Talk:Cramm

Sources for US-branch of the family
Dear authors, can we please discuss changes regarding the potential family members of the noble family of Cramm here, instead of starting an edit war? Is there any proof of family membership regarding persons from the US with a similar name? Can sources be provided which are acknowledged by the German nobility (e.g. Genealogisches Handbuch des Adels or Gothaisches Genealogisches Handbuch)? Rathold (talk) 06:55, 2 May 2023 (UTC)


 * Thank you. I'm tired of editing the names out. Once there are sources that can prove that the American Crams originated from the German noble family von Cramm I'm happy to let it be. 149.243.232.3 (talk) 13:41, 3 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately the person adding the unproven family members is not using a Wikipedia account and seems not be interested in providing sources for the applied changes. I added vandalism warnings to the user pages of the corresponding IP adresses. If that behaviour continues I'd report vandalism on this article. Regards Rathold (talk) 11:48, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Hundreds of pages of sources were added at the same time as the citations and were used by others to make non American additions. This is a false statement. 2600:1700:F860:2290:184F:20EF:4004:2F40 (talk) 15:06, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Please provide references to sources in your edits. Regards, Rathold (talk) 15:10, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Please see above they were supplied at time of edit and used by someone else for inclusion of Dietrich. I believe the source validity and connection is not the issue but rather the 'nobility claim' as that would not have been made in the 18th century by Americans entering into a republican revolution or subsequently living in a republic. 2600:1700:F860:2290:78E4:9761:2A4E:8082 (talk) 16:41, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Sources were provided in links and were used to add Dietrich. Other sources are available but as these amounted to hundreds of pages and cited court, church and legal documents (all unavailable for Dietrich who was added as a result of same source) considered them sufficient.  The connection should not be questionable given usual criteria.  Nothing is ever entirely certain but there is more evidence than for most of the history.  If the objection is to do with the change in country and dropping the article because of differing political systems that is a different matter.  There is no desire to be inaccurate. 2600:1700:F860:2290:184F:20EF:4004:2F40 (talk) 14:59, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, no sources and references were part of you last edits of this article and you did not contribute to this discussion. Noble families are well documented. Please check official sources (e.g. Genealogisches Handbuch des Adels or Gothaisches Genealogisches Handbuch). Please be aware that similarity of names is not sufficient proof of membershop of a noble family. Repeated vandalism of this article can not be tolerated. Regards, Rathold (talk) 15:05, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Anyone living in a republic as a citizen is no longer noble. Claiming membership of nobility and historic line of descent are two different things.  To call history vandalism is dishonest.  When the guide you mentioned was published the Americans would have made no claim of nobility as they were living in a republic as they would not now.  Sources and references were given. 2600:1700:F860:2290:184F:20EF:4004:2F40 (talk) 15:15, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
 * And of course this was codified as America was entering the revolutionary period and not long before nobility was abolished in Germany. 2600:1700:F860:2290:184F:20EF:4004:2F40 (talk) 15:16, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Please see comments on potential sources below. Regards, Rathold (talk) 15:18, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Hundreds of pages of sources were given with addition. These sources were then used for other additions.  Good faith would require a description of the deficiency and all citations should be held to the same standard of proof. 2600:1700:F860:2290:184F:20EF:4004:2F40 (talk) 15:05, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, no sources were part of your edited version (see comment above). Regards, Rathold (talk) 15:06, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes they were provided as links so available to all as the documentation was so lengthy that it would have been cumbersome to add it as a single note. The documentation was originally compiled in cooperation with the keeper of the German family records and was published (not privately) and corroborated previously and subsequently.  If it should have been added in another format I apologize. As it had been used to add Dietrich I had assumed it had been seen and read. 2600:1700:F860:2290:184F:20EF:4004:2F40 (talk) 15:10, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Please check Citing_sources for details on how to add citation to an article. As already mentioned: Please be aware that German noble families (including family members living in other countries) are well documented in the official publications of the German nobility (already mentioned above). Please check wether these sources can provide proof regarding the family membership of the persons you want to add. Not every relative of a noble house or person with a similar name is also officially a member of this house. Regards, Rathold (talk) 15:15, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Again the publication that you site is from the American Revolutionary period. The American family left England prior to the English republican revolution more than a hundred years before that.  They would not have considered themselves 'members of the German noble family' when this was published as they were in America.  As my sources were used to document DIetrich I find this a bit disingenuous.  The sources were compiled with the cooperation of the keeper of family records.   2600:1700:F860:2290:184F:20EF:4004:2F40 (talk) 15:21, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
 * If you want the persons mentioned in your edit recognized as decendants of the house of Cramm, Wikipedia is probably not the right place to achieve this. Please contact the corresponding organizations of the German nobility.
 * If these persons did not consider themselfes members of the house of Cramm, I don't understand why you want to add them here.
 * But let's be clear: You were informed about missing sources in your edits multiple times and warned that this will be considered to be vandalism. It's you decision how to proceed. You will probably respect the dignity of the House of Cramm the most if you stop this behaviour.
 * Regards, Rathold (talk) 15:29, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I will wait to cite links to avoid causing annoyance. They more than meet the citation criteria but I want to be clear as to whether the issue is descent or claim of membership from the eighteenth century going forward which certainly would not have been made as they were living in America. 2600:1700:F860:2290:184F:20EF:4004:2F40 (talk) 15:28, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
 * The corresponding literature mentioning members of noble families is still published and updated until today. Please check the corresponding official literature if the membership of these persons can be proven. If you can only proof that the persons are related to the house of Cramm, it might be a better solution to add this information to the articles of the corresponding persons. What do you think about this solution? Regards Rathold (talk) 15:47, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
 * This was published during the American revolutionary period and after the English revolution so neither the Americans nor the Germans would desire their inclusion. This would be to do with politics rather than heredity.  If documented history is the standard they should be included.  If the standard is in Germany or neighboring continental countries claiming noble house membership from the date of this publication going forward they should not.  It is fuzzy as nobility was later abolished in Germany.   2600:1700:F860:2290:184F:20EF:4004:2F40 (talk) 15:26, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Descent is well sourced. The English and American revolutions would preclude inclusion in either of these sources although the change from the use of Von Cramm to Cramm then Cram is well documented and sourced in England.  The traditions and patterns of intermarriage would diverge in the subsequent centuries in specifics if not in societal 'level' as the English intermarried with their English equivalents as did the Americans. 2600:1700:F860:2290:78E4:9761:2A4E:8082 (talk) 16:46, 6 May 2023 (UTC)
 * No acknowledged source, no mention of the persons. Regards, Rathold (talk) 17:35, 6 May 2023 (UTC)