Talk:Craps

Dice Control
http://wizardofodds.com/craps/crapsapx3.html The (reputable) webmaster of popular casino-game-information site "wizardofodds" conducted an experiment where they found it was atleast somewhat (scientifically) probable that "dice control" could exist.

Alleged Systems
Any material referring to alleged systems (especially if it contains a link to a website) should be 86ed. There aren't any perpetual motion machines, and there aren't any craps systems that give an advantage to the player.


 * The writeup made it clear the material was a hoax, and I believe the fact that other sources have been repeating the false material makes it worth mention in an encyclopedic work. Shall we also delete hoax, Crop_circle, and Loch_Ness_Monster?  FWIW, I am unaffiliated with the site linked and included it merely because I thought it relevant.  Kat 20:56 17 Jul 2003 (UTC)

There are lots of bogus systems out there, and I could not tell from reading your verbiage whether or not you were trying to advertise the site mentioned. The site had one of these long shaggy dog stories that attempted to explain away why their system hasn't yet bankrupted the casinos, kind of like how fad-diet books have to explain away why you will lose weight while eating all the Haagen Dazs you want. The craps-system site could possibly have been persuasive to some, and I fear for such people if they get steered to a scam site. My feeling is they are better off ignored. But if you feel strongly about your language, please feel free to put it back if you like. Mbstone 04:58 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)


 * I will add it back shortly. Please feel free to edit it if you believe the wording is inappropriate. Kat 19:08 21 Jul 2003 (UTC)~

I have a problem with the text on Quatloos that the system "gives the player an advantage over the house." It doesn't. I don't understand why Quatloos appears to debunk other scams and then claim that there is such a thing as a winnind craps system.

Question about odds during coming out
The page says, "There are a total of 36 possible combinations. So on the come out roll here are 9 ways to win, 4 ways to lose and (36-13=) 23 ways to start a point." If I understand correctly, the player wins on the "come out roll" by rolling 7 or 11. There are 6 ways to get 7 and 2 ways to get 11 which makes 8 ways to win, not 9 as the article claims. There are 24 ways to start a point. Either the odds calculation is a mistake or a subtle aspect of the game still needs to be described. Peter Hendrickson


 * Yes there are 8/36 ways to win on the come-out roll.--155.144.251.120 03:09, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

"Crabs"?
Is there any source for the statement that the game was formerly known as crabs?


 * The American Heritage Dictionary and the Encyclopedia Brittanica both mention that craps is derived from the Louisiana French word "crabs".Rray 03:57, 12 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks, although what the AH (online version) says is: "Louisiana French, game of hazard, from English crabs, lowest throw in hazard, from crab1, or crab2." Which does not say that the game was ever known as "crabs."


 * The rules of Hazard, and description of throwing "crabs," was published in Hoyle's Games Improved, in 1775 :

"The person who takes the Box and Dice throws a Main, that is to say, a Chance for the Company, which must be above four, and not exceed nine, otherwise it is no Main, consequently he must keep throwing till he brings five, six, seven, eight, or nine; this done, he must throw his own Chance, which may be any above three, and not exceeding ten; if he throws two Aces or Trois-ace (commonly called Crabs) he loses his Stakes, let the Company’s Chance, which we call the Main, be what it will. If the Main should be seven, and seven or eleven is thrown immediately after, it is what is called a Nick, and the Caster (the present Player) wins out his Stakes.  If eight be the Main, and eight or twelve is thrown immediately after, it is also called a Nick, and the Caster wins his Stakes.  The Caster throwing any other Number for the Main, such as are admitted, and brings the same Number directly afterwards, it is likewise termed a Nick, and he also wins whatever Stakes he has made. Every three successive Mains the Caster wins, he pays half a Guinea to the Box or Furnisher of the Dice."

If a knowledgeable person can determine whether this reflects an early form of "craps," perhaps the entry can be modified.Svaihingen (talk) 02:03, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

London Epithet?
Is there any source for the statement that crabs was an epithet for two and three? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.29.178.79 (talk) 01:38, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

Crapping out on 3
Traditionally I believe the shooter crapped out by rolling a 2 (snake eyes) or a 12 (box cars) on the first roll. I believe it was the casinos that added 3 as a crap-out, thus doubling the odds of crapping out in their favor. Am I wrong?


 * Most definatly wrong. With only craps on 2 or 12 the bet would have had a player advantage. Its possibly that 3 wasn't a crap-out when 11 wasn't a win on a come-out coll. But I doupt it.

Number of dice???
Hi, I'm working on a translation for the German wiki right now. I noticed, that there is no hint so far, that you need TWO dice to play craps. Some native might add that information soon. Cheers. 80.130.73.175 19:15, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)

You could also mention that in casinos, you need Five (5) dice to play.

Note: Only two dice are used during play of the hand. Five dice are offered to each new shooter to choose only two from, after the previous player sevens-out. From those five dice offered, the new player selects only two to play with (using ONLY one hand to pick the two selected), and the stickman then retrieves the other three dice for non-use during the game. He puts it back into a "dice bowl" and out of play. When the next player sevens-out, he then add the two game dice back to the out of play dice, and presents five dice to the next new player, to again select two from. Dan Lubin.

