Talk:Crime in Estonia

No merge
Please no merge.. write more..read more..learn more. --Cool Cosmos 20:07, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
 * wow signed by clicking. --Cool Cosmos 20:08, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree.. don't merge

this page should be either expanded or simply deleted as it ha sno encyclopediac value. For example "The Stasi Group is an ethnic Russian gang which specialises in stealing cars and selling them back to their owners" states nothing of the number, extent, recentactivities or even relevance. 82.131.28.151 20:40, 18 October 2007 (UTC)


 * The article has encyclopedic potential as a standard sub-topic for each country. Crime is a vital article, so articles about crime in a country are sub-topics of the crime article. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 08:29, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

Current state of the article
This article is beyond salvation. We should scrap this whole garbage and start anew, this time with better approach, such like Crime in Canada or Crime in the United States has. Maybe we can then avoid ridiculous edits and such from users who are not looking to improve Wikipedia, only further their personal POV. -- Sander Säde  07:19, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Some editors read the New York Times. PasswordUsername (talk) 07:33, 14 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Agree. Edits like that are essentially vandalism. Crime in the United States would be a good example to base an article on. What PasswordUsername is trying to do is equivalent to quoting every single minor crime from every single possible source to try to paint a distorted picture of the country. And then all the OR about "groups" w/o sources. How about some international comparisons and aggregate statistics instead?radek (talk) 07:41, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * What I am trying to do is present a well-drawn profile of the historical criminal situation in the country, and as it is now. You guys are really preventing me from proceeding in this manner. I didn't write anything about groups. You're accusing me of things I haven't even done. PasswordUsername (talk) 07:51, 14 June 2009 (UTC)


 * What in the world does this: "I am trying to do is present a well-drawn profile of the historical criminal situation in the country" mean? Please look at comparable articles, like Crime in United States or Crime in Canada for comparison/basis. This isn't a coatrack to drag out every insignificant "real crime" in Estonia newspaper story. And of course, it all needs to be source, which it ain't right now.radek (talk) 08:26, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

I've posted a notice to AN:I about the issue. Predictably, PU has ignored the Molestation section in his reply. -- Sander Säde  08:18, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * It's deft how promptly you posted this, Mr. Sade. All of that is perfectly well-addressed. You're deluding yourself if you think child molestation is not a major problem in the Vaabarik. PasswordUsername (talk) 10:49, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

For reasons too complex to go into here, Helsinkin Sanomat is not a good source about this topic. ΔιγουρενΕμπρος! 08:33, 14 June 2009 (UTC)


 * If the rate of child molestation is really very high compared with other EU members, I can't see why should it be omitted here. It's an ugly topic, sure, but it doesn't mean this does not exist; and so is the whole topic Crime in Estonia. Just a recent piece on a 'hot Estonian guy' and a 12 (!) year old girl: (Postimees), gtranslate. Miacek  (t) 10:04, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Disruption without reverting
PasswordUsername has began repeatedly inserting into this article badly written, badly sourced, and misquoted claims with a rather obvious political purpose. Interestingly, where people with such agendas typically fall to reverting to their version rapidly, he has instead chosen the tactic of switching to *another* BW, BS, MQ claim when one of his previous ones has been removed. Very creative; I've rarely seen this on Wikipedia before. But still disruptive, and should be discontinued immediately.

P. S. Prostitution is legal under Estonian law. ΔιγουρενΕμπρος! 08:04, 14 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I am rubber, you're glue, everything you say bounces off me and sticks to you. That's a joke – but laughable claims like that actually do bounce off. Perhaps you should start talking about specifics instead of attacking editors who contribute researched material to this article.


 * P. S. Child prostitution is not legal under Estonian law.
 * PasswordUsername (talk) 10:40, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Merge discussion
I support the proposed merge. Without any doubt, it's the way to go -- that other article is very short and would be much better understood in the context of this article here.

P. S. Most of the prostitutes identified in Finland as having come from Estonia are former Soviet citizen without any post-1991 citizenship. ΔιγουρενΕμπρος! 08:44, 14 June 2009 (UTC)
 * How do you know this?
 * They don't have citizenship why? PasswordUsername (talk) 10:05, 14 June 2009 (UTC)


 * If you wish to discuss the citizenship issue, there are articles for which that conversation is appropriate and would contribute to improving content. "Why?" Well, non-citizens can travel visa-free (Schengen) yet still get preferential treatment for travel to Russia, non-citizenship is not an impediment to private enterprise,...--there are more reasons for people being non-citizens, including personal choice, than the implication (admittedly my inference here) that Estonia is 100% at fault and to blame for those who, two decades after Estonian independence, remain non-citizens. Thank you. PetersV     TALK 04:21, 15 June 2009 (UTC)


 * What's there to know? When people suspected of a crime are arrested in Finland, it's routine for the police to identify them, and for foreigners, it includes determination of citizenship and previous country of residence. Дигвурен ДигвуровичАллё? 19:34, 17 June 2009 (UTC)


 * "P. S. Most of the prostitutes..." Source, please? Peltimikko (talk) 20:59, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

I finally merged the articles, i.e. Human trafficking in Estonia (now redirect) to this article. The section should be reviewed and updated, though... well, this goes for the whole article, actually, it is a complete and utter mess. -- Sander Säde 09:00, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I've also made Estonian mafia redirect here since it contained no sourced content. Cordless Larry (talk) 20:08, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Collecting sources
I am starting to collect sources to rewrite the article; as it is a way too big of a piece for me to bite alone, please, do help with both sources and rewriting. -- Sander Säde  08:47, 14 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Drug Offences and Their Effect on Crime Situation in Estonia in 1999-2004
 * Estonian Prison System and Probation Supervision Yearbook (2007 seems to be the latest)
 * Statistics Estonia: Legal System
 * Statistics Estonia: Crime

Kapo has closed an interesting case
For those interested,. Eleven convicted of crimes ranging from embezzlement to illegal hunting. But I'm not sure if this fits into this article; maybe we should instead cover general trends rather than individual incidents. Дигвурен ДигвуровичАллё? 19:27, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Trafficking in Persons Report
I have moved the Trafficking in Persons Report into a separate section because this seems the most sensible option, and not just because I've just added a ton of text that probably needs hacking down to size by someone with better editing skills than I. One of the problems with a page on crime is that it's a moving target: references a decade old, describing how things were shortly after the break up of the soviet union, aren't really even relevant any more.

This report is the main international source for comparative trafficking analysis, updated annually, and merging it with information from other reports would cause significant problems for editors/maintainers: they'll have to establish (as I just had to) whether a sentence was from the now-obsolete TIP report of a previous year, or from some other source.

If something in a section being maintained contradicts the information being added, a maintainer needs to be able to tell whether it is because the state of affairs has changed (in which case the maintainer can either throw out the obsolete information, or retain it as a historical note); or whether it is because there is disagreement amongst sources (in which case the maintainer should highlight the disagreement).

If TIP-report info is mixed with other sources, then we'd need to tackle this confusion annually. DewiMorgan (talk) 20:48, 19 August 2012 (UTC)