Talk:Creatine supplements

Migration
These comments have been migrated from the Creatine talk page as they discuss supplementation. {[subst:unsigned2|19:45, 15 February 2007‎|Qrater }}

Side Effects... For Real
This article needs to list side effects, and sources for the list of side effects. As is, this article would lead individuals to believe there are no side effects. This is not true. This is most likely due to Supplement companies contributing a lot of this article, most likely the ones named in the article. Muscletech is notorious for trolling sites and forums attempting to better themselves and their overpriced products, regardless, within a week or so someone should post the well documented side effects of creatine, or I'll write up a list of the side effects mentioned in documents from the Mayo Clinic.

Chk this:

"Current studies indicate that short-term creatine supplementation in healthy individuals is safe (Robinson et al., 2000). Longer-term studies have occasionally been done, but have been small. One such study that is often cited involved a minimum length of 3 months, but only had 10 creatine subjects (Mayhew et al 2002)."

Robinson et al., 2000/Mayhew et al 2002 is not proper documentation for a wikipedia article.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.255.15.9 (talk) 15:19, 6 January 2007 (UTC).


 * It's been well-documented that the many scientific studies of creatine have found no deleterious effects or medical risk, and in fact the only side effect from creatine supplementation reported in the scientific and medical literature has been weight gain. Negative side effects are generally isolated anecdotal reports. I don't see how the article is misleading or contains trolling. I'll leave you with this PDF to read. Yankees76 22:43, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

--Just because it's safe doesn't mean there aren't side effects. Let's cut the crap and someone post some -reported- side effects. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.216.252.220 (talk) 19:06, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Have removed this rubbish "causes large ejaculation from penis sometimes up to a gallon of fluids". ozboy 5/10/06


 * I don't have any studies handy, but it has been my understanding (and personal experience) that using creatine monohydrate supplements can cause or worsen acne. In a brief glance at various online message boards, this seems to be a fairly common side effect.  Worth mentioning in the article? KyuzoGator 18:03, 28 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Only if it's referenced - try www.pubmed.com for any studies that detail side-effects. Frankg 19:05, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

One well documented side effect is the increased conversion of testosterone to dihydrotestosterone, see this 2006 study:. Increased dihydrotestosertone has several documented side effects like acne, male pattern baldness, increased prostate size (the benign variety) and possibly prostate cancer. For me, the increased dihydrotestosterone is certainly the most serious side effect of creatine supplementation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.83.212.239 (talk) 13:49, 9 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Your link goes nowhere? There is no proof?  Does creatine supplementation have an effect on testosterone?  Qewr4231 (talk) 08:09, 30 April 2018 (UTC)

Someone should add...
Someone should add that Creatine is not an anabolic steroid and has no relation to anabolic steroids. This seems to be one of the most common misconceptions concerning creatine in the public that I know of. As absurd as it is. I think it atleast belongs here somewhere.

I agree with this opinion. I had the above misconception. I found the following article to be an interesting source: http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/DSH/creatine.html.

Someone should add the key creatine arguments of about its use as a dietary supplement for research intrests. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.82.9.81 (talk) 01:21, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Side effects?
How about adding the list of other effects recognized by the FDA (and some indication of how likely they are), and the foul body odor that creatine users are notorious for having?


 * Got a source for that? Yankees76 15:20, 16 October 2006 (UTC)


 * For the body odor thing? Not a rigorous study.  But the lead author of an article about creatine effects on brain function (C Rae, AL Digney, SR McEwan, TC Bates.  Oral creatine monohydrate supplementation improves brain performance: a double-blind, placebo-controlled, cross-over trial.  Proc. Royal Soc. B. 270/1529 (October 22, 2003), 2147-2150) has said in interviews that it makes its users smell worse.  She'd be about as authoritative as it gets until there's a specific study on whether creatine makes body odor stronger, and who would fund that?  Anecdotal sources and assertions spring up on a google search for .  The BBC published the statement too when reporting about the aforementioned article.


 * For other effects: FDA Special Nutritionals Adverse Event Monitoring System.


 * and MS Juhn et al. Oral creatine supplementation in male collegiate athletes: A survey of dosing habits and side effects. J. Am. Dietetic Assoc. 99:593-594, 1999.

