Talk:Crimean Karaites/Archive 3

The article is full of Crackpot Right-wing Zionist Bias Fringe theory Original Research!
I am a Christian Zionist, but this article takes the biscuit! No offense but how the hell has this "Nepolkanov" been allowed to make up all this ultra right-wing crap? Not even the slightest attemtp to look at the subject from the point of view of the Caraims themselves has been made. Look, basically there are at least 4 different groups (with no love lost between them I might add) which could be referred to under this extremely ambiguous term "Crimean Karaites". they are related to the still very Christian Caraims of Lithuania, West Ukraine, and Poland. They also have a group in Moscow (http://www.kommersant.ru/doc/2289873). Those in Moscow speak only Russian, but those in Lithuania along with the Krymkaraylar, they also claim origins with a Christian branch of Tatars who arrived with Batu Khan and Mongke Khan, but their language is more closely related to Cuman (Polovtsi) than to Tatar. Their religion was only very recently codified by Seraya Shapshal who identified their origin as a branch of Turkic Nestorians who became influenced by Ananite Hanafism. They believe that Jesus was Christ but NOT Moshia´(Saviour God the Father), they begin and end EVERY prayer service with Atamyz (Our Father). They venerate the Old Testament Lectionary above all other scriptures as sacred, but they also read virtually anything including Talmud, the Gospels, and the Quran being basically "Chrislamic" (as was Tolstoy) in that they respect Mohamed as a true prophet despite being Christians. References to this crackpot Czech-Israeli author Libor "Nissim" Valko´s fringe theory website seriously need to be removed. The whole article needs to be re-written to remove the heavy right-wing Zionist bias (no doubt intended to prove Anan ben David´s Masjid in East Jerusalem is a Jewish Synagogue. More of the same anti-Palestinian revisionism we see everywhere. Come on now then please. Remove some of this Crackpot ultra right-wing Zionist bias. 79.109.203.252 (talk) 18:03, 17 April 2015 (UTC)
 * 1) One is Qaraite Jews (followers of Daniel Qumusi, NOT Anan ben David) who live in Crimea. This group is related the the Qaraite Jews of Haskoy in Istanbul. They are properly called Karahim. They are basically Jews, they pray in Synagogues with a Bima. They are not much different at all from the Egyptian Qaraite Jews of Israel.
 * 2) Another group are basically just Muslims who call themselves Qaraims once very common among Seljuks and Turkomen. They are perhaps best represented by a former Jew called Yitzhak Solomons (self-styled "Amir" Ishaq Al-Sulaimani) basically following a kind of Hanafi Madhab Islam derived from his ultimate student Anan ben David (the only student of Abu Hanifa who was imprisoned with him). Their story on the life and teachings of Anan is SIGNIFICANTLY different from the mainstream Orthodox Jewish biography about him.
 * 3) Another are the Krymkaraylar of Polkanov and Ormeli´s group. Their culture descends from a Christian branch of the Crimean Tatars called Karaits who arrived with Batu Khan during the 1240s but who were Judaized by the Genoese Jewish Merchant families such as the Ghisolfi in the 1400s. From the time of Sima Babovich they have been using the International Hebrew Calendar EVERY year but observe all the holidays one day after the Rabbinical Jews. Ilya Kazas defined their religion as a Judaized branch of Molokans (Spiritual Christians). They are basically nothing but a Turkic group of Sabbatarians (Subbotniki). http://www.proza.ru/2009/10/12/1336 http://kavpolit.com/iudei-kavkaza/
 * 1) Finally Krymchakhs, whose language is indistinguishable from Caraimean Tatar are also referred to as Crimean Karait Jews being descended from Karaits who were not just Judaized into Subbotniki but wentr all the way and became full Jews.
 * The source of your misunderstanding is that Karaite Judaism consider the Muchamed and Jesus as profits of Tora for other nations, but not as profits of their own. Yefet ben Ali and other authors, recognized by all Karaites, claimed that their profit gift is less than gift of Moses The last part was omitted by Crimean Karaites authors in their articles  trying to prove that they are not Jew to their antisemitic environments. Karaites(Crimean and other) do not consider themselves as Muslims or  Christians and have nothing with these religions . Trying being patient with you  -Неполканов (talk) 10:54, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

If It was not clear above, I am just going to re-iterate here, that the article as it stands is Synthetic Original Research trying to blend all the various different types of people referred to as "Crimean Karaites" into one. This page needs to become a disambiguation page. 79.109.203.252 (talk) 08:51, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

I have removed a large section of Synthesis from the Article, but there si still a LOT more which still has to be removed before it starts to resemble reality.79.109.203.252 (talk) 10:12, 20 April 2015 (UTC)
 * You can have your objections, but when you admit that you see it everywhere, you have agreed that they are mainstream. SamuelDay1 (talk) 00:28, 21 April 2015 (UTC)