Misleading / contradictory information
In the first paragraph of 'The basic game', it is stated that: "On the first roll of the two dice... the shooter wins by rolling either a 7 or 11." But then, two sentences later: "To win, the point number must be rolled before a 7... If a 7 is rolled before the point number, the shooter has sevened-out and loses."

It can't be both, so which is it?

Also, I am assuming that the 'shooter' is the person rolling the dice? It isn't explicity stated by the text. TACD 04:39, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Of course it can be both. When the shooter (the player rolling the dice) throws the first roll (and only the first roll), a pass line bet wins on a 7 or 11; looses on a 2, 3, or 12; or sets the point with any other number.  After a point is set, a pass line bet wins if the point is rolled again, or looses if a 7 is rolled; if neither is rolled, the shooter rolls again, until either the point is hit or the shooter sevens out. So, the first quote is correct for the first roll, and the second quote is correct for the second and later rolls.


 * There is no requirement that the shooter make a pass line bet, and when I'm rolling I normally bet on the don't pass line, so saying when the shooter wins or looses isn't as simple as the paragraph states. Gentgeen 06:07, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)

My edits
Were quick and dirty but added some important info and some needed corrections.

Please move them around as you see fit. Foodmarket 03:19, 14 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * speaking of edits, trying to add references to craps etiquette... have started anyway. These are actually pretty easy to confirm. At what point can the banner suggesting improvement be removed?

Carlw4514 (talk) 15:39, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Bias?
This article seems to only deal with craps within the context of a casino. I don't know anything about the game, but I'm pretty sure it's widely played in much more informal settings.

Currently, craps is almost exclusively played in casinos. Up until the 1960's, many "after hour joints" (informal gambling halls) had crap games for wagering, and was very popular in that form until the 1960's. Law enforcement, the increasing popularity of casino play, the difficulty of finding talented dice dealers to run games, and the introduction of legalized casino gambling in New Jersey in the 1970's essentially did away with such "informal" crap games. When craps is played informally (for learning, socializing or dealer practice) the same "layout" or betting cloth is often used, displaying the same bets available in a casino. (Source: John Scarne's "The New Complete Guide") Dan Lubin.

Confusing
I don't know anything about craps and came to this article hoping to find out. However the article is very very confusing and disorganised. It's clearly written from the perspective of someone who knows the game and assumes the people he/she's writing to also knows. This is no use to someone like me. Rather than explaining the game in clear terms, it rambles out about all sorts of terms without really explaining them.

- I'm a casino dealer, and the game was explained very well by the author. We describe it the same way when we teach new players. Now keep in mind, craps is a fairly complex game in comparison to other wagering games such as blackjack, and the author also described the source of the game's odds, dice probability, and "house edge" in order to be very complete. He also described table protocol. As a casino dealer, I feel the author was right on the money in describing the game, though it is complicated. It takes a bit longer to pick it up than most games, especially if a complete description, including dice probability is offered, in order to be complete. Dan Lubin.

-- As someone recently new to Craps I can understand the confusion. Always remember the game is as complex as you want to make it through how many betting choices you want to take advantage of. I recommend to any novice as I was to start with a single bet (i.e. the Pass Line) and then slowly expand to learn new betting techniques as you get comfortable. With that said I think this article is very well written with logical examples. Reading about how to play craps is difficult in itself, when I just decided to go try it and experiement and watch other people I learned much faster. --Clint 6/27/06


 * I will be attempting to re-write this acrticle in my lunch break, because it is shocking. Just get anyone who knows nothing about craps to read it, and they still won't know. You really have to no know anything about craps to understand how badly it is written. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 155.144.251.120 (talk) 03:11, 5 January 2007 (UTC).

Barred Craps
How about an explanation before talking about it... I know what it means (usually a 12, but specifically it's what's printed on the table on the don't come line that pushes a don't pass bet)
 * The don't pass wager should reflect the variations of bar 2 (which is mathematically identical to bar 12) and bar 3 (which is not). I can't think of good text to use in the article, or I'd make the edit myself. 141.199.102.30 (talk) 17:10, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Expected Loss Chart
I think the chart depicting amounts lost per 1000 bets of $10 is misleading. The same loss amounts could be stated for 20 bets of $500 or 1 bet of $10,000.

"Do it the hard way"???
RE: This line: "The terms 'on a roll', 'crapshoot', 'no dice', 'crap out', 'Snake Eyes' and 'do it the hard way' all trace their origins to the game of craps."

The first five I can agree with, but to attribute "do it the hard way" to Craps sounds extremely suspicious to me. The use of the word "hard" to indicate "difficult" surely predates the game of Craps.

Little Joe
The page for the Little Joe rocket says "Since their first cross-section drawings showed four holes up, they called the project "Little Joe," from the crap-game throw of a double deuce on the dice.[1]" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.63.86.153 (talk) 01:44, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Street Craps
I know nothing about craps except that there's a stereotype that it's played on the streets of at least America, by incredibly poor people in inner cities. I see it daily in San Francisco, and was hoping to find out about it. I find it highly annoying, that although many people associate craps with African-Americans and crack, and even though it is a stereotype, the article talks nothing of this piece. this should be in the opening paragraph, even if to refute this. More evidence that Wikipedia has nothing to do with reality. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 149.101.1.131 (talk) 19:58, 19 December 2006 (UTC).


