Talk:Creswellian culture

c. 38-35,000 years old???
Hello, 38-35,000 years is told to be the age of the "leaf-point" (first image). If so, it is not a Creswellian item (not before 12,500)! Could somebody check the museum exhibit label? Fanfwah (talk) 00:01, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

A single group?
Found this in The British Palaeolithic: Hominin Societies at the Edge of the Pleistocene World By Paul Pettitt & Mark White Routledge 978-0-415-67454-6 January 16th 2012 p;. 373 "Holocene and Mesolithic communities to come. As will be seen below, the British Upper Palaeolithic record is remarkably sparse and even the Late Magdalenian/Creswellian record of the first half of the Late Glacial Interstadial need represent, in our opinion, no more than the activities of one group resident for a handful of years."http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=U7VYXridvUgC&pg=PA560&dq=Paul+Pettitt+creswellian&hl=en&sa=X&ei=PkZWVPvKFoexaaKPgfgL&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=creswellian%20group&f=false] I'm not sure about including it without other comments - I know that Pettitt still rejects the term "Creswellian" and I'm not sure how much this one group idea is accepted by others. Dougweller (talk) 14:28, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

continental Creswellian sites
These seem to exist at least in the Netherlands, there are various sources mentioning them., a scathing review of Matthew Beresford's ''Beyond The Ice. Creswell Crags And Its Place In A Wider European Context'' written by Paul Bahn and Paul Pettit, and. Dougweller (talk) 14:37, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

More sources and comments
Bahn, P. G.,       and Pettitt, P. B., 2009, Britain’s oldest art: the Ice Age          cave art of          Creswell Crags, English Heritage, Swindon.

Barton, R. N.         E., Roberts, A. J., and Roe, D. A., 1991, The Late Glacial            in North-west            Europe: Human Adaptation and Environmental change at the End            of the Pleistocene,          Vol. 77, Council for British Archaeology, London.

Barton, R. N.         E., and Roberts, A. J., 1996, Reviewing the British Late Upper          Palaeolithic:          New Evidence for Chronological Patterning in the Late-Glacial          Record, Oxford            Journal of Archaeology, 15(3), 245–65.

Barton, R. N.         E., 1997, English Heritage Book of Stone Age Britain,          B.T.          Batsford/English Heritage, London.

Barton, R. N.         E., 1999a, Colonisation and Re-settlement of Europe in the          Late Glacial: a view          from the Periphery, In Post Pleniglacial re-colonisation            of the Great            European Plain., 71–86, Folia Quaternaria, Krakow          University Press, Krakow.

Barton, R. N.         E., 1999b, The Late Glacial Colonisation of Britain, In The            Archaeology of            Britain: an Introduction from the Upper Palaeolithic to the            Industrial            Revolution (eds. J. Hunter, and I. Ralston), 13–34,          Routledge, London.

Barton, R. N.         E., 2003, The British Upper Palaeolithic (1996-2001): an          Annotated Bibliography          and Some Comments, In Recherches sur le Palâeolithique            supâerieur, 441,          BAR international series, Archaeopress, Oxford.

Barton, R. N.. E., Jacobi, R.           M., Stapert, D.,            and Street, M. . J., 2003, The Late-Glacial reoccupation of            the British Isles            and the Creswellian, Journal of Quaternary Science,            18(7),            631

Barton, R. N.         E., 2005, Ice Age Britain, B.T. Batsford, London.

Barton, R. N.         E., 2010, Regional and Chronological Patterns in Lithic Raw          Material Behaviour          During the Late Glacial and Some Implications for the British          Later Upper          Palaeolithic, Lithics, 31, 33–43.

Campbell, J.         B., 1972, The Upper Palaeolithic of Britain : a study of          British Upper          Palaeolithic cultural material and its relation to          environmental and          chronological evidence,, University of Oxford. Faculty of         Anthropology and          Geography., Oxford.

Campbell, J.         B., 1977, The Upper Palaeolithic of Britain : a study of            man and nature in            the late Ice Age, Clarendon Press, Oxford.

