Talk:Crazy Horse Memorial

Clarification
To clarify on the official status of Crazy Horse or as the Sioux people called him, Tashunka Witko; he was actually a great war chief as oppossed to a chief of a tribe, which I'm sure took many years to attain, if you lived that long. Crazy Horse died at age 27, Crazy Horse, war chief. Stabinator 00:09, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Correct, being shirted was his highest honor. Jolomo 00:59, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Expansion
Obsviously this article should be expanded, but the most pressing question I had after reading this article was, "Who's responsible for the memorial now?"

Who owns the land? Is their an official foundation or group heading/funding the project? What group/company is working on the memorial (if anyone is)?

None of that was answered reading the brief article there is now. We should read some of the information on the official site and include it in the article. Cybertooth85 23:23, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Huh?
What does the string of words the fact that the memorial is "unfinished" may also hold true for the belief that the project may never actually be completed at all mean? ➥the Epopt 19:28, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I personally visited this place in 1973, in 1987, and again in 1996. This is a massive undertaking, and frankly the man who originated it impresses me as crazy.  He died in 1982, but his family is continuing this effort.  Meanwhile, the project is still very far from being complete -- it is less than half complete, probably about 20% complete.  This project was mostly the dream of one man, and that man has died.  Will his family actually finish this, even though many people, especially Native Americans, are opposed?  I think the answer is "no."
 * That is the meaning that must have been intended by the rather confused phraseology that you quote. Paul 10:45, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

When I visited the area last year, some of the locals and those that supply the gift shop with products, said the memorial will never be completed because the rock is geologically unstable and any serious blasting will reduce it to rubble. It would be interesting to see any sound geologic data on it. (Kaddiedid 06:08, 9 July 2007 (UTC)) While I agree the sculpture may never be fully completed for the reasons stated, it may at some point be considered "good enough". Mt. Rushmore was never fully completed as envisioned, and is considered a great monument. The school and other parts of the envisioned monument could very likely be completed at some point, if project goals are adjusted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jabs9950 (talk • contribs) 00:51, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Private funding
The last time I saw the Crazy Horse Memorial I took the tour bus that went up to the base of the mountain. The driver had said that the reason Korczak Ziolkowski had never accepted any government money was that he was worried that the money would come with strings attached, and that the monument would not get completed the way he envisioned it. JesseG 06:51, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Native American Perspective
I have attempted to give a fuller picture of what this memorial means to Native Americans by adding some perspective by traditional native elders who strongly oppose this memorial. It seems critical to me to include this perspective, since the memorial claims to be honoring many of the very people who feel insulted by it. They should be heard as well, in their own voices. I also changed the phrase about several Lakota Chiefs requesting the statue to the statement that Zoilkowski claimed to have procured such support. Russell Means, in his interview, stated that "Ziolkowski gathered up all those old chiefs and gave them each $100 and asked them to pose and smoke the pipe with him, so later he could claim that he got their approval." Most accounts of the memorial list only one cheif, who may or may not have been representing the views of his people as a whole. Whatever the truth is, it is more accurate to state that Zoilkowski claimed to have the support of these chiefs (and by implication, the Lakota people) instead of stating his claim as fact. Danrunyan 23:46, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

deleted by myself

"While Ziolkowski's motives may have been sincere" was changed to "While Lakota Chief Henry Standing Bear motives may have been sincere" As a Ute i think very highly of the place. I go there every year. Long after the indien is gone this memorial will show that we where here. And to any NDN who has a problem with the memorial I ask what have you done for your people? Dm2ortiz 21:37, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Hmm...
it says "If finished, it will be the world's largest sculpture." I think it should be "When finished" because they are intending on finishing it right? --68.188.86.144 (talk) 08:23, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
 * It should continue to say "if," because their intentions do not guarantee that it will ever be finished. They've already been at it for almost 60 years, and it's still just a rough form. TJRC (talk) 16:10, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Check out rushmore, though the reasons they won't finish it arn't the same, even now, they decided jsut not to. chances are threy'l go for a bit on this one, then give up.--Cody6 (talk) 16:34, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Opening section
I think the master sculptor Korczak Ziolkowski should be mentioned in the top section Theneogon (talk) 23:59, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Coordinates
The coordinates shown (43°50′12.44″N 103°37′27.79″W) are incorrect. The correct location is 43°50'12"N 103°37'25"W. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bryanfeldman (talk • contribs) 15:27, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Mexico and Native American Indians and Wikipedia Quote-No Indians in Mexico???
I find objection with the way the following statement is used and worded, because it implies that people in Mexico do not have any connection with Native American Indians while in actuality Mexico has a larger population of people belonging to Native American Indian nations (and speaking Native American Indian Languages) than the US does. And the rest of the population in Mexico is at mainly or at least part Native (in ancestry, however). The implications are in the Wikipedia quote are misleading-are there no American Indians in Mexico (or Bolivia, Guatemala, or Peru for that mattter)? I reproduce the misleading quote below: "In Mexico one points with the chin, whereas American Indians and certain other people point with the lips.” (Eisenberg & Smith 1971)."