 * Perhaps the mention was avoided in an effort to keep from perpetuating racial stereotypes, eh? Particularly those that aren't very well founded. I'm not sure that many people today associate the game with the stereotypes you mention.Realkyhick 21:49, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

The page notes street craps 'reportedly' popularized by African Americans - the source is from 1938, likely not the most reliable source out there. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Omozungu (talk • contribs) 22:40, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Odds
Can someone please example 'odds' bet. Where exactally do you place chips on the table for an odds bet? I can't find ANYWHERE that actually tells you this. For someone who knows nothing about the game this article is no where near enough to construct and play the game.--Dacium 10:31, 3 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia is not an instruction manual. Your assumption is that this encyclopedia article should be enough to construct and play the game, but that's not necessarily the case. Rray 14:22, 3 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Its not that article specifically should, but it at least should explain bets. For example if someone red this article and went to a casino they would still likly have almost no idea how to get odds. --155.144.251.120 00:08, 4 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Adding this information to the article would be a great way to contribute to the Wikipedia. I'd encourage either of you to research the information and add it to the article along with the appropriate citations. That's what the Wikipedia is all about. (i.e., rather than asking someone else to solve the problem you perceive, be bold and solve it yourself. That's what makes the Wikipedia cool.) Rray 00:28, 4 January 2007 (UTC)


 * What is up with you? First you say its not a manual and shouldn't have the information. Then you say he should add the information. We obviously know what Wikipedia is about so why make all these filler responses? Anyway I am in the process of fixing the article.--Dacium 06:48, 7 January 2007 (UTC)


 * My original point was that the article was fine without that information. (That doesn't imply that it can't be added; sorry if I was unclear.)


 * My second point was that if you or he think that the article would benefit from the additional information, than you or he should add it instead of complaining about it and/or asking someone else to add it on the talk page. Rray 15:33, 7 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Don't you think it would have been added if we knew the information? And the article was not fine without the information. How can an article about a game be fine when it doesn't even show how to play it??--155.144.251.120 05:32, 21 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Not that the article should obfuscate because the casinos do, but it's worth mentioning that one of the few if not only no-house-edge bets in the entire casino has no markings or other indications that would let the player know he could make it. at any rate, to bet free odds on an established point, you had to have made a pass line bet first, and then you place the chips between you and the pass line bet, right behind the pass line.  to bet free odds on an established come number, you toss your chips to the dealer and say "odds on the [number]". 207.29.128.130 15:36, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Image Craps.jpg
The title image has incorrect copyright. Some one correct it, or replace it with a better image. Right now it looks like ripped off some casino webpage.--æn↓þæµß¶-ŧ-¢ 09:53, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Also, its a lousy image, and not at all instructive. 69.116.184.101 (talk) 01:13, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

fire bet clarification
What if the shooter establishes five points, and then sevens out on the next roll?

Does the player who wagered fire bet get to keep his 250:1 winnings?

The reason I'm asking is cause the player cannot take the bet off until he wins or loses. But since he won at the fourth and fifth roll (25:1 and 250:1 payout, but only gets credited the 250:1), does he have to specify whether to collect the winnings (and forfeit chances of winning the next bigger payout), or does he/she have to leave it there (but will collect highest winnings after seven out)?

Thanks, —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Il consiglieri (talk • contribs) 02:22, 17 January 2007 (UTC).


 * It goes on how many different pionts have been established and made before the seven out. No one gets paid until a seven out occurs. So yes he would get 250:1 instead of 25:1. You don't loose the bet going for another roll, you aren't paid until a seven out occurs.--155.144.251.120 03:53, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

If a 7th point is thrown do the players with fire bets only get paid once, or do they get paid twice? Exp. if I had $1 on the fire bet would i get paid $1998 for points 6 and 7 or just $999. Thank you in advance Eyrxx (talk) 18:05, 10 August 2011 (UTC)Eyrxx

There cannot be a seventh point thrown. This is based on unique points made, of which there are only six (4, 5, 6, 8, 9, 10). For example, a shooter who sets and makes a point of 6 five times in a row would still only count as one point for the fire bet. A shooter who sets and makes 4, 6, 6, 8, and 9 has, for the purposes of the fire bet, cleared four points. 161.225.196.111 (talk) 03:48, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Table Layout
Anybody agree that the article would benefit from a table layout. -- ROASTY TOAST  21:51, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Added. Jimpoz (talk) 17:12, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

True odds and payoffs
What does everyone want with regard to the odds table? Should I have different odds for win, loss, push, and all the different payouts on the multiple payoff bets? For instance, on the don't pass, the odds of winning are 1031:949 (which is where the house edge comes in), but the odds of not losing are 244:251 (better than even chance). The odds of rolling the 12 are of course 35:1. CjPuffin 19:50, 29 June 2007 (UTC)


 * They should all be based on return for 1 unit bet. ie. what do you get on average for 1 unit bet, compared to what they should pay you. In other words because tie happens 35:1 the true odds (1:1 given odds) should actually be higher than 1:1--Dacium 00:50, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Advertising/Santa Ana Star Casino
There is reference on the table to the Santa Ana Star Casino's odds. This is inappropriate and transparent advertising and not suitable for inclusion. Unless you're planning on including the special odds offered by every single casino which offers them. Santa Ana Star Casino's page itself is clearly written by someone who works for them and the references are clearly designed to draw trade.

