Talk:Crime in Melbourne/Archive 1

Was the attempted hit on Carl Williams before or after the murder of Gangitano? Because that's also being talked about as a cause. I wonder if there'd be a better location for this article. I wouldn't mind writing articles on some of these people though. Carl was gay.Ambivalenthysteria 12:31, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * It's certainly more than a single news story. I chose the title because of Crime in Sydney, but I agree there's probably a better title. Perhaps something like Organized Crime in Melbourne? - AJ


 * Perhaps, but it depends - is it going to focus on the history of organized crime in Melbourne, going back fifty, sixty, seventy years, or just on the latest turf war? If it's going to focus on the latter, it should probably have a different name. Ambivalenthysteria 13:08, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Why is Chopper Read thrown in there? He's probably one of the important figures in the recent history of organised crime in Melbourne, but as this article stands, it's about the gangland killings, which has nothing to do with him. It's also under that heading. Ambivalenthysteria 12:48, 18 Apr 2004 (UTC)


 * I threw Chopper Read because, even if he is not the most important figure, he's the best known. I guess it brings us back to the dillema above, which leads me to the question, do the latest turf wars justify their own article? Or do we do an article on Melbourne's organized crime over several decades (probably more insightful; with research you could build context for the latest turf wars). Or do we have two articles to cover them? I'm up for any of those options... -AJ


 * I wonder what we could use as a title for one on the latest turf wars. I think it could be better to give them their own article - as can by seen by the state of this one, there's a fair bit to write about. Then we could do a (I agree, more insightful) history of organised crime in Melbourne. in this article, and link to the one on the turf wars. Ambivalenthysteria 03:28, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)

How factual is the information in Melbourne Underworld Factions? Some of it seems like a bad crime novel. Hypernovean 13:07, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)


 * What seems particularly wrong there? I think it needs a rewrite, and I have suspicions of copyvio from the same site as Frank Benvenuto. However, I think a lot of that could make for an interesting read. Ambivalenthysteria 07:15, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)


 * I was about to post something similar to Hypernovean. And I agree with Ambivalenthysteria; the post is interesting. But my main concern with it - aside from CopyVio - is the basis for the information there. Most of the rest of the article is based on newspaper articles; what's the source for that section? Is it anything other than mere speculation and gossip?


 * That wouldn't be as much of a problem, until I also noticed that the disclaimer I put at the top is now gone... --AmishThrasher 10:32, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)


 * It's received a heck of a lot of press coverage. I don't think the press articles are too bad a source, and it's certainly an important issue at the moment, with the corruption debate going on. As long as there's no copyvio issues, I can't see any reason for it not to stay, with a copyedit.


 * What disclaimer was this, though? Ambivalenthysteria 11:36, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)

pre-WWII crime in Melbourne
I am wondering what, if any, work is being planned for the Early History of this article?

There's certainly a lot of material available, especially given Frank Hardy's "fictional" novel Power Without Glory and similar. It's been a few years since I've read up on much of it, but it's certainly something I wouldn't mind delving into again. Particularly the roles of Jack Wren, Squizzy Taylor, Daniel Mannix and Frank Hardy (in publishing it). It also includes the time of the only ever police strike in Melbourne and all sorts of other entertainment.

BenM 07:51, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * Good bloody question.... at the moment I only have informatoin form the painters and dockers onwards, so we need pre 1950s stuff there Agnte 20:40, 14 October 2005 (UTC)

--

Why is the Liberal Party of Australia a "right-wing" party and the ALP a "centre-right" party? I am not trying to create an argument here, but i think it'd be more factually accurate if these terms were edited out. Perhaps it could be pointed out that the Liberal Party is the more conservative of the two, if it is deemed necessary to demonstrate your point, because "right-wing" makes it sound like some neo-nazi group.

