Talk:Cramp/Archive 1

text replaced
I replaced the text below as it comes virtually word for word from a page linked to by the article (http://www.disabled-world.com/artman/publish/what-are-cramps.shtml)

"Nocturnal leg cramps are sudden, involuntary contractions of the calves that occur during the night or while at rest. Occasionally, muscles in the soles of the feet also become cramped. The sensation can last a few seconds or up to 10 minutes, but the soreness may linger. The cramps can affect persons in any age-group, but they tend to occur in middle-aged and older populations".

Robertbrockway 07:45, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

tool name
Cramp is also a tool, but I'm afraid I don't know enough English to tell much more about it, see in stead

Salaman, R. A.: Dictionary of Woodworking tools ISBN 0-04-440256-2

--Baskholm 10:31, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

Better sources
I think this article should have more reputable sources (i.e. no digitalnaturopath.com) Start with http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/musclecramps.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.12.190.130 (talk) 08:29, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Dangers of cramps
I think the sudden extreme pain and resulting loss of judgment and decision-making ability associated with cramps should be mentioned. This can be dangerous when encountered in situations such as swimming, driving, or biking. More expansion on how cramps can be caused by overextending muscles, such as when yawning, would be nice.
 * Good point. I also wonder if there is any evidence that cramps can cause damage to muscle tissue, and if such damage is possible is it reversible? Pgr94 (talk) 23:47, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Nocturnal Leg Cramps
"An unrelated condition is restless legs syndrome, an unpleasant sensation that is relieved by moving the leg, but which rarely includes cramping or pain."--If it's unrelated, why mention it? Koberulz 12:24, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Because the cure is the same FinalWish 02:29, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

The article no longer is explicit about RLS being different from cramps. Which may be unfortunate, since some web information does wrongly confuse them. -69.87.200.59 (talk) 10:43, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Causes
This most important section of the article needs a great deal of work. Right now it is an impressive-sounding collection of nearly useless fancy phrases.

The concept of cause in this case applies at many different levels. We want to understand the immediate technical local scientific anatomical chemical cause of the involuntary contraction of a voluntary muscle. And then we want to understand what causes that. And then we want to understand what causes that!

Logically, this should start with a little summary of the ordinary sequence of the brain or spine sending an electrical/chemical signal to a muscle. Then we could be told what is going wrong with this normal picture in the case of a cramp. Then we could be told what the background causes of that are. Then we could be told some practical ways of possibly fixing the problem.

As things stand, I don't understand the cause, and I'm not convinced anyone does.

It is particularly notable that just part of a major muscle group may highly contract, which you could not do on purpose. This aspect of how much of the muscle is affected must contain clues about what level the mis-function is happening at -- it would seem to suggest that the misfunction is fairly local to the muscle? -69.87.200.59 (talk) 11:09, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Self-induced cramp
"Self-induced cramp is brought on purposefully by individuals for the purpose of stretching muscle in a position where standing or greater movement is difficult or impossible. For instance, certain workers or craftsmen may find inducing cramp in the lower legs enables them to stretch desirable muscle groups without the need to physically stand in tight spaces."

This section makes little sense, and should be greatly improved, or removed.

A cramp is a prolonged involuntary spasm of a muscle. So "self-induced" is a hard concept to apply. Not impossible, but certainly requiring a detailed explanation.

A cramp is a muscle CONTRACTION. The wording above refers to stretching. So how does this make any sense? -69.87.200.59 (talk) 10:49, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Muscle groups work against eachother. As one muscle contracts, the other stretches.  Cramps can be induced voluntarily by overstressing muscles in certain ways.  Inducing the cramp is voluntary in this case, but the muscle movement of the cramp itself is involuntary.  I agree this section should be improved, but what I just said is off the top of my head, I have no source.  I do think however I will edit it to make it seem less like a reccomendation.  It sounds like a pretty bad idea and Wikipedia is NOT a doctor. -Verdatum (talk) 19:03, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I couldn't find any sources that mention the term "Self-induced cramp" in regards to stretching, so I just removed it altogether. While it's certainly possible to induce a cramp, that isn't terribly interesting/informative in itself, certainly not without a Reliable Source. -Verdatum (talk) 19:14, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Euphemism?
In the phrase "and in some people while they are exercising at night.", is exercising at night a euphemism? If so then we should say what we really mean :) DavidFarmbrough (talk) 10:44, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