Don’t Play the PASS LINE or COME
I make many trips to Nevada, either Laughlin or Vegas. I really don’t care about house edge or percentages. When I play craps, I don’t play for percentages, I play for MONEY. Money is the only thing that counts and if you take a good look at the percentages, every chart would tell you play the pass line and come. WRONG. What’s important to understand is your initial bet for a point only pays even money. If you take into account the money invested on a point and full odds, you would be surprised of your actual winnings compared to the amount of money you put up. Haven’t most of you noticed that table odds have changed to 3, 4, 5 everywhere? The reason for this is to decrease the money paid out on points and increase the house edge. You would be better off placing the number. You would actually see a higher payout on a place bet than you would on the money you bet on the pass line plus odds.

Let me give you an example and then tell me its better to play the pass line or come. Now, I have to use odd numbers for this example (apples to apples) in order to show you the money. Let’s say your playing at a crap table with 3, 4, 5 odds. You make a $13 pass line bet and the point is 4. Now, you decide to take maximum odds. So, at 3 times the 4 or 10, the most you can put behind your bet is $39 ($13x3). You now have a total investment of $52 on the table hoping for the 4. The guy next to you didn’t make a pass line bet, but decides that the shooter is going to hit the 4. So, he places the point and tells the dealer to buy the 4 for a $50 bet. If a seven is rolled, you lost $52 while the guy next to you lost $50. But what if the 4 hits? Watch this. You win your initial $13, plus $78 for your full odds (2:1) for a total profit of $91. The guy next to you has to pony up $2 for casino commission. (Actually 4% because I have never seen a casino ask anyone for $.50 to reach the 5% commission) He now has invested the same amount of money as you, $52. The dealer hands him $100. That is not the same as yours and both of you have invested the same amount of money for the same number – only to see the other have $9 more than you.

You can take the same principle, with any dollar amount at 3x odds (for place or come on 4) and bet the same amount on the 4 or 10, and even if you DON’T BUY the number, the place bet will always payout more in profits. The same principle still puts a place bet on a 6 or 8 with higher profits than Coming with 5x odds on a 6 or 8. The 4 or 9 is even when it relates to profits on point plus 4x odds. I can talk about many examples or variations about why these charts do not tell the entire truth about total money bet and the actual amount paid out in winnings, but then I’d have to write a book. Sincerely, Frank.


 * WRONG. You are totally ignoring the money won the pass line bet. On the come out roll the pass line bet of $13 is twice as likely to win instantly than it is to loose instantly. The $9 more (actually $7 because you forgot to take the commission) is more than made back by money won on come out rolls.
 * 8/36 come out rolls the line bet wins $13 (8/36 to win $13)
 * 4/36 come out rolls the line bet looses $13 (4/36 to loose $13)
 * 3/36 the point is 4 or 10, and 1/3 of the time win 3x odds (3/36*1/3 win $91)
 * 3/36 the point is 4 or 10, with 2/3 of the time loose 3x odds, (3/36*2/3 loose $52)
 * 4/36 the point is 5 or 9, with 2/5 of the time win 4x odds (win $91)
 * 4/36 the point is 5 or 9, with 3/5 of the time loose 4x odds (loose $65)
 * 5/36 the point is 6 or 8, with 5/11 of the time to win 5x odds (win $91)
 * 5/36 the piont is 6 or 8, with 6/11 of the time to loose 5x odds (loose $78)
 * You can work it out to find that 100% total the result is -0.18 return. Now compare to just taking the point number:
 * 12/36 no point comes. you dont even bet 1/3 of the come out rolls.
 * 3/36 point 4 or 10, 1/3 to win $100 minus say $2 commision (win $98)
 * 3/36 point 4 or 10, 2/3 to loose $50
 * 4/36 point 5 or 9, 2/5 to win $75 minus say $2 commision (win $73)
 * 4/36 point 5 or 9, 3/5 to loose $50
 * 5/36 point 6 or 8, 5/11 to win $60 minus say $2 commsiion (win $58)
 * 5/36 point 6 or 8, 6/11 to loose $50
 * The result is a loss of -0.54 return. Even if you exclude the 1/3 of the time where you don't bet the result is still -0.36. You loose money twice as fast betting that way compared to betting the pass line. Any PC simulator will easily prove this.--Dacium 00:48, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm planning to put up a list of dice calls
Perhaps under "etiquette", or else in its own section along with the simple table that's currently there.

