filth article, as he claimed the book was out... I take it he's mistaken? ≈  Th e H au nt ed A n ge l  23:10, 24 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Amazon said it was out, but that could have been a mistake. ≈  Maurauth  <sup style="color:green;">( nemesis ) 23:23, 24 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Righty, well I havn't really been following that much, and I havn't seen it on sale, so I'll assume it ain't out yet - I'll put the template back up :) ≈  Th e H au nt ed A n ge l  23:27, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it hasn't materialised yet (I work in a bookshop so I've got my eye out). Amazon list it as "4-6 weeks delivery" which is generally their code for "we can't get this". Cardinal Wurzel 15:42, 25 May 2007 (UTC)


 * It's officially out on October 31st 2007 according to the publisher's official website. Most sites are just copying their date off Amazon, which is incorrect. LuciferMorgan 16:09, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Dani Filth
If anyone has a free image of Dani Filth that clearly depicts him could you upload it for Dani Filth, as the current one is being disputed. I know I posted this on the wrong page before, but I expect a lot of people have this page on their watch list, than just the Dani Filth page, and may be able to help. Thanks. ≈  Maurauth  <sup style="color:green;">( nemesis ) 19:05, 29 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Try seeing if someone will donate one at www.flickr.com. LuciferMorgan 19:09, 29 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I'll try but it's hard to convince people when they realise their picture will be up for grabs by anyone for commercial purposes. ≈  Maurauth  <sup style="color:green;">( nemesis ) 19:32, 29 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I definitely agree with you on that - I personally wouldn't release a picture, but then again let's hope others don't think like me :) LuciferMorgan 20:39, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Not everyone takes pictures in order to make money off of them... Not a dog 21:06, 29 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't actually do pictures at all, so if that's an insinuation it was rather inaccurate. LuciferMorgan 21:11, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
 * An observation, not an insinuation. Not a dog 22:27, 29 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm a prosumer, if you will, photographer and was still wary of giving up my photos for relatively unknown bands. I sent out a few emails on flickr, but some of those images I doubt are owned by the flickr members. ≈  Maurauth  <sup style="color:green;">( nemesis ) 17:03, 30 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Common do have a picture of Dani Filth http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Cradle_of_Filth_2005_-_Daniel_%28Dani_Filth%29_Davey.jpg


 * and other band pictures: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Cradle_of_Filth
 * Gordal 18:00, 23 September 2007 (UTC)|

Is the cover art strictly needed?
The cover art is lacking in rationale specifically for use on this page, and I am wondering exactly whether it is needed. What grounds do you see for including it? As far as I see, there is no discussion of the cover art itself, and so the usage of it here appears to be entirely decorative. What reason is there for keeping it there? J Milburn 17:48, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Gosh, Milburn. We're awfully sorry. Cardinal Wurzel 18:57, 28 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Great, now we have but one picture in the article save the Dragon one. Well, at least the Vestal one was the best one there anyway. We need more pics now =/ ≈  The Haunted Angel  19:15, 28 June 2007 (UTC)


 * What happened to the "2006 tour line-up" picture? I thought good old Cardy had permission to use that picture from the photographer (Cindy Frey, I think). Stupid wikipedia copyright junk! Death2 01:33, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Heh, yeah... Even though we had permission from the photographer to use it, it still doesn't count as a "free" image according to Wiki guidelines, because she hasn't given up her rights to it. It's not freely available for use by absolutely anyone, so it doesn't count. We have to follow the rules or Wonderboy Milburn will get us! Cardinal Wurzel 08:45, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

It isn't cover art, it's a logo, and in this context logos are allowed. Emmaneul (Talk) 09:41, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Yup, the logo is fine - that's why it's still there. It's the cover art and the photo that had to go. Cardinal Wurzel 10:44, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh, I see, I replied to something old... :) Emmaneul (Talk) 10:59, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Band Name
I was just reading St. Augustine's Confessions for a class and found the following: But it becomes an obstacle if he thinks his view of nature belongs to the very form of orthodox doctrine, and dares obstinately to affirm something he does not understand. But such an infirmity in the cradle of filth is sustained by mother charity, until the new man 'grows up into a mature man and is no longer carried about by any wind of doctrine' (Eph. 4: 13). (V. vi (10)) Just thought this might be helpful to y'all in some way.