Clearance of Creatine and NCAA rules?
Can anyone tell me, how long does it take to clear creatine from your system....i.e. can you take it for a brief period and get benefits but not have it show up on drug test for a college athlete. Does anyone know if it is forbidden by the NCAA rules?
 * 4-6 weeks, but it's not banned by the NCAA, so they're not testing for it. Yankees76 04:22, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Thats not 100% true. Since Creatine is made naturely in you body, it is not ever out of your system. A urine test can show higher than the norm levels of Creatine this in and of its self does not prove someone is taking a supplement as any number of medical conditions and diets can cause this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nukeguy04 (talk • contribs) 23:56, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm pretty sure the question was referring to higher than natural levels acheived from supplementation. After stopping creatine supplementation, muscular creatine phosphate levels return to baseline in about 4 weeks, depending on the users diet and how much they are ingesting through natural sources. And a urine test will not show higher levels of creatine, it will show increased levels of creatinine. A blood test would be used to measure serum creatine. But thanks for your input, even if a bit misinformed. --Yankees76 (talk) 13:01, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

information request on creatine blockers
bill  are there creatine blockers or inhibitors? itd be interesting to know if there are, i had a conversation with a guy last week who claimed that coffee is a creatine inhibitor. is there documented evidence of this? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Billleo74 (talk • contribs) 16:51, 28 January 2007 (UTC).
 * Not true. One study Vandenberghe in 1996 "showed" that creatine and creatine/caffeine supplementation completely negated the performance benefits of creatine in this study. However the study is commonly dismissed and is better known in the supplment industry for it's flawed design.


 * First it incorporated what is called a "crossover design". In this type of study, one group takes creatine and then switches to a placebo a few weeks later while other group does the opposite. During each treatment performance tests are done. This allows for researchers to compare the same athletes (on creatine) to themselves (on placebo) a few weeks later.
 * The clowns who did this study only allowed three weeks between creatine / caffeine and placebo. The problem is that creatine, once loaded into the muscle, takes about four to six weeks – or more – to be eliminated.
 * What is also interesting about the study is that is showed that caffeine didn't affect muscle creatine levels. So if muscle creatine levels remain unhindered by the caffeine, why didn't the athletes improve their performance? Proably flawed design at work again. Since performance tests were conducted, the treatments could have affected both testing periods - making the data from the study almost meaningless. The short "washout" period in this study probably flawed the results allowing the subjects to have been benefitting from creatine supplementation throughout the testing even when they were performing as the placebo group. Yankees76 04:21, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Caffeine is known to cause dehydration through diuresis, although during athletic performance and with increased tolerance this effect may be reduced. I think the possible effect of caffeine induced dehydration, coupled with the increased hydration needs placed on the body during creatine supplementation, provides an explanation for any myths/rumors/chinese whispers that creatine and caffeine can "cancel each other out". -Anonymous Coward —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.8.79.21 (talk) 20:12, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
 * If that's the case, we would see a reduced level of creatine in the muscles, which did not happen. My own theory is that oral creatine supplementation shortens muscle relaxation time (facilitation of muscle relaxation is important to the ergogenic action of creatine supplementation - and when phosphocreatine stores are low muscle relaxation slows and exercise performance drops), however caffeine alters muscle calcium levels which slow muscle relaxation (caffeine reduces the functional capacity of sacroplasmic reticulum), cancelling the benefits of creatine. --Yankees76 22:53, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

History of Creatine Supplements
The following sentence is unclear: At the time, low-potency creatine supplements were available in Britain, but creatine supplements designed for strength enhancement were not commercially available until 1993 when a company called Experimental and Applied Sciences (EAS) introduced the compound to the sports nutrition market under the name Phosphagen.

The "compound" was not creatine but creatine monohydrate. If no objection, I would like to change the word "compound" to "creatine monohydrate".GetAnabolics 20:02, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Creatine monohydrate is the same thing as creatine. It simply means that there is a water molecule "dissolved' in the creatine. That is, creatine and water in a 1:1 ratio, but in a solid solution, rather than a liquid one. There is no difference between the two. Even if you had "pure" creatine, the second you ingest it, it would dissolve in the water in your body. Likewise, the creatine monohydrate, once it dissolves in your body, the water molecule just joins the water solution as well.