I'm thinking of a list of the various silly phrases that are thrown out by players and dealers in response to the various rolls. e.g.,
 * 2 + 5 is rolled... "cinco dos, adios"
 * 6 + 5... "yo"
 * 3 + 3... "the kitchen roll"
 * off the table... "too tall to call", "too high to qualify"
 * etc

I must admit, I'm a newbie here, this would be my first wikipedia contribution. But I think it's a good one, I have a long list of these fun shout-outs. :-) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Baronworm (talk • contribs) 14:08, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

In Atlantic City I've heard 1 + 2 called "acey deucy." "Yo" isn't really a silly name; it exists to reduce confusion at a noisy table because "eleven" rhymes with "seven." Jimpoz (talk) 06:07, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Too vulgar
Isn't this a vulgar name for a game? Jonghyunchung (talk) 02:38, 22 January 2008 (UTC)


 * You're kidding, right? 204.58.233.6 (talk) 20:44, 6 June 2008 (UTC)


 * No, Even I thought that how come people call this craps as crap means shit. Though, I understand that, as milks doesnt mean lot of milk so, craps also is not the plural of crap, but still, coudn't people have thought of another name for this. Maybe people always ended up losing money to the house (all gambling games are rigged anway; mathematically or otherwise :) so they shouted crap (or shit! or whatever :) 76.112.206.81 (talk) 17:21, 29 September 2008 (UTC)


 * wow —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.72.237.53 (talk) 03:15, 18 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Just like niggardly isn't a racial epithet, craps isn't related to feces. They have different roots and different entomologies.--69.12.151.50 (talk) 07:12, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Don't Pass / Don't Come odds
In the bet Odds section, the actual odds are listed as 244:251... Unless I'm crazy, this cannot be correct as a payoff of 1 to 1 would imply a positive expectation game (which is false). 244:251 ignores that 12 is a draw.

Shouldn't the correct odds be fair odds be P(lose) / P(win) which would be 976/949

background math: or am I missing something? Mgunn (talk) 10:29, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
 * P(win) = 1/36 + 2/36 + P(!MakePoint) = 949 / 1980
 * P(lose) = 6/36 + 2/36 + P(MakePoint) = 976 / 1980
 * P(MakePoint) = 2 * [(3/36) * (1/3) + (4/36) * (2/5) + (5/36) * (5/11)] = 134/495
 * P(!MakePoint) = 2* [(3/36) * (2/3) + (4/36) * (3/5) + (5/36) * (6/11)] = 196/495
 * Note P(draw) = (1980 - 949 -976) / 1980 = 55/1980 = 1/36 Mgunn (talk) 10:38, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm just going to fix it. -- Mgunn (talk) 20:23, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm confused because this paragraph: Don't pass odds: If a player is playing don't pass instead of pass, they may also lay odds by placing chips behind the don't pass line. If a 7 comes instead of the point coming, the odds pay at true odds of 5-to-6 if 4 or 10 is the point, 2-to-3 if 5 or 9 is the point, 1-to-2 if 6 or 8 is the point.

doesn't seem to agree with the chart: Don’t Pass Odds / Don’t Come Odds 	Same as paid 1:2 against 4 or 10 2:3 against 5 or 9 5:6 against 6 or 8 	0%

What's the RIGHT answer? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.83.31.1 (talk) 19:53, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Don't Pass odds and Variance
In the section on Don't Pass odds, it says "putting up the long side reduces variance.". This is simply untrue, or at least untrue on the surface. For example, if the point is 4 or 10, the variance of laying 10 to win 5 is the SAME as taking 5 to win 10. And if you have a don't pass bet, and then lay odds on top of it, you have increased the variance from what it was before. If some other meaning is intended it should be spelled out. I removed the offending sentence Rjljr2 (talk) 17:59, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Free Odds
The article says:


 * However, the "free odds" bet cannot be made independently, so the expected value of the entire bet, including odds, is still negative.

There is one little-known way to place a free odds bet independently, and that is to find yourself at the table standing next to a player who bets the pass line but does not take odds. Then you ask that person, "Do you mind if I play your odds?" If the person, who you can assume does not know what pass line odds are by virtue of their not playing them, says yes, you can play free odds. (When I used to play Caribbean Stud, I never bet the progressive, and I have had instances wherein the player next to me has asked to play my progressive bet which request I always granted.) Jimpoz (talk) 06:16, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Bet Odds on Fire Bet
Does anyone know what the odds and house edge on a fire bet are? Would that information be proper to include in the Bet Odds table? Joylock (talk) 19:31, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Such odds would be dependent on what was rolled as the point and on the odds of hitting each un-hit number while not sevening out and while coming out at least twice (odds against; 1:8 each time). Without doing all the math for a decision tree, I would say the guys who did figured a significant house edge as the payoff is big and it sounds simple to do. Liko81 (talk) 21:46, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Pass the dice on the Come-out roll?
roll big time The article states the following:

"If the shooter's come-out roll is a 2, 3 or 12, it is called "craps"; the round ends with players losing their pass line bets, and the dice pass to the next shooter."

I don't think this is correct, is it? I'm pretty sure the dice only get passed if the shooter rolls a 7 once a point is established. If the shooter rolls a 2, 3, or 12 on the come-out roll, that shooter continues to shoot until a point is established. At least, that's the way it works at all the casinos in which I've played. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Toddhansen (talk • contribs) 06:39, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

You are correct. The dice are only passed if a shooter 'sevens out'. 70.189.174.173 (talk) 02:40, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Fixed in the article Rjljr2 (talk) 02:46, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Loaded Dice
Currently written (7.4 Gambler's Fallacy):


 * In reality, each roll of the dice is an independent event, so the probability of rolling an eleven is exactly 1/18 on every roll, even if eleven has not come up in the last 100 rolls, or if eleven has come up five times in the last five rolls. Even if the dice are actually biased toward particular results ("loaded"), each roll is still independent of all of the previous ones. The common term to describe this is "dice have no memory".