-lara

please cleanup article
this article is a mess, the structure is confused, history is spread out over different sections. it needs a good rewrite/restructure. if i knew more about melbourne and/or melbourne crime, i'd do it. clarkk 13:43, 16 May 2005 (UTC)
 * I don't think this is at the right place in the first place. While a history of organized crime in Melbourne may be an interesting article, this isn't that article (and even if it was, it should be renamed anyway). Anyway, I'd prefer to see it renamed ****-05 Melbourne gangland war or something along those lines. It'd be much easier then to get it into some sort of decent shape. Ambi 14:12, 16 May 2005 (UTC)


 * I look at this article a lot and shake my head. I often wonder where to go with it. How about we rename it Operation Purana, which is what the taskforce investigating the Melbourne underworld murders is known as? We can then trim the remainder of left over information into useful stubs. Half of the guys mentioned in this article had nothing to do with the underworld war and need removing if we're taking that direction. -- Longhair | Talk 17:30, 16 May 2005 (UTC)


 * I think this should really be split into three articles - History of organized crime in Melbourne for the earlier stuff, ****-2005 Melbourne gangland war or something similar as a timeline of events (and giving the broader picture, such as the political ramifications, and a more specific Operation Purana, on the investigation and capture of those involved. Ambi 05:00, 17 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Attempting to do this now Agnte 17:17, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

Where the heck does this 'information' come from?
I think this article suffers not from structural issues so much as from being utterly ridiculous. "Caulfield, a Jewish Suburb" - even the Herald Sun wouldn't print this vague rubbish. Someone needs to come clean and explain where their sources came from - something to the effect of "My sister's boyfriend said that his brother said that his mate's cousin read in the paper one night...", no doubt. -Colonel Mustard

Parking some completely unreferenced stuff here until someone comes up with some actual evidence to support it
The validity of the following section is not established.

Melbourne underworld factions

The Mafia (or Honored Society) Former Godfather: Frank Benvenuto

The Melbourne Mafia controls the fruit and vegetable industry and markets of Melbourne. Since the Market Wars of 60’s the headquarters have moved from Queen Victoria Market, and now operate out of the Footscray Wholesale market. The Mafia’s activities include price fixing, extortion, marijuana growing and cocaine/ heroin importing. In 1999 Joe Quadara former millionaire and market identity was shot dead by two men as he arrived for work. Then in 2000 Godfather Frank Benvenuto was shot dead outside his Beaumaris home, some believe it to be payback for the 1992 killing of brother-in-law Alfonso Muratore.

The Organatiza (or Russian Mafia) Boss: Unnamed

The Organatiza operates out of St Kilda (red light district) and Caufield (a Jewish suburb). The organisation consists of members who have an Eastern European or Former Soviet Republics background. Its main activities include abalone poaching, fraud, extortion, prostitution and immigration and mail-order bride rackets. In 2003 Istvan "Steve" Gulyas and his wife were executed; They ran a dating agency linking Victorian men with Russian woman. The agency was suspected of doubling as a brothel. In 2002 Michael Goldman had attempted to execute fellow criminal turned informer Alexander Kudryavstev with a bullet to the head.

The Painters and Dockers Most prominent figure: Graeme "The Munster" Kinniburgh

A loose coalition of Australian criminals, the Painter and Dockers control the wharves and docks of the Port of Melbourne. During the Dock Wars of the 80’s over 40 men were killed. The groups main activities include standing over drug shipments and other contraband, ghosting rackets, large scale theft and drug importing. Victor Peirce and Jason Moran both murdered have worked as painters and dockers. In 2003 Graeme "The Munster" Kinniburgh was executed outside his Kew house. He was a master safecracker with infamous Magnetic Drill Gang and fence for the UK-based shoplifting group known as the Kangaroo Gang.

The Carlton Crew Former Boss: Alphonse Gangitano Current Boss: Dominic “the Don” Gatto

A predominantly Italian group that operates out of Carlton (the little Italy of Melbourne) and surrounding areas, with links to the Mafia. The groups main activities include standing over restaurants/ night clubs/ building sites, illegal gaming and the manufacture of party drugs. In 1998 the “prince of lygon street” Alphonse Gangitano was shot dead. In 1999 Vincenzo Mannella was shot dead near his home, months later brother Gerardo Manella was shot dead. In 2004 current boss Dominic “the Don” Gatto was arrested for killing suspected hit man Andrew “Benji” Veniamen.