-Richard Paez. University of Florida English Department. richardpaez@gmail.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.136.34.159 (talk) 22:41, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, Richard - that's really interesting! Unfortunately, since nobody seems to have noticed before, we can't add it to the article because, by Wikipedia's rules, it constitutes "original research". There must be a way though - I'll try and get it in! Cardinal Wurzel 11:50, 4 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Wow, that's pretty fucking cool! I thought Dani was just sitting around one day and thought "Hmm, Cradle of... Filth! That sounds cool!" Hehe ≈  The Haunted Angel  19:21, 4 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I heard their band name was originally going to be "Manger of Filth" but they weren't allowed to play shows with that name or something, so they changed it... which may not be true but it makes sense to me. No source. = ∫tc 5th Eye 20:35, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Is/Are
I've taken this to the talk page at WP:ENGVAR to see if we can get a consensus. It's about 50/50 so far. Cardinal Wurzel 11:50, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

And the answer is: "is" is technically gramatically correct, but "are" is generally accepted because, while "band" is a singular noun, its inference is plural. See synesis. Y'know, I learned something today... Cardinal Wurzel 19:30, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Category
shouldn't the category Category:Roadrunner Records artists be added to the page, since they're signed to roadrunner. Balthazar (talk) 03:59, 26 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Yeah - go ahead and add it if you wish. ≈  The Haunted Angel  Review Me! 16:24, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

i was not sure what category you wanted this posted under, but the 2008 and Onward section needs updated. The Thornography tour started in 2007 and the band toured with Gwar later that year on the Viva La Bands tour. There is a sample of the new album that we have made availible on the Roadrunner website and I can check for link accessibility if approved to edit. Kfutch (talk) 22:39, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Order of the Dragon
What does the medieval order have to do with Cradle of Filth, nowhere in this article does it mention, is it a fanclub or something, it just shows a picture which claims to be based off of the medieval one (which its clearly not, the Order's symbol uses an Ouroborous dragon with no circle around it, no moon, its not even culturally the same kind of dragon from what I see from the Austrian Museum sketch). I'm deleting until you give a reason for the picture, and drop the "a slight adaptation of the medieval original." unless they actually have a source (OMYGOD yes, sources you lazy potatoes) from Cradle or their representitives saying its a modification of the original. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.137.207.191 (talk) 09:28, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Thats alot better, although your source seems to be a vampire fansite, thats not a respectable source, thans not even an eastern European dragon, it looks alot more like a modern firebreathing British dragon, Slav dragons tend to be more like winged snakes or hydras and less lizard like. The picture here http://www.rodoslovlje.com/medieval_serbia/eng/history-dragon.htm, here , here http://www.ucs.mun.ca/~emiller/dragon.html and here http://bp2.blogger.com/_8CgdlVIS6eA/Rhlb2FKjSFI/AAAAAAAAABk/ipZN8Y1Tigo/s1600-h/order_dragon.jpg (look carefully at the yellow circle in the red) are infact based off of the real Order of the Dragon symbol, as kept by the Austrian Museum I believe. Furthermore, your source should be from Cradle saying they based the modern symbol off of the Order of the Dragons, otherwise it is original research to say that. Your also still missing the point of this, this isn't a place to talk about how much you like Cradle or how much you know about them, your supposed to provide information to people who know nothing about Cradle of Filth, like me, actually write a sentence in the article that the Order of the Dragon is the name of their fanclub, when they did that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.137.207.191 (talk) 01:35, 4 March 2008 (UTC) Yes, lazy potatoes, I figure what I really wanted to say would be offensive. Good article otherwise, a hell of alot better than the Order of the Dragon article, apparently Zulu theology has some relevence to Eastern European medieval Orders. I think I'll download Damnation and a Day later, before purchase. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.137.207.191 (talk) 03:58, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

You are an illegal downloader of music and I shall tell a policeman. Cardinal Wurzel (talk) 19:48, 4 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Roffle... ≈  The Haunted Angel  20:03, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Call your American police all you want, besides I usually buy what I download, if its worthwhile, too many videogames are $80 and not worth $20. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.137.207.191 (talk) 10:52, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Save it for the judge, buddyboy. Your ass is going down for six to ten this time, for sure! Lieutenant Wurzel (talk) 11:48, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Good luck tracking him down. User:Zaru —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.162.35.230 (talk) 21:54, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

What for, I'm not breaking any laws where I love, maybe you didn't get me calling you America, but I'm not. I buy stuff for because they deserve it, not for the law. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.137.207.191 (talk) 11:14, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Blimey, you can't make a joke round here, can you? Cardinal Wurzel (talk) 17:04, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Not one that involves me in jail, no. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.137.207.191 (talk) 07:32, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Damnation Chart Position
Anyone know where Damnation and a Day stood on the top 200? It's not listed on the album page..