If the dice were loaded (enough), players could gain an advantage by observing rolls and betting accordingly in the future. This would remove the fallacy in "Gambler's Fallacy". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.74.188.24 (talk) 22:29, 14 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Actually, wouldn't someone who fell prey to the gamblers fallacy bet the wrong way if the dice were loaded? The gamblers fallacy is that things tend to "even out" in the long run, so that if there hadn't been a seven in a long time (due to loaded dice, lets say), a gambler subject to the fallacy would bet ON a seven happening, even though (in this case) the dice were loaded to avoid a seven! They would (incorrectly) believe a seven is "due".  Rjljr2 (talk) 00:29, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Place/Bet/Lay on established point?
The article says Players can buy or place any point number (4, 5, 6, 8, 9, 10) except for the current point. However, I have seen some online games that allow you to buy or lay the current point. Is the article correct that you cannot buy or place the established current point number? What about laying the current point? --24.9.149.180 (talk) 21:56, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

You can place or buy (or lay) the current point, it is just not common because the player usually already has a pass (or don't pass) line bet, and if they want more money on the point they can use the free odds bet. However, some players don't play the pass/don't pass, and will commonly bet "32 across" which means 5 5 6 6 5 5 on the point numbers. If a player comes to the table in the middle of the hand, there is also the "Put" bet, which is a place bet that is made on the current point by placing your bet half way off the pass line space. I will delete the offending text from the article. Rjljr2 (talk) 16:38, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Language / Roles
The most compelling thing to me as a Craps lover is that it's a very boisterous game of chance made far more entertaining than other casino games because of the language and phrases used while playing. Many times, a good casino run pit will encourage the Stickmen/Boxman banter to stimulate bets. A list of interesting phrases heard and their meaning would be a great addition. "Coming out the wrong way", "Hard six, bring it out", or "Winner, winner chicken dinner" are a few.

The roles of the Stickman and Boxman should be defined and some may find it interesting how bets are placed. Most casino stickmen/boxmen need photographic memory in case chip tossers, dice, or a stack of dominoes (new money coming in during a shoot) causes bets/chips to be scattered. The Stickmen are usually comedians and the Boxman is the heavy but can add some great jargon as well. There is also no mention of the "on"/"off" markers used by the Stickmen when there are place/buy money after the point is made. Also, Stickmen tend to learn your typical bet(s) and will bet on your behalf asking for money (laying odds, playing hard ways, center bets, how you press, etc).

GreatZar (talk) 06:20, 25 February 2009 (UTC)GreatZar

Perhaps I should clarify part of my last paragraph. If a point is set (say 6), you buy the numbers 4,5,8,9,10, and then the point is made, the stickman will ask if you want your numbers to work on the come-out roll and put a little marker on one of your chip stacks (on/off). If you tell him "no" and the "off" maker is set, a winning seven will preserve your bets. Then, if a point is set, your numbers buy may need to be rearranged to avoid the new point. This is the on/off marker I'm speaking of.

GreatZar (talk) 06:45, 3 March 2009 (UTC)GreatZar

Plagiarized Material
Isn't a lot of this article copy/pasted from http://www.wagerweb.com/casino/craps-rules-game.cfm ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.246.45.52 (talk) 23:26, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Odds for Don't Pass / Don't Come - Revisited
Some older references list the house edge as 1.40%. However, this is the edge per bet resolved, NOT per bet; it ignores ties. See the "Don't Pass / Don't Come odds", above, for a calculation which includes ties. This works out to 1.36% -- which is the value which has been consistently display here. Larry (talk) 21:29, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Also, see http://wizardofodds.com/craps for a somewhat wordier discussion. Larry (talk) 21:34, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Contradiction!

From Dr. I. Needtob Athe - That's true, but the page currently gives the odds as 976:949 and the house edge as 1.36%. This is a contradiction. Odds of 976:949 are equivalent to losing 27 units out of every 1925 bet, or -1.40260%. This is the correct figure if you consider ties as unresolved bets. However, the figure next to it of 1.36% (1.36364%) implies odds of 223:217, which is the correct figure "per bet".

One way or another, the matter should be settled and the contradiction should be corrected. One possibility would be to explain the matter and provide both figures. If one figure is to be favored over the other, I would prefer the "per bet" figure of 223:217 = 1.36% because it's a more fair comparison to the pass line bet. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.11.155.138 (talk) 04:33, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Volatility of Craps and Social Aspects of the Game
A few things I didn't see mentioned are reasons for popularity of the game - it should be mentioned that since a large number of players are betting very similarly (on the point and elsewhere) wins can be celebrated en masse, making it quite a social game with shouts heard across the casino. Also, it is a particularly volitile game (streaky), meaning you can win money fast, and lose money faster than other games, which adds to the excitement factor. 75.101.11.171 (talk) 14:23, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

-- dk -- does anyone have a clue as to where the name "craps" comes from? Inquiring minds. . . (and I'm certain this is not the right place to ask/post this question, but I couldn't find any better place -- email me at deliotk@hotmail.com with better instructions if you will -- thanks : ) -- dk —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.185.182.241 (talk) 00:07, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

