Talk:Cretan Muslims/Archive 2

Merged
Article merged: See old talk-page here —Preceding unsigned comment added by VirtualSteve (talk • contribs) 11:34, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Disputed tag?
Any objections to the removal of the "disputed" tag? I intend to put in perpective certain parts of the "History" section, such as the part stating that "no large influx of Muslims had taken place towards the island", not even in the course of the 24 year Cretan War (1645-1669)" and also extend slightly into the Cretan Republic on the basis of "The Muslim Millet of Autonomous Crete: An exploration into its origins and implication" (Elektra Kostopoulou - Boğaziçi University, 2009), with interesting insights on such points as "continually evolving profiles of Muslim and Christian Cretans in Ottoman and Autonomous Crete" and "Despite the popular lore on the subject suggesting that most Cretan Muslims were native speakers of Greek, the issue deserves more attention." To pursue, I will remove the tag and the discussion here will may return anytime from Syria, Lebanon and Libya to Crete. Cretanforever (talk) 17:09, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

What about sluthered Turks and immigrates to USA?
Why is no information in the first paragraph about murdered turks? And Why is there no information about arm transfers from mother greece, arming greek population of the island and removal of the personal arms of the turks after British-Ottoman conflict in the island. And many of them immigrated to USA which is also in the documents. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.227.5.231 (talk) 20:54, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

Obscure wording
Article currently says:
 * Some sources prefer to use the term Cretan Muslims to also account for a median population that converted to Islam in the course of the 19th century.

What does this mean? What is a "median population"? Also, almost all conversions came before the 19th century. --Macrakis (talk) 16:31, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Why worry about wording in an article that is disputed and has multiple issues anyway Macrakis? Long time no see, by the way :) Cretanforever (talk) 22:37, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Descent
I oppose to add People of X descent to X people's infobox. If we allow it, we will see İsmet İnönü's photograph in the infobox of the article Kurdish people, Recep Tayyip Erdoğan's photograph in the infobox of the article Georgian people. Takabeg (talk) 05:02, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

Cretans in Syria
Cretans of Syria (Robredo) Ali Bekraki who is a cretan from Lebanon describes himself as Turk. You can read his interview in newspaper AKSIYON or write his name on the net he is a well educated men and what i mean you write that Cretans of Syria feel Greek but you asked only to one person and we can find another who say the opposite.

Did you speak with 10.000 persons? :) i think there is only 2000-3000 persons there and they are very conservatif muslim i think they feel more muslim-turk than greek.You forget something that religion is an important fact of the identity and if an ethnic or non ethnic minority don't have the conscience of minority they cannot be a minority. For this reason they are turk and muslim not orthodox and greek. If you know a little the balkan's history you can understand the situtation.

All of the groups have their own identity and if you want you can call for Hamidiya people Greek but it will change nothing becouse more than 400.000 people in turkey describe themself turk and muslim. Finaly i want to add something that if you can say that there were no turk who come to Crete in the history, it's not true, but in all cases this discussion have no meaning the religion was their first identity and they returned to turkey , maybe the population exchange was an obligation but we don't have to forget that, most of the cretan turks returned before 1924 and only %15 of them came with this exchange. If they feel really Greek, why they did not return to greece but to turkey? You have to think about it, a people who want to escape from Greeks can feel themself Greek?

There is 100 years nearly after the exchange what you want to research? it is only a self satisfaction. You did not live the balkan wars not live their history and you want to create your own history and impose to them.

The history is making peoples and identitys not the ethnic researches.Cretan turks have their own history and identity, and nobody can ignore it , they have their own historical realitys and this made them turk and its in insulte to ignore it. How can you say that cretan peoples feel Greek. Did you asked me ? And also you are ignoring their history that some of them escaped to turkey with little boats ( after balkan wars ) and some of them died on the way. at this time also they was feeling greek? The identity is not only a simple problem of ethnicity, İran wanted to impose the persian identity to Azerbaidjani turks with genetical researches they show that the genetic is close to persion people, not to central asians, and also they show the persian influence in azerbaidjani language , but nothing changed becouse they feel turk not persian and they have their own identity peoples are not made in laboratorys they are the consequences of historical realitys. For that, we will be allways cretan turks not cretan muslims.(ROBREDO) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.185.250.183 (talk) 01:22, 10 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Here`s a famous Libyan....with a very Cretan name (and face). He is also British. So much for Ataturk`s soldiers on this discussion.
 * http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvGby_G49vQ&feature=related —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.234.13.75 (talk) 08:07, 24 January 2010 (UTC)


 * http://www.facebook.com/group.php?v=app_2373072738&gid=18734002777#/topic.php?uid=18734002777&topic=4815 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.234.13.75 (talk) 08:25-22:44, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

CRETAN TURKS

Sorry but I can't see any connection with this man and the turkish cretan or if you want to call Muslim Cretan community. I am speaking about the identity but this man's family is living in Libya even before the population exchange. You can ask to the community in Lebanon they never call themselves as greek. Ask to the family of Bekraki and Turks in Lebanon what is their identity.http://www.facebook.com/groups/ulinnoha/. Moreover, %99 of the cretan population is now living in Turkey (we are about 500.000), never use the Greek name as an identity. A Libyan man speaking English can't be the prove of your arguments. I can't see any connection between this man and me.If you insist to insult or make a customization, that's good to be Ataturk's soldier if I am, it means that you are always a looser against me.