 * According to Rockdetector it got to number 44 in the UK and number 140 in the US. Cardinal Wurzel (talk) 21:45, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

The Picture
The picture at the top of the page is fake. It's like action figures or something. Someone should replace it. CheesePiggy (talk) 06:24, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Definitely looks real to me. = ∫tc 5th Eye 07:19, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, I don't think it's fake but sure it's not very good.I agree Dani and Paul look like action figures but that's not what bothers me.It's just...they look really ugly on that picture.. :\ Xr 1 (talk) 21:13, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

yeah, i will try to look for a picture that... better suits the page. Chipthief00 (talk) 03:34, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Paul's face looks deformed...CheesePiggy (talk) 04:08, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

haha, thay both do. i can see how they kinda look like action figures too. if i find a good picture ill post a link here and let you guys check it out first. Chipthief00 (talk) 05:21, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

I think this looks pretty good, check it out and add it to the page if you agree. heres the link http://api.ning.com/files/i3lDdQTdYACLwVhSZzUIDwcm8zwN2GyGazwhExe8ZuE_/cradleoffilth.jpg. Chipthief00 (talk) 02:59, 27 June 2008 (UTC)


 * You can't use promotional / professionally-taken photos, such as that one, under free use, since free photos are available (i.e. live pictures). = ∫tc 5th Eye 03:06, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

ok, thanks for mentioning that. ill keep that in mind from now on and ill keep looking. Chipthief00 (talk) 12:39, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

What about the picture that I've found? It shows all members during a live show, seems pretty recent: http://www.showclix.com/event_pictures/Cradle_of_Filth.jpg Zaruyache (talk) 22:06, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't know how to change the picture...so anyone else want to update this using the above listed picture? It seems good to me72.72.222.152 (talk) 02:00, 3 July 2008 (UTC)


 * But the picture has to belong to you. Or failing that, the person who took it has to waive all rights to it and allow its free distribution.  Cardinal Wurzel (talk) 23:06, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

not as bad a picture, but it is outdated (drummer change since) and you do have to reference the source if it is going to be used. Updated pics (and their references) can be found on the COF website. Kfutch (talk) 22:14, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Associated acts
Is it alright if i add some other bands associated to cradle? Chipthief00 (talk) 21:47, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Of course, as long as they have shared members. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 22:10, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Along those lines, I have a few to add, also ≈  The Haunted Angel  17:47, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
 * right, shared members as in have been listed in both bands. my bad. Chipthief00 (talk) 18:53, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
 * No problem. ≈  The Haunted Angel  18:55, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

EP's
I was just wondering if "Bitter Suites to Succubi" should be relisted as an EP? It seems to confuse people that there are 9 albums listed as studio albums, yet only 8 (including Godspeed) are actually studio albums magnius (talk) 13:40, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

new sections
please someone re-section this article doing the sections like

Early days(1991-1994) The Principles Of Evil Made Flesh(1994-1996) etc.

so it will look better. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Deathmagnetic08 (talk • contribs) 17:40, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

What happened to the genre box?
Really, what happened to the genre boxes on *EVERY* band? I don't know where else to ask about this, but since this page seems to see a lot of activity, I'm guessing that someone here might know..Zaruyache (talk) 01:01, 10 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Here's your answer ≈  The Haunted Angel  02:06, 10 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Good riddance, too. = ∫tc 5th Eye 03:42, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Dani's voice progression
Shouldn't there be a section about his obvious changing in styles over the years, and especially the drastic change visible (or audible) over their most recent works? With Midian Dani's style changed to a more pronounced, "cleaner" style than previous works. Damnation and a Day continued on that style, although with better production. Nymphetamine showed a continuance from the previous style, although with some experimentation with "cleaner" vocals, like on "English Fire." Thornography brought a very different style to Dani's vocalizations, or atleast to the way the the vocal tracks were mixed during recording sessions. Growling became less prevalent, with more high-pitched yelling becoming more prominant. The general sound of Dani's voice also changed with Thornography. It just sounded different. That style was continued on Godspeed on the Devil's Thunder..