 * You have stated that you are a Christian Zionist. In this case you have a direct involvement in the subject matter of the article and are barred from editing it under Wikipedia's conflict of interest policy as any edits are unlikely to be neutral.  If you wish to make edits to the article, you can only propose the edits on the talk page (stating what you want changed and to what).  If an uninvolved editor believes your change is in the interest of an neutral article and is adequately supported by those all important WP:SECONDARY sources, then they may make the change on your behalf (it is best to use the  template, which declares a COI edit that is pending).  Otherwise, it is all down to consensus from other editors (which will be unlikely if there are no sources).  DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 15:37, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

Firstly, the only thing which I said is everywhere is anti-palestinian revisionism. If you guyus want to try and be clever then be clever and not sly. Never quote out of context.But the content of this article is Original Research and Synthesis to fit in with the anti-Palestinian revisionism. You are explicitly agreeing that this IS right-wing Zionism (I am left wing), and that I have a conflict of interest as a result of being a Zionist. Howver, you clearly identify yourselves as right-wing Zionists therefore ALL your copntributions must be removed and you all must be barred from editing the article.

Please explain how you are not playing the double standards game?

By the way, you claimed that you are not an admin earlier, are you now indicating that you are and admin but you don´t want to be neutral? Looks like the [WP:COI is going to boomerang on you now. 79.109.203.252 (talk) 17:34, 21 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Who are you responding to? Unless you indent correctly, no one has a clue. 86.153.132.83 (talk) 13:16, 22 April 2015 (UTC)


 * I believe he is responding to and making unwarranted allegations agains me (as well as everyone else you disagrees with him). I have no idea what gave you the idea that I was, "... indicating that you are and admin".  I have tried to be helpful and all I get is abuse.  I have had enough of this and am taking the issue to WP:SPI and WP:ANI. DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 15:16, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

Original Research Synthesis and Much Much Worse
The facts concerning the Crimean Karaites can be read in any russian article like these here http://www.proza.ru/2009/10/12/1336 here http://kavpolit.com/iudei-kavkaza/ and perhaps most reliably here http://www.kommersant.ru/doc/2289873 The information in this wikipedia article does not in any way resemble the facts. It is a pure Original Research Synthesizing highly selective scraps and quotes from various sources to present Crimean Karaites (a term which refers to at least 4 different groups) as one group entirely from a right-Wing Zionist POV. Crimean Karaites are not and never have been recognized as Jews, they are not allowed to make Aliyah they are recognized as Subbotniks and are permitted to reside in Israel under the Law of return which is not the same thing as Aliyah. The Karaite Jewish University and the disciples of Libor Nissim Valko and COMJUCASE make money out of lying to people like Christian Zionists to say that we can make Aliyah to Israel if we convert to their form of "Crimean Karaism". This is a Scam pure and simple. This wiki article is NOTHING but a publicity stunt for this scam. Having read through the archived material I can see MANY MANY people have come and pointed out the problems with this article and yet it is the same editors again and again who are ganging up to preserve this bogus material the way it is. Shame on you all. 79.109.203.252 (talk) 18:38, 21 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Kazik! You cites are not RS and they never pretend to be. First one is opened for every one publications. Two others are fully commercial. Do not take them too seriously. Please argue why you think that Zionists hate Crimean Karaites.It sounds ridiculous-what do you think about Shapshal family? According your claims they have no permission for Aliyah.Please read this:Mikhail Kizilov. The Karaites of Galicia: An Ethnoreligious Minority Among the Ashkenazim, the Turks, and the Slavs, 1772—1945 (Studia Judaeoslavica) p. 340  to assure that Saraya's grandson  made  Aliyah without any discrimination in  spite of  his Grandfather's antijudaist brother  . The reason that you  was rejected by Israel Immigration Authorities because you have no any proves that your grandfather was Karaite. The text that you are trying to remove based on several sources, including the site of Ukrainian Crimean Karaites and Karaim-Rusian-Polish vocabulary.So please do not remove it.
 * Polkanov and Ormeli never pretended to be Christians like you wrote . They only claimed for Turkic origin of Crimean Karaites,and the difference of Karaism and Judaism.
 * Take it easy and consider my arguments before your usual unreferenced distributive edits. They are the reasons of your former blockage  and not your POV . It may occur again, even if the arguments about your evident identity to User:Kaz will be not accepted by admins. -Неполканов (talk) 19:55, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