I have been getting increasing frequency since june 2000. In addition a patient at an elderly residence was in tears over his leg cramps because he was out of control medicine. He was a total double leg amputee. The pains were real, but there were no legs for the cramps to have been generated from. Are some cramps just a neuralogic problem, or does the nervous system play a larger part than represented here? I truly would like to hear the explanation of this tangent of the problem. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.7.38.18 (talk) 13:53, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
 * See Phantom limb, but please remember, this is not a general discussion page, it is intended to discuss improving the article. If you find peer reviewed research regarding a neurological connection to cramps, it would be a welcome addition to this article. -Verdatum (talk) 16:26, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

'Cramp' / 'Cramps'
The article uses both 'Cramp' and 'Cramps' with no explanation. I suspect this is a BE/AE issue, like Math / Maths ('Cramp' is BE). The article should be revised to use either BE or AE consistently, with an explanation in the introductory paragraph. --80.176.142.11 (talk) 11:08, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Reorg needed
I think that this article needs serious reorganization, something like: But I don't know enough to be sure this makes sense. For example, is the distinction between smooth and skeletal muscle important? Is the fundamental mechanism the same? Lastly, is ibuprofen the only treatment? Why doesn't aspirin, etc. treat it? Joshuardavis 17:36, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
 * intro (definition)
 * fundamental mechanism (deficiency in water, minerals)
 * practical causes (menstruation, overexertion, nocturnal, disease)
 * treatment (massage, ibuprofen, etc.)

Practical causes should include mammalian diving reflex, which isn't mentioned in the article at present. Bards (talk) 10:40, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Cramp not whole muscle
A muscle (or even a few fibers of a muscle) that involuntarily (without consciously willing it) contracts is called a "spasm." If the spasm is forceful and sustained, it becomes a cramp.

Almost every discussion of nocturnal leg cramps, including this article, are wrongly vague. They refer to "muscle", without mentioning that the involuntary contraction is usually NOT the whole muscle, but rather just a little part of it, very abnormal, not a contraction that would ever occur normally. -69.87.200.196 (talk) 12:54, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Interesting information. I only just scanned the source provided, but can you provide a quote that supports the "usually" part of your claim?  All I see is that is can involve only part of the muscle. -Verdatum (talk) 16:57, 1 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Interesting, but does a spasm (or whatever it is called) ever happen to the entire muscle? For me, my whole muscle tightens up, and I cant move it at all.Personplacething (talk) 04:12, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Cures
Regarding nocturnal leg cramps, an instant cure is to reach over and pull back on your toes. I'm not sure why it works (I guess it stretches the muscle and allows it to breathe) but it does and makes the pain go away almost immediately. Good luck trying to remember to do this when you're woken up in the middle of the night from it. Last night I forgot. : (

I was advised to stand on my leg and walk around after I got a cramp while watching David Letterman last night. I tried it, since the friend who recommended it went to a massage college, and it worked great. My advice would be the same, stand up, and walk around. --69.247.169.233 00:26, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Some friends and I were discussing this problem and one said he made a loop in a string above the ankle of the offending leg while another said he simply used a rubber band. Both swore that this simple cure worked and I tried it and it worked. I suggested my wife try it and it also worked. I can't explain why, all I know is that it works. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.60.107.254 (talk) 01:58, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

A doctor said to me that it also works to lie on your back. At least that makes the cramp go faster. Apparently no one knows why this works, but I know it does for me. Eduarodi (talk) 07:04, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

It might work for you guys, but for me, every cramp is the worst pain I have ever felt, and to be honest, the lying on the back thing hasn't worked for me. The toe pulling might work however, I need to try that out. For me, the cramp lasts for at least a few days afterwards, so what I do is just massage it gently everyday until it goes away.Personplacething (talk) 04:11, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

The first sentence of this section states that "Muscle cramps can be treated by applying a soft massage on the cramped muscle"; my first-aid books warn against this. Anyone got any references for the claim in the article? Wocky (talk) 06:55, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Misinformation
Cramping is NOT caused by lactic acid, it's caused by acidosis of the muscle cells because the pH buffers become overloaded from rapid ATP synthesis. See the lactic acid article for more information. Your gym teacher and average uneducated athlete will beg to differ but science doesn't lie. There's no properties of lactic acid that would cause the burning and cramping sensation associated with oxygen shortage. Also reading about the enzyme ATP synthase will also provide more evidence that a low pH condition is the culprit.