Any thoughts on expanding on this charcteristic of the band? Zaruyache (talk) 01:25, 4 November 2008 (UTC)


 * The fact that Cradle have evolved from a black metal-esque band over the years has been mentioned, and I think that this would be included in such mention - anything else could be considered WP:OR ≈  The Haunted Angel  01:31, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

I was more really trying to say how Midian, Damnation and Nymphetamine all contained very similar styles, but then with Thornography it sounded almost completely different. It went from dark, evil growling to a more "wimpy" screaming..Not so much wimpy, just lacking that growling aggression. Zaruyache (talk) 15:32, 5 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Sounds like original research to me, but if you can find a reliable source discussing Dani Filth's vocal changes, please feel free to cite it. --Stormie (talk) 23:37, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

I think if you scream for a living for 15 years, your voice is going to change whether it's intentional or not. Plus I'm sure Dani had some sort of gross yeast infection in his lungs or vocal chords sometime around Damnation and a Day, which took him several months to recover from, so that might have had an effect too. Can't find a source we can use though, after a casual google... Cardinal Wurzel (talk) 12:46, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

No real harm in original research on this subject, I mean anyone who's listened to Nymphetamine and Thornography can tell you that there is a major difference in the overall sound of Dani's vocals. It's more like general knowledge.Zaruyache (talk) 03:02, 9 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Dani sings most of the the last album with clean voice, but growls it on stage. At this point of COF's history we can wonder why he didn't growl on the original records of TMAOO, and if the next album will be recorded with clean voice too. Nico92400 (talk) 12:39, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

On may 14th the song Right Wing of the Garden Triptych was released, we can hear Dani sing with his growl like before TMAOO. Maybe COF tried clean vocal to get more audience, but the last tour, with older songs and Dani screaming like in late 90's, made fans around the world so enthusiastic that COF know they can make more brutal metal than TMAOO. Nico92400 (talk) 15:41, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

Sarah
I quit the vocalist sarah from the band members seccion because she is not more with the band now, Dani fire her from the band because she wanted too took the principal vocal place. Go to the ofcial web. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Digimortal (talk • contribs) 17:02, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Official site still lists her as a band member. Unless you have a source that you can link, please do not remove her again. magnius (talk) 20:09, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Member section
I'm wondering why two of the previous members are listed under "Former Member" while the dozen other former members are listed in its own article? And why is Rosie Smith listed there? She only contributed as a live member...

Ahoibakk (talk) 19:59, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Discography
Re the brief albums-only discography that was added and then removed.. agreed, Cradle of Filth discography covers the details well, and to a level inappropriate to the main article. But it does look a little strange to have a section which consists solely of a "Main article" link and nothing else.

I took a look at the first 5 bands/musicians in the Featured articles list - AC/DC, Alice in Chains, Audioslave, Black Francis and Kate Bush - and all five of them have a discography similar to the one Hobosapien20 added (although as a bulleted list not a table). So, taking this as the standard for featured-quality music articles, I have restored that brief album list to the Discography section. --Stormie (talk) 21:28, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Derrrr
The link to the album midian actually takes you to the page of midian, not the album. someone might want to fix this —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.230.215.189 (talk) 03:47, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
 * --Stormie (talk) 04:39, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Past members in the infobox
I've removed this section, since there's an entire separate page for past members, and only including six out of the possible 30-odd isn't really on: surely saying those six are more notable than any of the others constitutes somebody's POV? If there was a way to change the heading to say "selected past members", that might be another matter, although I'm still not sure how you could encyclopaedically justify more significant notability of some past members over others. Thoughts? Magnius has blanked his talk page and refused to deal with this question, despite flinging around accusations of vandalism. Cardinal Wurzel (talk) 20:08, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
 * They are all notable past members, and you should have discussed this as soon as your opinion was challenged. The past members section is a valid part of an infobox, it wouldn't be there otherwise. We should come to an agreement over which members are worth including and which ones not, rather than just wiping the lot. Certainly, if they have appeared on a studio album then they are in in my opinion. magnius (talk) 20:52, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Again - "they are all notable members". Yes, and the others? Look at it this way. If this was in the main text of the article, and it said "Cradle has had 30 members, but the most significant are..." and listed half a dozen, you'd be the first to tag that as unsourced POV, and stick a "who?" on it. Why is the infobox different? Just because infoboxes can have that section, doesn't mean they have to. I'd think it was more relevant to bands who've only lost one or two members. It's not designed to cope with revolving-door memberships like Cradle's. Cardinal Wurzel (talk) 20:58, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