My objection is that it is not really well said in this context and implies something false. Quite a few Mexicans are very American Indian (according to the terms usually used to define who is an Native American Indian-language, culture, blood quantum etc). Is not a Yaqui, Huichol, Maya, or Zapotec Native American Indian? Some of these groups form a large part of the population in some Mexican states. Sadly the implications of this quote perpertrate a lie (a lie encouraged by the elites in both Mexico as well as the US - that Mexico is not a multiethnic and multilingual state).

Anyone who has been to Mexico, especially the South can see that this is not true. Elsewhere, Wikipedia provides lists of Indigenous Nations of Mexico to prove this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.93.120.234 (talk) 19:41, August 11, 2010


 * Point taken, so I changed the quote to: ""[...]American Indians and certain other people point with the lips." Good simple solution?  on  camera (t)  00:47, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Coordinate error
The following coordinate fixes are need for GeoHack - Crazy Horse Memorial the KML file for google earth takes you to a spot 20 km to the NW —Mark


 * , but you're right: it does. All Google mapping products will sometimes take you to the wrong place when Wikipedia provides correct coordinates, the problem is with Google, not with Wikipedia. If you'll use the "w/ meta data" link for Google Earth in GeoHack, rather than the regular one, it will usually take you to the right place. For static maps, Acme or Wikimapia are best. —  T RANSPORTER M AN  ( TALK ) 20:42, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Nipples?
How big are his nipples? In diameter, measured tangent to his chest? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1000:B01D:B6BB:0:2:29B7:E601 (talk) 01:05, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

"History" section
It seems like the History section is more about the actual person Crazy Horse, and not the statue. There is already a Crazy Horse article with much more complete information. This article should focus on solely the statue. Correct? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.233.113.80 (talk) 14:57, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

Caption of first photo
The caption of the first photo in the history of the monument section has to be incorrect. It does show Ziolkowski and Standing Bear but I really doubt that it is taken at Ziolkowski's home in New Haven Connecticut. The mountain behind them is obviously the one that is to be carved and not in coastal New Haven. Please correct this obvious error. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.45.47.32 (talk) 03:55, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

Aunt who again?
In the Controversies section it says...

Seth Big Crow, whose great-grandmother was an aunt of Crazy Horse (the Lakota are a matrilineal culture), said he wondered about the millions of dollars ...

This made me chuckle, since you don't need a matrilineal kinship system to have a great grandmother who's somebody's aunt. I'm guessing the "matrilineal" comment was to suggest Mr. Big Crow's opinions on the memorial have special weight, since his relationship to Crazy Horse (first cousin twice removed) is solely (presumably) through women. In other words, he wouldn't have a say in the matter if his connection to Crazy Horse included males...but that isn't immediately obvious and ought to be explained, if that's in fact what is meant. 2601:18E:C501:5FE2:7ACA:39FF:FEB2:EFCB (talk) 01:55, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

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Photos selection
I don't understand why there is a military photo of 'Awating Lakotah Helicopter' .... is that an error ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.49.112.74 (talk) 15:12, 10 July 2018 (UTC)


 * Photo removed, along with other unsourced and confusing content. No idea why it was there, either. If anyone feels inclined to explain, please have WP:RS sources before putting it back. - CorbieV  ☊ ☼ 15:48, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Heading text
There is another controversy about pointing with the index finger: https://www.manataka.org/page1425.html --TeakHoken87.155.237.202 (talk) 16:18, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Point, uh, taken. If you want to address that issue with the sculpture, you will have to find a better source than that article and Manataka. There are too many problems with the article, and we can't link to Manataka as it is not WP:RS for Native topics. - CorbieV</b>  ☊ ☼ 19:07, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

I deletet "still showing some outlines of the finished monument, which Korczak painted at the beginning of the work in 1951" from the pictures description. This is not stated in the source given (not on the linked pages and nowhere else), and it just cannot be true as you can clearly see the side of the mountain has been carved away (lighter stone) in several steps, thus it is not longer the original surface. Compare with the other pics on crazyhorsememorial.org/story/pictorial-timeline   47.71.56.170 (talk) 13:49, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

The face has changed over time
Here is the visual evidence.2601:447:4100:C120:64C9:FCA5:6A6E:A292 (talk) 17:30, 21 March 2020 (UTC)
 * WP:Original Research is not permitted on Wikipedia. Locate a WP:Reliable Source that backs up your claim.  on camera  07:14, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

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