Mikhail Kizilov, of course, it seems it is not against wiki rules to identify editors, as the admins have ignored my request for intervention. Perhaps I misunderstood the rules on Outing. But I should have guessed it was you behind Nepolkanov all along. You of all people should understand the difference between Aliyah and simple immigration under the Law of Return. You have quite a little team of disciples here I see. Were they the same Ukrainian vandals who you paid to help you deface the graves of the Crimean Karaites? Interesting "research methodology". Yes, everyone knows it was you. And you wonder why Caraims hate you? You only post your own opinion and claim that is "reliable". Shame on you all. And shame on you for threatening Prof. Valentin Kefeli for handing the institute over to Hadji Kazimir who by the way was already granted Israeli citizenship it seems. By the way, my name is not Kazik so kindly stop pretending everywhere that I am him. That is harrassment. 79.109.203.252 (talk) 08:49, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

Tag removal
I am in support of removing those issue tags on the header. They are very old and not dated. When those tags were inserted, article looked bad Now it looks good. SamuelDay1 (talk) 04:36, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

Removed them. SamuelDay1 (talk) 05:25, 22 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Agree.-- Toddy1 (talk) 07:33, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

I disagree. The dispute is ongoing, and anyway SamuelDay1 is a sockpuppet of Toddy1. 79.109.203.252 (talk) 08:29, 22 April 2015 (UTC)


 * You have to notice the front of an editor who reverts the tags back in accusing others of edit warring when he is edit warring himself over the very same tags to (as of this post) the tune of 6RR.  And as he used a sockpuppet to effect one of those reverts (to avoid a WP:3RR complaint), there is even more frone to accuse others.  I B Wright (talk) 12:51, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

Yes I_B_WRIGHT these Toddy1 sockpuppets are reverting everything and refactoring talk pages so much it makes the whole thing very difficult to follow. 79.109.203.252 (talk) 15:39, 22 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Not Toddy1. The sockmaster is your self.  The edit warrior is yourself.  Wikipedia works by consensus.  Noboby (that is NOBODY) has supported your edit or viewpoint.  Whereas FIFTY ONE other users have said that you are wrong (thanks for providing the list on your talk page).  Consequently do not further edit the article against consensus.  Also you must not make direct edits to the article due to your declared conflict of interest.  Anyone may revert such an edit using "Revert per WP:COI" as the edit summary.  However, note that this does not appear to be an exemption from the WP:3RR rule for some reason. I B Wright (talk) 08:16, 23 April 2015 (UTC)
 * We have agreed that tags are not needed anymore, 79.109.203.252, you can insert them only when you have some real issues with the article. SamuelDay1 (talk) 12:26, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

Atamyz ki Goklerdesin... (Our Father who art in heaven...)
How can any religion which demands the Our father be recited every morning at least (Crimean Prayer Book) or at the beginning and end of EVERY service (Lithuanian Prayer Book) NOT be considered Christian???? 79.109.203.252 (talk) 10:47, 22 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Kazik! You dismissed again . The part of Jewish(Karaites/and Rabbanists) ceremony Avinu Malkeinu(Our father) pray. Cristians took it from Jews. So it is not pure Crimean Karaites feature, as you misunderstand. -Неполканов (talk) 12:07, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

Mikhail, stop calling me Kaz! If you are trying to claim that the entire text of the Christian Prayer "Our Father" appears in a Jewish shource you had better cite chapter and verse. I want to see you proove your claim. Here is the Christian text of the Our Father in Crimean Karaite language http://www.turkiclanguages.com/www/Atamyz.pdf (and here and of course here) which is obviously taken directly from the Codex Cumanicus as the late Lithuanian Hachan Marek Lavrinovich explained. You said that I have a mental illness, but you are the one who must be mad if you are trying to say that the Crimean Karaite Our Father Prayer is from Judaism rather than Christianity. Please show me exactly where the Complete Our Father prayer occurs in Orthodox Judaism and I will concede and retire with interest. 79.109.203.252 (talk) 15:34, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

Genetics
Karaite women seem to have been mitochondrially haplotype H ie. European ancestry. Most probably from Fenno-Ugric ancestry. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.27.30.118 (talk) 23:04, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
 * "The mtDNA haplogroup H is very commonly encountered among the peoples of Europe, though it is also found (in lesser frequencies) in the northern regions of the Middle East, the southern portions of the Caucasus region, and North Africa".-- Toddy1 (talk) 20:50, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