And lo, Magnius did cease to debate, and instead went off to indulge in his hobby of dancing thrillingly close to the edge of the 3RR... Cardinal Wurzel (talk) 20:10, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

I don't think the Andrea Meyer linked under Former members is the right Andrea Meyer (it links to a chick-lit writer). I don't have the Wiki-knowhow to fix this, however. It looks like it should be this one Andrea Haugen but apparently she appeared under the name Andrea Meyer, or so that page says.82.69.110.136 (talk) 14:40, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

A Missing Video
Cradle of Filth has a movie called Cradle of Fear and I fail to see it mentioned anywhere in the article.

BallBoo (talk) 13:09, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
 * It's mentioned in the "Music for Nations era (1996-2001)" section. magnius (talk) 13:30, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Relation between Dimmu Borgir and Cradle of Filth
Why is Dimmu Borgir mentioned in the infobox as a related article? I see how they are associated acts, for in both bands' long histories I'm sure they've shared some members, as have many more European metal bands. But I don't get how and why only Dimmu Borgir should be mentioned in the infobox. Am I missing somehting obvious here? Is Dani Filth also secretly Shagrath or something obscure like that? Please enlighten me! Thank you ^^ Snikch (talk) 07:52, 31 May 2010 (UTC)


 * After perusing List of Cradle of Filth band members and Dimmu Borgir, it looks to me that the sole connection is Nicholas Barker. "He was the original drummer for British metal band Cradle of Filth, playing on the first three albums. After leaving in 1999, he joined Norwegian symphonic black metal band Dimmu Borgir." --Stormie (talk) 05:00, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Offensive Picture
The picture on cradle of filth's page that features a nun masturbating is very offensive to some people and every time it was removed it was not vandalism. This needs to be taken off. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.157.170.81 (talk) 22:13, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Well the fact is that this is Wikipedia not a church. Since one of the biggest things about this band is their effort to offend the majority, the picture needs to stay. The incidents involving the shirt were a notable part of the band's history and are more than worth mentioning. So, deleting the picture with no more reason that it hurts peoples' feelings is indeed vandalism.Korylytle (talk) 05:12, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
 * This has just been anonymously removed again - along with all text relating to it - so I'd like to echo the above, and add that, last time this page was peer-reviewed, it was recommended to us that we include this information and an image to illustrate it. This is a significant part of Cradle's history; it's certainly true that, especially in the 1990s, a lot of people who'd never heard a note of Cradle's music were still aware of the band because of their merchandise, and this is absolutely the most notorious / infamous example. People seem keen to remove it because "it might offend others" (it's never caused offence to the actual remover, you notice). My feeling is that someone likely to be offended by it would be unlikely to stumble across this page by accident. You'd have to actively be looking up Cradle of Filth and this image for the purpose of feeling offended, which would kind of make you the butt of the joke... Cardinal Wurzel (talk) 09:01, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Total Fucking Darkness
I recall the genre section mentioning a demo called total fucking darkness, which was reminiscent of death metal. I know we can't include it without reliable sources, but does anyone know if there is any truth to this claim? [Unsigned by 75.34.20.83]
 * Have a listen and see what you think: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEtNeFHbTpw    Cardinal Wurzel (talk) 09:20, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