I will substitute this information in one week and provide a source. --Novaprospekt 02:21, 27 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I have heard that it is due to lactic acid, which to me didn't seem to contradict the obvious fact that it is to do with Acidosis. That is interesting information, Novaprospekt. 219.89.145.85 (talk) 13:53, 21 September 2008 (UTC)


 * hanlay —Preceding unsigned comment added by Darkspartan4121 (talk • contribs) 00:56, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Lactic acid isn't "an acid" technically inside body cells due to physiologic pH. It is in anionic form lactate which has lost its proton (and therefore, its ability to be an acid -- acids donate protons). Lactate can not contribute to increasing acidity. It can only accept protons at this stage and that would only raise pH. The acidosis is from rapid ATP consumption, as protons are liberated when ATP is broken down. See this source for more details http://ajpregu.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/287/3/R502 -Novaprospekt (talk) 22:35, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Activation?
"Only a few fibers of a muscle may be activated."

This sentence seems to have nothing to do with the sentences around it. Its relevance is unclear: does it mean that only a few fibers can be in cramp, or that using only a few fibers can cause cramp, or what? The reference makes it clear that the intended meaning is that only a few fibers can be in cramp, so I have made a change to the article to clarify that meaning. David Spector (talk) 11:19, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

Pathophysiology
This section is very poorly written. Not all skeletal muscles work in simple antagonistic pairs. Many muscles have actions that occur in several planes. It is not necessary to completely relax one muscle to begin contraction of its "antagonistic partner". Why does the section begin with this sentence? I don't think the fact that muscles often act as antagonists of one another is strictly related to muscle cramping. In addition, muscle cramping can be due to an electrolyte imbalance (not only a lack of magnesium). It would be helpful if the role of ions was explained more clearly as they pertain to muscle cramps.

Wjdittmar (talk) 00:30, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Reader feedback:
186.13.6.158 posted this comment on 26 October 2013 (view all feedback).

"I would put more details on chemical causes."

Any thoughts? Outside my competence, but seems a reasonable request.

&bull; &bull; &bull; Peter (Southwood) (talk): 09:10, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

Age
"These cramps are more common in older people.[5] They happen quite frequently in teenagers and in some people while exercising at night."

This doesn't make much sense. What are older people? People older than teenagers? Octogenarians? What is "quite frequently...in some people"? A little too vague. What is "while exercising at night?". Do these people get leg cramps in bed, at night, after they have exercised, or do their legs really cramp up differently during exercise after the sun has set; differently enough to warrant the adjective nocturnal? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bestefford (talk • contribs) 13:46, 14 January 2013 (UTC) kjlj

I was under the impression that children/teens going through periods of fast growth often had cramps--"growing pains"--due to musculature not keeping up with bone and other growth. Shouldn't this be emphasized a bit more? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.36.196.216 (talk) 00:41, 7 February 2016 (UTC)

Treatment
The coverage of treatment is inadequate, because it says nothing about treatment with supplements. I have found that my cramps have cleared up almost completely with a supplement that includes calcium, magnesium, sodium and a few other nutrients, but the article says nothing about this approach. Sardaka (talk) 10:29, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

References, what on earth is going on!?
Ipoo understand exactly what I'm looking at; nor do I have time to fix it if it's borked (sorry) but what's the deal with the citations? They all say something about Cache-Control, which if I'm not mistaken is today with the HyperText Transfer Protocol, NOT muscle cramps or Journals. Check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cramp#cite_note-4 and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cramp#cite_note-8 .. Seriously, the references are great but there's weird stuff in the actual notes that I just don't understand. Thanks for your attention in this matter, guys, great article :) sorry if I'm simply confused. 219.89.145.85 (talk) 13:51, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

After reading the above, I'm confused too. Sardaka (talk) 11:05, 8 May 2019 (UTC)