Roll nicknames
It looks like the Lou Brown nickname originated on wikipedia -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Lou_Brown They did a Google at that time and couldn't verify it. Now it shows up, but it looks like those sources copied from wikipedia —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.87.113.82 (talk) 03:03, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Mellenberg Rolls
I found this comment when trying to find more information on Mellenberg Rolls: http://www.mentalfloss.com/blogs/archives/64346#comment-399832 168.122.10.233 (talk) 00:59, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Variants of the game
The mentioning of "Bank Craps" also known as "Las Vegas Craps", being a variation of Craps that is popular in Nevada "gambling houses" is confusing to me... The sentence appears to be describing the standard craps game that is played in casinos worldwide, so it seems a little awkward to call it a variation.... and secondly, it mentions that a string is stretched a few inches above the table... I have been to about 10 casinos in the US, Macau, and Australia, but have never seen a string stretched over the table. Is a "gambling house" different from a casino? Either this description is wrong, or else it needs to clarify where this variation is found.

Actually, because of the words "online" appeared in the same paragraph as the words "over a wire" in the original writing of this section (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Craps&oldid=358421813) I suspect that the original writer was paraphrasing from another source, and the phrase "over a wire" originally referred to playing an electronic version of the game over the internet, but this is an unfounded suspicion.

I'd appreciate if someone with a better understanding could clarify this section about "Bank Craps".

70.170.96.173 (talk) 20:02, 1 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Sounds like something I might have read in one of the Hoyle books a couple decades ago. They commonly characterized a set of "current" or "most popular" rules for a game when nobody I knew had ever heard of it being played that way, and described a "variant" being similar (thought still not always accurate) to how the game was actually played in recent times at home and in casinos. — AlanM1 (talk) 10:12, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Geographical Nicknames
Missing from the list of geographical nicknames for points are "Big Dick from Punkin' Crick" and "Big Daddy from Cincinnati", both nicknames for the 10 (5-5).76.199.11.174 (talk) 05:16, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Field bet, erroneous table entry
I removed an entry in the payoff table which was just wrong, here is a spreadsheet of the different types of field bet with a breakdown of probabilities and how the house edge is calculated. CryptographicallyInsecure (talk) 00:14, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

Non-encyclopedic
I'm not familiar with craps and came to this page to get a basic idea. I hope this is constructive criticism. A lot of the article reads like a guide written by a casino employee or a "part-time pro," not an overview of craps for an encyclopedia. The most obvious example of this is all of the advice about what the aspiring gambler "should" do. For example:


 * When joining the game, money (and I.D., if necessary) should be placed on the table rather than passed directly to a dealer. Keep in mind that the dealer's exaggerated movements are required so that any disputes can be later reviewed on security camera footage.


 * If a new player feels that he or she needs assistance in learning the rules of craps, it is recommended to approach an empty craps table at a slow time of day (for example, between 9 a.m. and 11 a.m.). The dealers are likely to be approachable and friendly and will explain the betting process.


 * If, for social or other reasons, play is required, one can reduce (but not eliminate) one's average losses by only placing bets with the smallest house advantage.


 * New players should familiarize themselves with them before approaching a craps table.


 * Food, drinks, cigarettes, and other items should remain off the chip rail and should not be held over the table.

The amount of attention given to the history of craps, it's place in various cultures, and the informal versions of craps that have been played in various milieu over time is minimal, the legal treatment of the game over time. Its like if someone replaced an article on Rock Music that described how it grew out of blues and R&B, its place in popular culture in the 1950s, how it is played in garages versus other venues, how it was transformed over time, the different sub-genres, the types of instruments used, etc. with an article "How to get a recording contract for your band."

There are academic sources on this topic. The first I looked up mentions that the game is thought to be of Arabic origin, which the history section here neglects. There must be a rich history of this game in prisons, among sailors and soldiers, and this article really sells that short. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.163.254.150 (talk) 15:40, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Anon editor 140.163, I agree with you. WP:NOTHOWTO covers this sort of "should" writing and IMO it "should" be deleted. ☆ Bri (talk) 22:07, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

Merger proposal
I propose the merger of Floating craps into Craps. The article on floating craps is a stub and would serve more benefit on the main article here. I don't think the article must be deleted (it is sourced) but it would be more useful here. Branchofpine, Have a chat, My edits 18:23, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Support merge - Makes sense. Actually, the only ref to it I've heard is in Guys and Dolls. O3000 (talk) 18:27, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
 * ✅ Klbrain (talk) 13:17, 8 January 2019 (UTC)

Etiquette
This entire section has problems with sourcing, includes actual rules, not etiquette, and the concept is a bit odd. Hope no one minds, but I’ll take a hatchet to this when I get a chance. Opinions are welcome. O3000 (talk) 01:02, 21 December 2017 (UTC)


 * Took a hack at it. I split it into "table rules" and "etiquette". Rewrote the rules part from sources. Etiquette is more iffy since it could easily be the size of a large article in itself, but I'm not sure how much trouble it's actually worth. I went over tipping and mentioned the "seven" thing, at least. If anyone feels like taking it on, the sources added for that section go through at least a couple dozen more rules. -- bornLoser (talk) 20:53, 19 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks for all the work. I forgot about the article. I'm a bit concerned about some of the sources. But then, good sources are scarce for this stuff, and it's certainly better now. O3000 (talk) 20:59, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