The members page
I did some much needed revisions and updates on the member page. updated the timeline, extended the members by year to incude 2011 line up changes, added sarah jezebel to the EP's (she was a member at the time, so idk why she wasnt on there already), included the labels of which each release was released by(i know its not 100% necessary, but it gives the reader an idea of what members were associated with what labels), added that mark newby-robson was credited for orchestrations even though he was listed under keyboards, mentioned that all of the fictional jared demeters contributions to V empire were written and perfformed by stuart, who was also lead guitarist. Jared demeter was played by more than just the 2 mentioned, however this list is a mission for a different day. I Also mentioned when members used other names on recordings so as to match the actual album credits, such as dave pybus who was credited as Herr Pubus on Nymphetamine. Please have a look and tell me what you think. I couldnt find credits for evermore darkly, so i credited it to ashley ellylon since she was the keyoardist/backing vocalist at the time (at least i think she was). if this is incorrect, feel free to correct it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.193.126.189 (talk) 04:17, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Band members
Just FYI: Articles for deletion/Martin Marthus Škaroupka. My proposed solution is to convert the band members section in this article into subsections with a short summary of the notable members and a short description of the others. - file lake  shoe  15:41, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

That's cool, but probably belongs more at List of Cradle of Filth band members than on the COF page itself. Cardinal Wurzel (talk) 23:44, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

"Studio albums" discussion
I added Bitter Suites to Succubi to the article's discography section and it was removed. According to the current article on studio albums, it is objectively a studio album. It is too long to be an EP, and does not fall under any other type of release. Just because Dani has called it an EP and people just aren't used to seeing it in the studio album section aren't valid reasons for the contrary. Lachlan Foley (talk) 09:31, 2 September 2012 (UTC)


 * But V Empire and From the Cradle to Enslave are album-length studio recordings too, and you seem happy with those as EPs... Honestly, it IS a kind of grey area - I do see where you're coming from - but in terms of Cradle's particular catalogue, it makes more sense to term this as an EP. It was always explicitly described as a stop-gap release - the band were very up-front about that, and Dani being on film calling it "essentially" an EP is not irrelevant, as you seemed to claim the other day. I think that guy's opinion on what it is rather counts for something. It's a handful of new (at the time) songs, with a few extra bits and pieces. It's not part of the sequence of full-on albums - it's just a rattle bag. There was Midian and there was Damnation and a Day, and this was just an almost-throwaway thing in between. That's no reflection on the quality - personally I really like it and I think it gets overlooked. But while technically it may be right to call it a studio album, in this particular case it's more accurate to consider it an EP. That make sense? And not that this is a particularly essential point, but it's been listed as an EP since well before I started working on these pages, and I got here in 2006. So you're the first person in at least six years to have a problem with it.
 * While we're here, do you also want to talk about Midnight in the Labyrinth? Again, similar argument. It's not part of the main sequence of full-on studio albums. So while technically again, you may be right to call it a studio album, it's also an inessential side-release, entirely built out of old songs (despite their being new versions). So there again, "compilation" is more helpful and accurate than "album", I think. No? Addendum - actually, I wonder if it's better described as a Remix album, like Rob Zombie's Mondo Sex Head or American Made Music to Strip By. But then, "remix" implies something different to me than "orchestral" reworkings...
 * Anyone else have any thoughts? Richard BB, Stormie, are you listening? Cardinal Wurzel (talk) 09:51, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
 * It will be down to consensus then. As for Midnight in the Labyrinth, I would immediately class that as a studio album – I personally don't think it matters whether an album is specifically marketed as the being "the next studio album"; I think if it falls under Wikipedia's objective description of a studio album, which both these releases do, then it is one. If not, the description needs to be changed; that is, if it isn't already correct, which I believe it is. Lachlan Foley (talk) 11:03, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
 * It's not really about "marketing"; it's about "intention", if you like. But there's an inconsistency in your argument, because if you're going by the absolute letter of Wikipedia's own apparent criteria, then you'd have to concede that Midnight is a Remix album: it absolutely "consists of re-recorded versions of earlier released material". Since both Studio album and Remix album are both completely unsourced articles however, I'd say they were pretty worthless as rules. Also, I'm genuinely interested, why are you not making the studio album claim for V Empire, for example? Again, that seems inconsistent according to the rules you're citing. Cardinal Wurzel (talk) 12:38, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
 * They are poor articles, but since that's all there is at the moment, "studio album" seems to me to still be the closest representation of these two releases. I've never known of a remix album to consist of primarily re-recorded tracks; I have always seen them, as their title suggests, as "re-mixes" of already-recorded music, and would never ever have considered Midnight as such.