re-work
I did a moderate re-work of the article, took out some POV stuff, unneeded details, product placement stuff, lots of citation templates. Lemme know if people have any problems. I also added a lead sentence, I can't think of what else to put in it. WLU 14:59, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Phosphagen.jpg
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Side Effects and Long Term
From what people have said when they've been on this supplement, some of the side effects are diarrhea, head aches, cramping and aggression. Not too sure how I can list the reference, cause I read it in a magazine a while ago and don't know where it is nor the name of it, something 'health', 'Men's health'?! There is also the lack of study into the long term effects, mainly in the region of the kidneys. Well, thanks for the support Daily Rubbings 16:45, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

POV of this article
Whilst reading this article, I got the impression that this supplement is safe and there is no harm in taking this. Hopefully this can be balanced, I am unsure whether a banner should be stuck up for neutrality. It should be changed, in google, one of the most popular hits leads to here, and can be misleading for those doing heavy "research" into the matter. Oh please, why won't anyone think of the children? Try the fish, yum mercury, Daily Rubbings 16:45, 12 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Agreed. There seems to be no true long-term (decades-long) safety studies. For example, its now known that coffee consumption over decades leads to dramatically reduced liver disease. For all we know, this is because the coffee is blocking naturally-occuring creatine damage to the liver. That creatine has undetectable adverse effects after a year or two is promising, but meaningless for those of us who plan to live more than a few years. linas 17:09, 1 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Nothing is completely safe, but I'd bet more people die each year from choking on spinach than taking creatine. There is only so much controversy worth spending the time to talk about. Frankg 03:54, 2 July 2007 (UTC)


 * There aren't many long term studies used in the article that apply to the general population. I agree to that.  I also agree with Frankg that maybe we are creating controversy where no controversy exists.  Creatine is designed for athletes to increase performance.  It's not really designed for other things.  Qewr4231 (talk) 22:08, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

Ban In US Military
This should Be included in a criticism section where US Troops died with creatine intake during excersice —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Special:Contributions/ (talk)


 * Need a source. WLU 00:26, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Comment: Although it has been banned I still feel that the military environment does not allow for creatine users to take it properly. A bodybuilder non military has the freedom of taking extra water if need be cutting back on protien etc... point being is that a bodybuilder non military can tailor his creatine intake or well maintain his diet AROUND creatine. Military personnel have orders, last minute TDY's, statistical alcohol drinking habits, 24hr shifts, shift changes such as one week grave yards next days. Given this its not a conducive environment for creatine and I can see how this would start to effect in a major way the military creatine user. Source: first hand experience....Ex military —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.180.140.105 (talk) 15:29, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Ban in France and elsewhere
The article states that "In some countries, such as France, creatine is banned". I have not been able to find a reference to any country other than France which has ever banned creatine. And apparently consuming creatine has always been legal in France, you just had to get it from some other country. I have also seen recent references to people who now say creatine is readily available in France. Does anyone have the facts on this? Mmm (talk) 07:49, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Some research is needed on this. France banned sales of creatine in the early 2000's (2002 I think) This 2006 article says it's "outlawed" in France and Ireland . Germany prohibits the sale of Creatine-Ethyl-Ester-HCl, Creatine-Alpha-Ketoglutarate Di/Tri-Creatine-Malate, Di/Tri-Creatine-Orotate, Tri-Creatine-HM-ß, Creatine-Pyruvate, Creatine-Ethyl-Ester(-Malate) to be sold, yet allows Creatine Monohydrate. -- Quar te t  14:29, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

One might also want to know ( at least i do) WHY these bans are in effect (if they are) is it because it is considered doping, or because they (these creatinederivatives) have not gone through enough trials to yet be proven safe? 217.13.226.39 (talk) 13:58, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Hello, I live in France and you can buy Creatine in the pharmacy or even shops.

for example this site has creatin and you can clearly see 3 shops with addresses in Paris : http://www.toutelanutrition.com/front_navigation/boutique_nutrition — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.22.91.249 (talk) 12:48, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

I can confirm it's readily available in France and therefore is probably legal nowadays. However I found this Pubmed article from 2001, which says why it's not legal in France: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11317142. The short of it is that it is produced from sarcosine which might originate from cow, and the fear of the so called mad-cow disease which was then very much of a concern, together with that some "contaminants", namely dicyandiamide, dihydrotriazines, creatinine, ions, are or might be formed during the production process. I haven't yet made further investigations, I put that here for what it is worth.90.3.41.89 (talk) 22:38, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