What about the face of this man? Is it a prove?, is it an argument?. I am impressed really. Go to the Khos or Rhodes island in your country and ask to the most of muslim people if they feel more turkish or greek they are mostly moved there from crete and not only one people like this Libyan man, they are about 5000. They have never lived in Turkey never been informed about the turkish official history, however, now living in Greece with Turkish identity. You, greek nationalist that is so much to explain how the identities are made. I am not asserting a %100 turkish genetic with pure central asian blood just I am speaking about our identity. You are obsessed to believe your state history. Continue to believe that we feel Greek or muslim greek maybe you can sleep happy with this  fairy tale but you can't made our identity and history with your small keyboard. Yes Hasan Taranaki, I am impressed really, should I smile or not ? I think that this title is really good and I am proud to be a Cretan Turk although religious or genetic or just my idea. Come to turkey if you want to know Turkish Cretans speak with us, travel and see the world not read only, do not be obsessed in the books, but be careful and do not speak (or generalise) about the feelings of people that you don't know personally and you can't speak or express your feelings instead of us. We know who we are. --78.181.133.245 (talk) 21:23, 27 May 2012 (UTC) Robredo 28.05.2012 00.22

this article should be named as cretan muslims
As a third generation cretan muslim from antalya, turkey, i object to the name of this article. turk is a name of ethnicity. but the academical researches made by some turkish historians shows us that during the ottoman period there were no immigration from anatolia to crete. the muslim population was formed as the local christian people converted to islam. there are hard evidence about this issue in many researches but there are no documents about any immigration policy used by ottomans for crete. as a third generation cretan i have no problem admitting that my ancestors were greek. in fact i am proud of that. i believe this article should be renamed as cretan muslims. i think it is the most accurate name historically... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.180.232.255 (talk) 15:33, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

The title of this article is good I am a Cretan Turk

I am a third generation Cretan (from my father and mother) from Izmir. My identity is Cretan Turkish and I am proud of it. However I admit that most of people (but not all) are converted to Islam but that's not true that there were no turkish people in the Island and http://digitalcrete.ims.forth.gr/tourkology_stele_search.php?l=1 from this sites you can see the turkish (Ottoman) tombstones and family names however they were minority. Turkish and muslim identity were mixed in Europe and most of people who were not speaking Turkish in Balkans were accepting the turkish identity I can say that a high number of Balkan refugees are from this category. The Cretan Turk is an identity and more than a genetical researche. It means that you are Ottoman and share the same destiny. In Greece also there are so many christian Albanians who adopted the Greek identity historicaly but now you can't ignore their history. Turk-Ottoman-Muslim  /  Shia-İranian-Azerbaidjani / Orthodox- Greek- Rum (Roman)  they are all identities mixed up with religion and history. I take pride to be Turkish Cretan and I like and approve the name of this article, as Cretan Turks. Robredo --78.181.133.245 (talk) 22:02, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

I agree this article should be named as cretan muslims not turks. I am also a third generation Cretan and my family never call themselves as turk but muslims. Only local people calls them turk as a synonym of muslim. If there is no objection in next two days I will change the name - MastifCorrect

Sourcing
User:Gun Powder Ma has deleted content claiming "not adequate source; user believes this to be the standard view, yet is unable to find a reliable, published and scholarly source confirming it". In fact, it is sourced to the Historical Atlas of Islam and to a study on Ottoman and Venetian Crete published by Princeton University Press. Sounds pretty reliable, published, and scholarly to me, yet Ma persists in deleting it (not even just labelling it as needing better sources). There is in addition a reference to an unpublished M.S. thesis, which I agree is not as solid a source, and which I marked with "better source needed" in response to previous edits. I have also added a fourth source agreeing with these, which Ma has left undeleted. Not sure I understand the rationale for all this. --Macrakis (talk) 14:30, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I can help you out there: Our dispute was about your use of a student's master thesis (!) to support a central statement in the lead. This is not a WP:reliable source. Thanks that you finally removed the source. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 22:17, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
 * No, you removed three sources: the Molly Greene book and the Historical Atlas of Islam as well as the master's thesis (which I agree is a weak source). You claim to have removed the Greene source because a page number was not given.  I added the page number, and you removed it again.  I added the Historical Atlas of Islam material and you removed that as well.  If your problem is just with the Bayraktar source, why did you not simply remove that one source (or leave the "better source" tag)? --Macrakis (talk) 03:11, 21 July 2012 (UTC)