 * I suppose it is subjective what one considers an EP... just from an immediate, unbiased look at Vempire ' s track listing and length, I would not consider it a studio album, and vice versa with Bitter Suites, which appears to me to be a classic studio album. Bitter Suites is over thirteen minutes longer than Vempire and has ten tracks, as opposed to Vempire ' s six, which is a contributing factor. Lachlan Foley (talk) 05:19, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

To me, the studio albums are the ones currently listed on this page. I would not call Midnight a studio album, as the songs are not original -- they are reworks. As for everything else, I agree almost completely with Cardinal Wurzel. I'm not even sure that Bitter Suites is even "technically" a studio album. There are a good chunk of songs that are simply reworks. As such, I wouldn't even have the article read that it's a "stop-gap studio album", Cardinal. I'd change it simply to "EP". –  Richard  BB  18:41, 2 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Richard - groovy! And do you reckon "compilation" or "remix" for Midnight?
 * Lachlan - really, I don't think you're at all as objective or unbiased as you think you are. Your message above admits that both Studio album and Remix album are poor articles, but you then basically say that we should be abiding by Studio album because you personally agree with it, and ignoring Remix album because you don't. That's also not an unbiased opinion about V Empire's length. That disc is, what, 40 minutes long? So purely objectively, since it's ten minutes longer than Reign in Blood and about the same length as the first three Iron Maiden albums, I'd have thought, by your rigid personal rationale, you'd have to call it a studio album. But the point I'm making (and Richard too) is that, within Cradle's particular canon, it's an EP. And within that canon, so's Bitter Suites. It's a subjective thing, but it takes into account the context of the rest of the band's output. That seems logical to me, and apparently to Mr BB too. Again, I'm not quite seeing the internal logic behind your arguments. Cardinal Wurzel (talk) 08:19, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Furthermore, I'd add to that that we aren't allowed to cite Wikipedia as a source. Now, while we're not strictly including a citation in the article, you, Lachlan, are citing the studio album article as a reason why BStS is a studio album. I think it's better to go with what is commonly accepted: that it's an EP. And in answer to your question, Cardinal, although I'm personally fine with it continued to be called a compilation, I think it's more accurate to call it a "remix album". –  Richard  BB  18:23, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
 * And just to really ram the point home, all the official press releases, blogs and interviews around The Manticore and Other Horrors so far are describing it as the band's tenth album. Which means... Cardinal Wurzel (talk) 08:47, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Listing former members
Matiasmoritz, I do not believe we need all of the former members on the main article, especially given the fact that there are so many of them and that we have a whole article dedicated to them here. Please stop edit warring. –  Richard  BB  20:25, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

As a side note, do we really need session members on this main article? What do you think, Cardinal Wurzel? –  Richard  BB  21:36, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't really care. Short answer no, but if it keeps the peace it's not like them being there is terrible. They're kind of current members... Cardinal Wurzel (talk) 18:46, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I'll assume there's no consensus, and leave it as it is. –  Richard  BB  21:31, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

In popular culture
Do we need / want an "in popular culture" section? I always think those are really lame - especially when there's only one item in them. Cardinal Wurzel (talk) 18:55, 23 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Cool, nobody cares so I'll delete it. The IT Crowd stuff is on the Nymphetamine page anyway. Cardinal Wurzel (talk) 08:18, 26 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Actually, the only reason most people in the UK outside of metal fandom have ever heard of CoF is because of the IT Crowd references. --Ef80 (talk) 23:21, 17 April 2016 (UTC)


 * That's an incredibly sweeping statement. Can you substantiate it? People outside of metal fandom who watched The IT Crowd, sure. But "most people in the UK"? Really? Cardinal Wurzel (talk) 05:25, 18 April 2016 (UTC)


 * It would have been more accurate to write any people in the UK. This isn't an attack on CoF. The various metal genres have zero exposure beyond their various fanbases and the whole point of the IT Crowd joke was that the character was a great fan of a bizarre sounding band of which the audience would be completely unaware. CoF are now familiar to lots of people thanks to the joke, most of which have never heard a note of their music. --Ef80 (talk) 12:15, 18 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I'm sure you're right; I'm not really arguing. It's just that, as I've said before, it's weak to have an entire 'in popular culture' section that's only got one entry. And those lists are always really just 'we spotted this thing we like in these other things' anyway. I guess we could feed it into the paragraph on the Roadrunner years and Nymphetamine, in the way that it's mentioned on the Nymphetamine page itself. But it just feels a bit, "so what?" They were namechecked on a sitcom. Yay. Cardinal Wurzel (talk) 21:27, 18 April 2016 (UTC)


