Talk:Craig Murray/Archive 1

Images
There is a picture of Craig Murray on his CV page. Are the pictures on the Foreign and Commonwealth Office website suitably licensed for inclusion on Wikipedia? If not, where else might we find a picture of him? Tim Ivorson 14:57, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

earlier disciplinary action?
This claims he was removed from his post in October 2004, but also discusses effects in July 2004 following a discplinary action that isn't otherwise described. Can anyone provide information on this? --Delirium 06:55, Oct 17, 2004 (UTC)


 * I think 18 charges were made against him by the FCO and he was told that they were secret, so he couldn't form a defence. Then, all but two minor charges (being drunk at work and misuse of an FCO vehicle) were dropped. It should be mentioned in the external links and I might get round to adding something. Tim Ivorson 10:11, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Craig Murray standing for election
Craig Murray is now standing as an independent candidate in the forthcoming election in the UK. He is standing against Jack Straw the Labour Foreign Minister in his Blackburn constituency. www.craigmurray.co.uk

even -handed naming?
Why only name the daughter and not his son? Both or neither, I say. 161.74.11.24


 * Because I couldn't find his son's name. What is it? Tim Ivorson 13:05, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I don't know but I'll ask him.


 * I see that you removed the name of his daughter (Emily) in an edit that I otherwise approve of. I'd prefer it left in. The name was in a newspaper, so it's only what's already widely known. It doesn't take up much space. Tim Ivorson 17:36, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I've added the children's names: Emily & Jamie. The source is Murray's book, Murder in Samarkand. Anthony.moore 14:38, 19 August 2006 (UTC)Anthony.moore 19 August 2006 16:39


 * Thanks, Anthony.moore. Tim Ivorson 2006-08-20

Straw
Jack Straw has not been Home Secretary since 2001. He is Foreign Secretary. I don't know how to change the hyperlink, could someone please change that?

Election
Did he lose his deposit? It seems to me that neither the BBC nor the pro-Murray sites say. I think that a candidate needs 5% of votes cast to keep his deposit. Is that right? The BBC says that he got 5.0%, but that appears to be rounded up. Tim Ivorson 11:21, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

Michael Wood legal opinion
I have changed the headline of this document from "arguing that it is legal to use information" to "arguing that it is illegal to use (but legal to possess) information", since that is what the legal opinion actually states.

Craig Murray (Producer)
Need to add a disambiguation link and page for Craig Murray the producer http://www.craigmurrayproductions.com/

Cleanup... et cetera
There is a lot of work to be done. I have started changing the external links into references, but it appears that omission of facts even in the links provided is commonplace in this page. This has a lot of the same problems, and the pov-ness that Andijan massacre does... Ya ya ya ya ya ya 17:13, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Could you please explain what is totally disputed about this page?82.41.97.213 21:20, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
 * There are numerous unsourced claims. Source them and I'll remove the tag. Otherwise it stays. For an example on how to source content, look at the way I've done it so far in this article. Ya ya ya ya ya ya 21:30, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Then why not use a more appropriate tag than "totally disputed"? For example citecheck or just disputed. You are not totally disputing the article, you are just asking for more citations.82.41.97.213 23:19, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
 * No, I dispute the article's accuracy and neutrality. If you can source the pov to specific sources then i'll remove the tags. Ya ya ya ya ya ya 00:04, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
 * It is an article about a person who holds a well documented POV. The article gives his views and also cites negative criticism of Murray. Could you give examples of exactly why you feel the article itself (rather than the subject's opinions) is POV. 82.41.97.213 13:19, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
 * What you're saying simply is not true. It's not well-documented. There are numerous unsourced statements in the article. The burden to point out the unsourced pov is not mine. I've already pointed out what's unsourced. Ya ya ya ya ya ya 17:14, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually it is up to you. According to NPOV_dispute you should have done the following if tagging an article as POV. You haven't done so but just pointed out that certain claims are unsourced. That does not logically imply POV and that's why Wikipedia allows a dispute to be characterised as lack of citations or POV. Given time, I'm sure I, or others, can source most of the statements. Craig Murray has made his views clear time and time again in the UK media and nobody has claimed this article is not NPOV until you said so.