After a wee bit of investigation work, I found this: http://www.fitnesspont.hu/mass-shop/etkezes/FactSheetNo2_BSE.pdf, where one manufacturer claims there are several different processes through which one can obtain creatine, and that the one that manufacturer uses is safe in regard of Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy. This manufacturer makes same sort of claim elsewhere about the presence or not of contaminants in it's product.90.3.41.89 (talk) 23:02, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

PKD and Creatine use
I'm a little disappointed that this article fails to discuss the well recognized research on the effects of Creatine use for people with Poly-Cystic Kidney Disease (PKD). I recall researching Creatine a number of years ago and this was a common thread. I tried Creatine for a while knowing this risk but then found out my father has PKD which gives my a 50% chance of having PKD... Would hate to have not known of this risk. Please see http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11136170 Jponline77 (talk) 19:29, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Synthesis in "Chronic Compartment Syndrome"
The para that describes this looks like the author took a study that found one patient with increased compartmental pressure after supplementing AND working out, and extended this finding with an entire paragraph talking of the dire consequences of Chronic Compartment Syndrome and postulating that a number of creatine users may suffer lower leg pain.

This is clearly synthesis, and would welcome suggestions on how to make this more scientific and accurate. HelpnWP (talk) 02:19, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Dubious Reference
Hi i added some stuff, citing the following site as a reference. the site seems reliable to me. does anyone have an idea on how to check its reliability? or how to underline the fact that i'm not 100% sure about it being reliable? http://www.exrx.net/Nutrition/Supplements/Creatine.html Gregie156 (talk) 10:24, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

That site actually looks pretty reputable, judging from the NCSA textbook on the main page, and it's gear toward collegiate coaches. However, I don't know if that site's references could be trusted any more than those already used in the article. I'm sure coaches are very performance-driven...Steinwnj (talk) 8:59, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

What is creatine made from?
I have been looking througth the articles and can not find anything about what is usually made from: f. ex. slaugtherhouse waste, fish or such. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.220.102.171 (talk) 13:04, 26 February 2010 (UTC)
 * None of the above. Creatine is synthetically produced by the manufacturing of 2 chemicals – sarcosine, which is a sodium salt and derivative of acetic acid, and cyanamide. Reacting the chemicals sarcosine with cyanamide in a specific amount of water, inside a glass-lined filled vessel is how it's made. --Yankees76 (talk) 21:41, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Side Effects -- Consistency among Articles
These two articles contradict each other as to whether supplementation has diarrhea and muscle cramps as side effects:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creatine#Supplements:

Side effects

 * Potential muscle cramps / strains / pulls
 * Diarrhea
 * Diarrhea
 * Diarrhea

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creatine#Supplements (emphasis mine):

A 2009 systematic review discredited concerns that creatine supplementation could affect hydration status and heat tolerance and lead to muscle cramping and diarrhea.

I don't know which is "true," but obviously, the disagreement is confusing.

Jamiejackson (talk) 18:18, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Regarding creatine side effects. It's important to know what the true side effects are. People who use creatine may be taking other drugs or supplements that might be causing some of the side effects that are purported to be from creatine. For example, a high number of creatine users are bodybuilders who also take steroids. If a bodybuilder that takes anabolic steroids and creatine suffers kidney or liver damage how does one know that the organ damage came from creatine and not the anabolic steroids the bodybuilder was using? It's very confusing. Qewr4231 (talk) 07:53, 30 April 2018 (UTC)

I have noticed what you are talking about. The creatine page does not mention much about muscle cramps, diarrhea, and upset stomach while the creatine supplements page mentions muscle cramps, diarrhea, and upset stomach. The creatine page seems to focus more on organ (liver, kidneys) health. Qewr4231 (talk) 08:04, 30 April 2018 (UTC)

ethyl ester
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4469200/

A study on ethyl ester claiming the opposite of what the article says Meel11223 (talk) 13:33, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

New content
Hello everyone, I added content to "Uses," added citations and content to "Side Effects," and added a "Supplementation Protocol" section. Please review my edits for errors and content! Thanks!!! Uses:

A survey of 21,000 college athletes showed that 14% of athletes take creatine supplements to improve performance. Non-athletes report taking creatine supplements to improve appearance. There is little data to show that taking creatine supplements without exercise improves performance. One study observed that increases in maximum leg press strength were comparable between groups with creatine supplementation without resistant training and the resistance training with a placebo; however, the increase in strength was over five times greater for the combined creatine supplementation and resistant training group. Therefore, it is unclear whether creatine supplementation without exercise can considerably change performance or appearance. However, studies have shown that creatine supplementation can preserve lean tissue mass, strength, and endurance, minimizing muscle atrophy in patients with immobilized upper limbs.