Charles, R.,         1997, Does the Belgian Creswellian exist?, Lithics, 17/18,          22–45.

Jacobi, R.         M., 1991, The Creswellian, Creswell and Cheddar, In The            Late Glacial in            North-West Europe: Human Adaptation and Environmental Change            at the end of the            Pleistocene (eds. R. N. E. Barton, A. J. Roberts, and D.          A. Roe), Vol. 77,          CBA Research Report, Council for British Archaeology, London.

Jacobi, R.         M., and Roberts, A., 1992, A New Variant on the Creswellian          Angle-backed Blade,          Lithics, 13, 33–9.

Pettitt, P., and White, M., 2012, The British Palaeolithic: Human Societies at the Edge of the Pleistocene World, Routeledge, Abingdon.

Pettitt, P.         B., Rockman, M., and Chenery, S., 2012, The British Final Magdalenian: Society, settlement and raw material movements revealed through          LA-ICP-MS trace element          analysis of diagnostic artefacts, Quaternary International,          272–273(0),          275–87.

Stapert, D.,         1985, A small Creswellian site at Emmerhout (Province of Drenthe, The          Netherlands), Palaeohistoria, 27, 1–65.

Presence or absence of Bi-truncated abruptly retouched points is not enough to determine if a site is Creswellian. The 5 or six sites mentioned by Nick Barton are the best ones. The rest are questionable...

The chronology of the YD is not exact- our articles sometimes get out of date and we need to use the most recent ones, but they will still be is imprecise o plus the time lag of pollen response etc....  There was however a discussion between Blockley etal and petit etal a fw years back in jas which is useful on that. However the assumption that there was no occupation occured during the yd is tenuous- abscence of evidence is no evidence...  We need more sites!!! (quoting from someone here). Dougweller (talk) 13:58, 4 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Absence of evidence is not evidence. It sounds good but is not true. Many generally accepted theses, such as that the dinosaurs did not survive K/T, are based on absence of evidence. In the case of the YD there is a difference of opinion how strong the evidence is. Stringer says at that human absence during parts of the YD appears to be a real phenomenon. Other experts disagree, as you say. The dates for the YD I have seen are c. 12,800 to 11,500 BP and I would be interested to see discussion on this. Dudley Miles (talk) 17:13, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
 * That wasn't actually my comment - I think that absence of evidence can be evidence of absence. Do you want a copy of "The Late-glacial reoccupation of the British Isles and the Creswellian" by R. N. E. BARTON,1* R. M. JACOBI,2 D. STAPERT3 and M. J. STREET4 ? And you can search some of Human Societies at the Edge of the Pleistocene World, Dougweller (talk) 17:35, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks I would like a copy of the Barton article and have ordered Pettitt's book. Dudley Miles (talk) 10:29, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks very much for the paper, which taught me something about a subject which I knew nothing about. However, I am not clear that it throws any light on the dating. So far as I could see their dates for the Creswellian were all C14 uncalibrated, and they did not discuss the adjustment required for true calibrated dates. Or did I miss something? I will read Pettitt's book with great interest. Dudley Miles (talk)

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Dating of Creswellian
The dates given for the Creswellian in this article of between 13,000 and 11,800 BP are wrong as there is no evidence of human occupation during the Younger Dryas glaciation c. 12,900 to 11,700 BP but I have been unable to find a source which spells out dates for the Creswellian clearly. The nearest is The British Palaeolithic by Pettit and White, pp. 434-89. They date the late Magdalenian in Britain to 14,670-14,090 BP. They discuss whether this is identical to the Creswellian and describe Creswell Crags as a late Magdalenian site. They follow this with the Older Dryas glaciation 14,090-14,010 BP - but say below that it lasted 200 years. This is followed by the warmer Allerød oscillation 14,010-12,890 BP and the Younger Dryas 12,890 11,560 BP, when Britain was probably unoccupied. This seems to be the best fairly recent chronology, dating to 2012, but it would be helpful if anyone has a source which is more specific about the Creswellian dating. Dudley Miles (talk) 11:03, 31 March 2022 (UTC)