Talk:Crime of the Century (album)

The song "Crime of the Century"
Does anyone here know why producer Ken Scott would playback the tape of the harmonica intro from "School" before the song "Crime of the Century" fades out?

This is more evident on the live version Supertramp did in November 1979 in Paris. After all the synthesizers die down, you can clearly hear the opening harmonica intro to the studio version of "School."

WikiPro1981X (talk) 01:08, 8 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Another question relating to the same song; is it supported by sources that it is supposed to be a collaboration between Rick and Roger? Because Roger never listed it as such on his website, and his objection to the "Paris" DVD was that the writers weren't listed. The version that was finally approved by him had "School" listed in mixed colours to indicate it as a collaboration, but not "Crime of the Century" - which indicates that he doesn't claim a credit for it. Jules TH 16 (talk) 14:51, 20 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Who can say why record producers do the things they do? If he hasn't commented in an interview, I guess he doesn't think it's important. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:18, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

Genre (Progressive Rock)
Although the album's current genre "Art rock" fits, Progressive rock should also be added. This album was made by Supertramp during their Prog era, and countless reviews from websites like Sputnik music and Ultimate Guitar call it Prog. Y45ed (talk) 23:06, 8 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Agreed. Dan56's reasoning for discounting the Sputnik review is weak at best, since the context makes it obvious what the reviewer meant by "progressive music". (Not to mention, the review also uses the term "prog"!) Since it's been over four days since you posted this and no one's voiced any objections, I'll go ahead and put "progressive rock" back in.--Martin IIIa (talk) 13:36, 13 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Everyone knows "prog" is short for "progressive rock," just like everyone knows "rock" is short for "rock and roll." It's a shortsighted interpretation to argue a point based on rock critics using abbreviated term for genres, when none of them have said the entire term in print in decades. It's entirely likely that no music writer in history has ever used the term "progressive rock and roll electric guitar music."--Madrigalbladder (talk) 17:07, 17 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Cite a source that says "progressive rock" or refrain from genre warring at this article. WP:NOR is clear on citing sources that directly and explicitly support what is being cited rather than making novel interpretations of said sources. Dan56 (talk) 01:51, 17 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Dan56, I suggest you read over threads before replying to them. Y45ed and Martin IIIa have already refuted the argument you state here.--NukeofEarl (talk) 16:57, 17 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Dan56, after investigating the edit history i discovered that it was you who originally removed Progressive rock from the album's genres, without providing a reason for doing so. Y45ed (talk) 23:30, 17 September 2013 (UTC)


 * a. Not agreeing with NOR is not refuting it. b. The content was unsourced, so I replaced it with something that is sourced. c. We are relying on an editor's interpretation of what the source says instead of what it actually says (WP:STICKTOSOURCE). Stick to the source or find one that actually says "progressive rock". P.S. Cute way of getting back at me for reverting your disruptive editing to PBR&B, Madrigalbladder. Dan56 (talk) 01:42, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Just to add some sources, Mojo refers to the album's music as "the music mixed the ambition and scale of prog rock with Hogson's instinctive feel for a poppy melody, which drew in listeners who steered well clear of King Crimson or Gentle Giant's knottier constructions." (source). Personally to avoid edit warring, I try to lean towards sources that discuss the sound of the album and how it suits it. I'm not sure if Chrstgau's art-rock assertion is appropriate as he says "art rock" then follows it up with "sort of". I would prefer if text was expanded within the article to suggest the sound beyond just citing something in the infobox. Andrzejbanas (talk) 12:23, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
 * a. We all agree with NOR. What we disagree with is your warped interpretation of one of its subclauses. b. Not clear what you're talking about here. What content? c. As NukeofEarl said, this point has already been refuted. P.S. See WP: Assume good faith and WP: GRUDGE.--Martin IIIa (talk) 12:33, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Sorry, Martin IIIa, but I think quoting "Assume good faith" is giving Dan56's accusation far too much credit. To even suggest that an editor would make a reasoned and relevant post to an article's talk page as an act of revenge is ludicrous.
 * I've reverted Dan56's recent edit to the infobox, first and foremost because Progressive music simply goes to a disambiguation page. Also, since it contradicts the same opinions as Dan56's original edit did, it's not a compromise edit by any stretch of the imagination.--NukeofEarl (talk) 15:45, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
 * You're clearly not very intuitive. Dan56 (talk) 02:33, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Also, Dan56, you are completely ignoring the rest of the review. You are just using the fact that is says "progressive music" as a shield. It also says the album is from the "sea of 70s progressive rock albums" and that it's songs are prog. This is a much stronger source than the one citing "art rock"Y45ed (talk) 17:29, 18 September 2013 (UTC)