Sucker bets
The section on "fire bets" introduced by Valoem is highly misleading, since it fails to mention a) the "bet" was introduced as a promotion b) the source tells us it's not "worth playing", which is omitted by our text. As a neutral summary of the source it fails dismally. I have explained these (and other) objections to Valoem here and here, but WP:BRD seems to be written in Linear B for all the good it did. Kleuske (talk) 21:23, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
 * You can add the information you stated, but it does not give any reason to its complete removal. Technically all bets against the house may be viewed as sucker bets. If you find a source that says so you can add it, there is nothing against that. Valoem talk contrib 21:28, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
 * I think the bit about these sucker bets is WP:UNDUE (not being a standard part of the game) and promotional (trademarked) and last may Bri seemed to agree. I am eager to hear Bri's opinion here. Kleuske (talk) 21:34, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
 * SHFL and Galaxy Gaming craps table are pretty much in every casino. It's not UNDUE as it is a near universally offered bet at US casinos, if you still don't believe me after the sources I added go to a local casino and see for yourself. Valoem talk contrib 21:43, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
 * And I'm still waiting for a source that confirms that claim. In the mean tiime, I checked this source and found it worthless, I checked this source, which calls it a side bet and as such, not a part of the game of craps any more than bets on socker matches are a part of socker. So still WP:UNDUE, still WP:PROMO, still misrepresenting sources. Kleuske (talk) 21:49, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Those sources show the bet exists and is register with the government as valid and legally offered, hence fortress.wa.gov. Besides that what "claim" are you talking about? Are you still suggesting that I am making this bet up? Or that the bet is non-notable and therefore promotional? Please go to a casino or do some research on the internet, I'd recommend going to a casino and try playing craps for the first time in your life. Valoem talk <b style="color: Green;">contrib</b> 21:55, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
 * The bet is not part of the craps game (it's a side bet) and as such it has no place in this article. Apart from WP:PROMO, WP:UNDUE and the misrepresenting of sources. Kleuske (talk) 22:05, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
 * This is a legally registered side bet, both bets are. They are available at nearly every casino in America so people would be interested in understanding them. Both bets are registered with the gaming commission, if you are suggesting to split the article go ahead, technically this article needs to be split many times. <b style="color: DarkSlateGray;">Valoem</b> <b style="color: blue;">talk</b> <b style="color: Green;">contrib</b> 22:34, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Whether or not it's "legally registered" does not enter into it. It's not part of the craps game, but a side bet. And again, what's your source for claims of ubiquitous availability? Kleuske (talk) 22:53, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

Variants and extensions of a game are certainly relevant to the article on the game. Whether they are "legally registered" or "sucker's bets" or "trademarked" isn't relevant. The question is whether these particular bets are important enough to include; we certainly can't provide an exhaustive list of every variant. Their importance can be determined by looking at how often they are discussed in reliable secondary sources. Toohool (talk) 00:26, 26 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Agree. I’ve documented over 100 variations of blackjack elsewhere and gave up on the effort. Most don’t belong as they are simply not of interest. It’s been quite a while since I’ve seen a new variant of Craps that is notable. On the subject of "sucker bets", I don't think we should get into that classification. I could be convinced otherwise as some clearly are. Just don't think it's our job. We can link to respected sources that say so. O3000 (talk) 01:34, 26 February 2018 (UTC)
 * And answer is of course, minor or local variants are not necessary for inclusion, however, these bets particularly the fire bet, is a notable variant. Mathematical studies regarding it's outcome have been establish here are a few additional sources. Physical Chemistry: Concepts and Theory, Basic Gambling Mathematics: The Numbers Behind The Neon, Casino Craps: Simple Strategies for Playing Smart, Lowering Risk, and ... I can provide additional sources if requested. <b style="color: DarkSlateGray;">Valoem</b> <b style="color: blue;">talk</b> <b style="color: Green;">contrib</b> 04:57, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

The house edge on the hi lo is 13.89 percent.
N — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.10.234.139 (talk) 01:00, 12 June 2019 (UTC)


 * No, the probability of rolling 2 or 12 is the same as the probability of rolling a 3 (or an 11), i.e. 1/18. So assuming the same payout as those, the house edge will be the same as well.  –Deacon Vorbis (carbon &bull; videos) 18:58, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

Major lack of sourcing
This is terrible. The entire article between Craps and Craps is completely unsourced, and has been marked as such for almost six years. This constitutes about 2/3 of this page. Why have these deficiencies not been corrected? Right now, this article is as useless a Wikipedia article as possible, because 2/3 of it is not WP:V. I'm not in the least bit questioning any of the content; it seems like a good and useful reference for the game. There seem to be people here with some expertise. Can this be improved? --jpgordon&#x1d122;&#x1d106;&#x1D110;&#x1d107; 05:16, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

Image vs. Hard 4 / Hard 10 and Hard 6 / Hard 8
Craps

Craps



'''The payout in the table does not match the payout in the image. Which is correct ? '''

'''Thanks ! -''' 71.70.161.220 (talk) 23:03, 19 July 2024 (UTC)