 * There you go; I added it. Cardinal Wurzel (talk) 21:31, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

Darren White
Darren J. White (also Ex-Singer of Anathema) never played drums. Metal Archives is also wrong on that. Original Drummer was "Darren Garden" it seems: demoarchives.com/Bands/Cradle of Filth-Eng/cradle of filth.asp. 193.67.103.254 (talk) 15:02, 14 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Cheers for that. Have corrected the members page. Looks like the confusion is they both go/went by "Daz". Plus White did some vocals on Cradle's first album, and Cradle covered an Anathema song, so there's also that relationship that's obviously lead everyone astray! Cardinal Wurzel (talk) 07:34, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

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Number of images
Is it just me or are there way too many pictures in this article? We could probably easily cut 5-10 of them.172.87.33.194 (talk) 15:25, 13 May 2022 (UTC)


 * I do agree, there is too many. As it is focusing on the band itself, I believe it should have pictures of the band performing. Though, I can compromise and say that the picture of Dani Filth can remain on the first subsection about the band's early years, as he has been there since the band began - but I won't rule out maybe one of two pictures of current or former members. Every other picture should placed diversely left and right, that's my suggestion. HorrorLover555 (talk) 18:16, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
 * The Jesus is a Cunt shirt should also remain, given the controversy surrounding it. — <i style="color:#8000FF">Czello</i> 18:36, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

Jon Kennedy
For many years, just like with Darren White, there is an unclear status on Jon Kennedy, being a bass player in 1994-1995 and in 1991-1992. Was he an original bass player for Cof or not? Original bass player's name was also Jon, but i can't recall his last name and i'm pretty sure these were two different persons. Another reason is the latest statement from Was Sarginson, he told that "Dani was doing high screams on the first demos way before even meeting Jon Kennedy". The only demos where Robin didn't play bass were the first two. 31.207.230.72 (talk) 18:46, 6 December 2023 (UTC)


 * what's more, Dani Filth reffered to Kennedy as "their third bassist" in his farewell instagram post to Jon. 31.207.230.72 (talk) 19:43, 7 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Just having a look at Dani's Insta post you mention, and he actually didn't write the bit you quote - he's re-posting from a French Cradle of Filth account run by someone else. Interestingly Dani's post and the original don't quite match. The original says "Jon was @cradleoffilth 's first bassist, participating in several of their demos and was also called back to replace Robin "Graves" Eaglestone during The Principle of Evil Made Flesh Tour." Dani's says third and omits the line about demos. So it appears that Dani is correcting the original there and that - you're right - Jon Kennedy is the third bassist and therefore not the Jon that played on Orgiastic Pleasures Foul. But it's a slightly clumsy edit since Dani's version still says JK was "called back" - back from where? (I guess it should be "called in"?) You don't say where the quote from Was Sarginson comes from. I had a quick scrub through the Scars & Guitars podcast from 2022 but I couldn't immediately find it there (although I could easily have missed it). Cardinal Wurzel (talk) 13:49, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Yup, looks like someone editing List of Cradle of Filth members at some point weirdly decided Jon Pritchard and Jon Kennedy were the same person. I've now separated them. Cheers for spotting that. I don't usually get involved with band member stuff. Too much like hard work. Cardinal Wurzel (talk) 14:04, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
 * what's more, SJD herself hinted that Jon was never an official member of the group. He filled in for tour and yes, performed on the first version of Dusk..., but wasn't legally considered a member. So i feel really confused about that. Maybe he was supposed to become one, but left the band too shortly. Maybe it's now appropriate to list him in a members section since his contributions, but technically he wasn't a member durning his tenure in a band. 31.207.230.72 (talk) 14:28, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
 * Was Sarginson wrote that in a comment section of Scars & Guitars podcast with Sara Jezebel Deva. His profile is PappaWas1975. I also remember metalarchives CoF's page had two different profiles for the bassist in 1991-1992 and 1994-1995. Not sure about now, but funny enough, Darren White was listed as their drummer for years there. 31.207.230.72 (talk) 14:14, 8 December 2023 (UTC)