 * You cited this review, right? I'm not seeing "prog rock" or "progressive rock" anywhere. "Progressive music" redirects to a list that includes "art rock" atop, perhaps that's a hint, wink wink. You're being unreasonable. The source does not say "progressive rock", plain and simple. According to whom does "prog" mean "progressive rock"? The review doesn't even use the word "rock". What review are you reading that it says "sea of 70s progressive rock albums"? Dan56 (talk) 02:19, 19 September 2013 (UTC)


 * WP:STICKTOSOURCE is self-explanatory (warped interpretation?), unlike you're interpretation of "progressive music" as "progressive rock", the former of which like you said has a dab page. If this genre is an accepted interpretation among appropriate sources like critics or journalists, why don't you just find a source that actually says "prog rock" or "progressive rock"? Dan56 (talk) 02:21, 19 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Dan56, "Progressive" is not a genre. Removing the link just so it doesn't link to a disambiguation page doesn't make it valid. Put it this way; it is a rock album, and it's progressive. I'll let you figure the rest out by yourself. Y45ed (talk) 16:44, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Sputnik Music doesn't say the album is "progressive rock". Your interpretation of the source is WP:SYNTHESIS. If you read the review it says "Musically, on Crime of the Century Supertramp play 70's radio-pop with strong progressive tendencies". In that sense the word progressive cannot be 100% interpreted to mean "progressive rock", when in the same sentence the review takes about 70s pop. The bit where "progressive" is being cited from is the summary of the review, however, in the actual review the word progressive doesn't refer to a specific genre as per say. As such the source should not be interpreted to mean "progressive rock".  → Lil- ℧niquԐ 1 - {  Talk  } -  21:33, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

From Classic Rock: "With Crime… Supertramp defined their signature sound and created a progressive rock masterpiece." This source seems explicit enough to me. Adabow (talk) 21:46, 19 September 2013 (UTC)


 * There you go then, Classic Rock explicitly calls it Progressive Rock. Dan56, is this reliable enough for you? Y45ed (talk) 21:55, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
 * ^ this is fine by me.  → Lil- ℧niquԐ 1 - {  Talk  } -  22:25, 19 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Yes, because it clearly says "progressive rock", unlike the previous source. Added. Dan56 (talk) 23:57, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

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Personnel - instruments
The Personnel section is currently unsourced. Here's an image of the original back cover with the instrument credits. Here's a typical list of personnel. Where have all the additions/ embellishments come from? Particularly the synthesizers? This review specifically says this: "With the stunning 1974 release Crime of the Century, London’s Supertramp suddenly exhibited a consistency of band sound, eschewing the ubiquitous electric guitar and the obligatory synthesizer of most progressive rock bands, in favor of grand piano, the distinctive percussive Wurlitzer electric, and John Helliwell‘s clarinet and saxophone solos, giving Supertramp a decidedly Continental feel. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:32, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Good spot... I think they may have used a tiny bit of synth here and there. Here is a site that says Davies played Moog on School (the low drone intro?), Hide in Your Shell and Rudy, plus string synth on Hide in Your Shell. However that info may well come from an earlier version of this wikipage... Jules TH 16 (talk) 16:44, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Well, it's probably likely, as the original cover credits Davies with "keyboards". But I would have expected some more obviously reliable source(s), maybe even a book source. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:56, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

I met John Helliwell and his wife at a neighbour's party in Todmorden, where he once lived. John's wife told me she sang on the album. Does anyone know anything about additional vocals?130.88.123.137 (talk) 14:21, 9 February 2023 (UTC)