Side-effects:

Weight gain due to extra water retention to the muscle

The International Society of Sports Nutrition recommends that high school athletes take creatine only if they are past puberty, eating a well-balanced, performance-enhancing diet, and is involved in serious competitive training.

Researchers have proposed that higher serum levels of creatine may be associated with stress on the kidneys, but it has been shown that athletes, regardless of whether they were CM users have higher serum levels of creatine. This suggests, that having higher creatine serum levels does not imply stress on the kidneys.

-- — Preceding unsigned comment added by 13:16, 8 May 2018 (talk • contribs) BetaEdits (UTC)
 * You have a mix of unsourced and sourced content. Some of the sources are not OK per MEDRS. Please don't use primary sources. (See WP:MEDDEF for definitions of "primary" and "secondary" sources) Jytdog (talk) 14:24, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

Supplementation Protocol
Various supplementation protocols have been studied and proven effective at increasing intramuscular concentrations of creatine. The most common protocol called the "loading" protocol involves consuming 0.3 grams/kg/day of creatine monophosphate (CM) for 5 – 7 days and then a maintenance dose of 3–5 grams/day as long as desired. For example, a 100 kg weightlifter may consume 30 grams of CM per day (say, 7.5 g taken four times per day) for 7 days and then 3-5 grams/day thereafter. This "loading" protocol is reported in the literature to increase muscle creatine concentrations by 10-40%. Other loading protocol studies observed that taking CM supplements with protein or carbohydrates or both can not only reduce the duration of the loading stage but also increase muscle creatine concentrations. One study reported a 60% increase in muscle creatine concentrations when 5 g creatine supplements were combined with a 93 g of carbohydrates. Another effective supplementation protocol called "cycling" involves re-loading every 3 to 4 weeks with the traditional loading dosage for 3-5 days. Without this re-loading, creatine levels can drop to basal levels after a period of 4-6 weeks. Other studies observed that ergogenic effects can be achieved without the loading phase. However, the concentration of muscle creatine may increase more slowly as compared with the loading protocol.

Uses:

A survey of 21,000 college athletes showed that 14% of athletes take creatine supplements to improve performance. Non-athletes report taking creatine supplements to improve appearance. There is little data to show that taking creatine supplements without exercise improves performance. One study observed that increases in maximum leg press strength were comparable between groups with creatine supplementation without resistant training and the resistance training with a placebo; however, the increase in strength was over five times greater for the combined creatine supplementation and resistant training group. Therefore, it is unclear whether creatine supplementation without exercise can considerably change performance or appearance. However, studies have shown that creatine supplementation can preserve lean tissue mass, strength, and endurance, minimizing muscle atrophy in patients with immobilized upper limbs.

Side-effects:

Weight gain due to extra water retention to the muscle

The International Society of Sports Nutrition recommends that high school athletes take creatine only if they are past puberty, eating a well-balanced, performance-enhancing diet, and is involved in serious competitive training.

Researchers have proposed that higher serum levels of creatine may be associated with stress on the kidneys, but it has been shown that athletes, regardless of whether they were CM users have higher serum levels of creatine. This suggests, that having higher creatine serum levels does not imply stress on the kidneys.

--BetaEdits (talk) 12:51, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
 * The only source that you cited there was a primary source, which is not OK per WP:MEDRS. We also don't discuss dosing per WP:MEDMOS per WP:NOTHOWTO and this comes pretty close to giving advice.  Jytdog (talk) 14:22, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

Note - merging back
I merged this page back to Creatine. This had been split out from that page, away back in 2007. In the ensuing 11 years the creatine article blew up to recreate the supplement content there, and the articles developed independently, saying different, partial, and inconsistent things. They also each became shot through with bad content including blatant spam.

I left a similar message on the supplement talk page.

If folks want to discuss a resplit that is fine, but we would have to be careful not to let that happen again. Please discuss there, if you want to discuss a new WP:SPLIT. Jytdog (talk) 14:16, 8 May 2018 (UTC)