The Sunshine Crew Former Boss: Dino Dibra

A predominantly Italian group similar to the Carlton Crew that operates out of Sunshine and the inner western suburbs of Melbourne. The groups various activities include growing hydroponic marijuana, a stolen car racket, kidnap/ extortion and drug dealing. In 2000 mob leader Dino Dibra was blasted to death outside a home in West Sunshine. In 2002 partner in crime Rocco Arico was the main suspect in the execution of stand over man Richard "The Lionheart" Mladenich. Following this Rocco Arico and Terrence Chimirri pleaded guilty to kidnapping for ransom.

The Pettingill Clan Matriarch: Kath Pettingill

The Pettingill Clan is an extended crime family that still remains 49 strong and operates out of Richmond. The groups main activities include drugs, vice and robbery. The Matriarch Kath Pettingill used to run several brothels in the Richmond area. In 1987 Dennis “Dr D” Allen (one of Kath’s sons) died of drug-induced heart failure, he was connected to up to 15 underworld murders. Then in 2002 Victor Pierce (one of Kath’s sons) acquitted of murder over the Walsh Street police shootings, and hired muscle for Godfather Frank Benvenuto, was executed in Port Melbourne.

The Moran Family Former patriarch: Lewis &#8220;the Fly&#8221; Moran

The Moran Family has their roots with the painters and dockers and is heavily involved in the drug scene they operate out of the Pascoe Vale/ Essendon area. In 2000 Mark Moran was executed in front of his $1 million home, just like his father Leslie "Johnny" Cole who was executed near his home in the 80&#8217;s Sydney Underworld War. In 2003 Jason Moran along with bodyguard Pasquale &#8220;Little Pat&#8221; Barbaro were executed in Essendon. In 2004 Lewis &#8220;the Fly&#8221; Moran was executed in Brunswick also hit was Herbert &#8220;Bertie&#8221; Wrout. &#8220;Tuppence&#8221; Moran is now left flying the flag.

The Williams Family Boss: Carl “the Commissioner” Williams

Relative newcomers to the amphetamine industry, sometimes referred to as “Steptoe and Son”, the father and son drug team of George and Carl Williams operating out of Broadmeadows in the north western suburbs. In 1999 Carl Williams was shot in the stomach by one of the Moran brothers over unpaid debts. Defacto Brother-in-law Thomas Hentschell along with Victor “the Marathon Man” Brincat were charged over the murder of drug dealer Michael Marshall. In 2004 Andrew “Benji” Veniamen who acted as a bodyguard for Carl Williams was shot dead, he was the suspected hitman in up to 7 underworld deaths.

Other crime syndicates
 * The Radev Gang
 * The Mokbel Brothers
 * The Chinese Triads

It all sounds great, reminds me of the last Cliff Hardy novel I read. Damn good story. Is any of it true? Where are the references? Tannin 11:11, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Needs more info on other crimes e.g. "Mr Cruel"

Thoughts on Attempted Cleanup
So the bulk of the information (under history) about the tit for tat killings between 1998 (Gangitano murder) and 2004 (Veniamin murder, Carl Williams arrest) needs to go into a seperate section, called something like Melbourne gangland killings (98-04), as this bit of history should only be one section of a much more general Crime in Melbourne article  Agnte 16:37, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Alright, I've done this, will do more, work in progress, still needs cleanup and a boatload of references Agnte 17:24, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Pulled out specific references to melbourne underworld - thats all going in Melbourne gangland killings, have started to index for the majoy events we have pages for. not sure if its better under a timeline or headings for each incident, or other listing suggestions....? Agnte 19:33, 14 October 2005 (UTC)