How to initiate an NPOV debate

If you come across an article whose content does not seem to be consistent with Wikipedia's NPOV policy, use one of the tags below to mark the article's main page. Then, on the article's talk page, make a new section entitled "NPOV dispute [- followed by a section's name if you're challenging just a particular section of the article and not the article as a whole]". Then, under this new section, clearly and exactly explain which part of the article does not seem to have a NPOV and why. Make some suggestions as to how one can improve the article. Be active and bold in improving the article. 82.41.97.213 17:43, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

"all male staff"
The article states that Murray said he had an all male staff - from my recollection of his book (Murder in Samarkand) this is not the case - any ideas? Anthony.moore 13:54, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Feel free to remove it if it's unsourced. Ya ya ya ya ya ya 17:14, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
 * This is backed up by reference 2 "The envoy who said too much" The Guardian Newspaper. 82.41.97.213 18:01, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I've changed the wording to prevent misunderstanding - the article now clearly states that "all-male staff" refers to the department - the word 'it' previously caused ambiguity, hence my original question. Thanks for the references - I think (after a quick look) that they are consistent with the book.Anthony.moore 18:57, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Writer and broadcaster
What can possibly be POV about that statement? And it is stated explicitly on the link I quoted at the top left. 82.41.97.213 21:33, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
 * It is not stated in the article and it's irrelevant. He's a politician. That's it. Provide sources that say otherwise and it can stay. Ya ya ya ya ya ya 21:37, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
 * It is stated on the link right under "Craig Murray". He has written a book "Murder in Samarkand" and he frequently speaks on television and radio. To me that makes him a writer and broadcaster82.41.97.213 21:43, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Re-add writer with a source talking about Murder in Samarkand. Broadcaster is not applicable unless he has a radio show. Name the show, cite the source. Ya ya ya ya ya ya 21:55, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Removed NPOV tag
As the editor Ya ya etc has ben blocked for being a sockpuppet, and upon review of the arguments presented above, I have removed the NPOV tag. Craig Murray has a very definite POV: the article documents the man and his life, without endorsing the views. If certain sections of it need citation, then other editors are welcome to tag them discretely.

I have also removed the details about Murray's children. Although not explicitly stated in Biographies of living persons, I think it is a reasonable interpretation of the "Presumption in favor of privacy" listed in that article. Their father is notable; they are not; and he is not notable for being a father (unlike, say, some guy who keeps siring twins). BrainyBabe 15:58, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Rectorial Election
While I fully believe those claiming The Courier count is wrong, it is true that Wikipedia does not allow "Original Research" - ie you must be able to provide a reference other than "I know that" -especially when what you know does not match a "reputable" press report. However the reference can be to a written document and the official University documents would do. If anyone can cite the exact document and author (returning officers names) or other authoritative document then please add it to remove the confusion. Otherwise Wiki policy is clear - see No original research. Citizensmith 00:34, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm a University of Dundee Student and I got an official email about it. As follows:-

"Craig Murray was elected Rector of the University on Friday 16 February 2007 for the usual 3 year term. The vote was:

Murray - 632 Nicol - 582 Spoilt papers - 5

Dr I K Francis Academic Secretary

Message distributed to: Postgraduate Students, Undergraduate Students.

[Hermes I] Distribution http://www.somis.dundee.ac.uk/hermes/ "

Hope that helps?
 * Good enough for me anyway... If you read the article history you'll see a few months ago a certain user started deleting almost everything about Craig Murray that wasn't backed up with a reference. I just wanted to avoid that happening again - not just be annoying :-) - Citizensmith 11:35, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Member of winning University Challange team?
The Scotsman reports Murray as a member of the team which won University Challenge in 1983. But this private page  doesn't list him as a member. Can anyone confirm this either way? Rwendland 11:52, 29 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Solved it, he was the reserve, but took part in oldies rerun in 2002. Photo of Murray doing the rerun at . Rwendland