Plural Karaims or Karaim?
This question is directed mainly for User:Toddy1. Thank you for the corrections to my recent edits in the article. It does look a bit inconsistent/confusing though. For consistency, as "Karaims" is the plural form published in the book titles you corrected here, shouldn't the whole article use the plural as published in the books? Or are there some cases where books on the same subject have used "Karaim" as a plural in their title? I am concerned because after your correction here I used your comments as the basis to correct another article here  but following your subsequent correction here  I am wondering if I should not have done that? What is the correct wiki convention to follow for a topic if published nomenclature is inconsistent? 93.172.131.82 (talk) 07:39, 11 September 2015 (UTC)
 * A book or article title is what it is. We should not change it to something else. The items you queried were as follows:
 * Karaims and Tatars – 600 years in Lithuania
 * A. Malgin. Евреи или тюрки. Новые элементы в идентичности караимов и крымчаков в современном Крыму [Jews or Turks. New elements in the identity of the Karaites and Krypchaks in modern Crimea (2002)]
 * Zajączkowski, Ananiasz. Karaims in Poland: History, Language, Folklore, Science. Panistwowe Wydawn, 1961.
 * web site of Lithuanian Karaims


 * (1) That is the name of the web page.
 * (2) The web page's name is in Russian. The best thing to do is to give the title in the language of the webpage, and a clear English translation.
 * (3) That is the book's title on Amazon. There is a photo of the cover on Amazon...
 * (4) The website says "Lithuanian Karaims" on the front page.
 * -- Toddy1 (talk) 22:24, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

So I shouldn't be concerned then :) 93.172.131.82 (talk) 19:07, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

2002 Statistics
According to this edit  Toddy1 you say you are reverting "edits by User:Kaz's new sockpuppet"

Although I see in other places you seem to infer that I am a sockpuppet of Kaz, in this case I am not sure if you are refering to my contributions or to the subsequent edit by User:Sabbatino here

But what is very clear is that you do like my insertion of the 2002 statistics for Crimea. Thank you. But you don't like the updated 2002 statistics for the rest of the Ukraine. Do you think I have read this source incorrectly? YuHuw (talk) 11:52, 10 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Give it a rest Kazimir!


 * One interesting thing that comes out of this is the changed URL of the citation.
 * Распределение населения по национальности и родному языку УКРАИНА Distribution of the population by nationality and mother tongue, Ukraine (Russian language version) gives the number of Karaites [Караимы] as 1196, of which 72 spoke the language of their nationality, 160 Ukrainian, 931 Russian, and 9 another language as their mother-tongue. The last version using the correct Russian language citation was the version by Неполканов at 21:24, 13 November 2012.
 * About number and composition population of UKRAINE by data All-Ukrainian population census'2001 data (English language version) does not mention Karaite. The edit that introduced the incorrect English language citation was the version by Kepper66 at 09:12, 2 November 2012.


 * What seems to have happened was that the incorrect English citation was reinserted in the cleanup of edits by Special:Contributions/Kaz and his sock Special:Contributions/Budo.


 * The data are available for the Crimea in the 2001 census. The Crimea is split into two parts:
 * Распределение населения по национальности и родному языку, Автономная Республика Крым (Distribution of the population by nationality and mother tongue, Autonomous Republic of the Crimea) 671 (of these the mother tongue was 52 Karaite, 5 Ukrainian, 587 Russian, and 4 other)
 * Распределение населения по национальности и родному языку, Г.Севастополь (горсовет) (Distribution of the population by nationality and mother tongue, Sevastopol (city council)) 44 (of these the mother tongue was 2 Karaite, 1 Ukrainian, 40 Russian, and 0 other)
 * This meant that the number of Karaites in Ukraine according to the 2001 census was:
 * 1196 (total)
 * 715 in the Crimea (671 in the autonomous republic, and 44 in the city of Sevastopol)
 * 481 in the rest of the country (1196-715)
 * The source Kazimir cites is [http://eajc.org/page34/news24063.html The Euro-Asian Jewish Congress article Karaites of Crimea: History and Present-Day Situation in Community, by Tatiana Schegoleva, 29 May 2011. This says:
 * "According to the last census of the population of Ukraine (2002), 671 Karaites live in Crimea (0.03% of the population of the autonomy), while a total of 834 Karaites live in Ukraine. According to some estimates, the Yevpatorian Karaite community consists of around 260 people. Approximately the same number of Karaites lives in Simferopol, around 100 live in Feodosia, around 50 in Sevastopol, 30 – in Yalta, and 50 – in Bakhchisaray."
 * I think that Miss/Mrs Schegoleva has made some errors in her article, such as the date of the census (2002 instead of 2001), and the total number of Karaites in Ukraine (834 instead of 1196). In addition, your interpretation is mistaken, as you did not know that Sevastopol City Council and the Autonomous Republic were counted separately.--  Toddy1 (talk) 13:00, 10 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Please stop calling me Kazimir. Would you like it if someone posted everywhere on Wikipedia calling you by someone else's name? It is quite abusive. :(


 * Back to the statistics you partly removed and partly used, I see you are saying you like one part of the source but you don't like another part of the source, and if you like something then it is reliable but if you don't like something then that is unreliable. I see. Well I suppose there is no discussion on that then. Your Synthesis and Research approach to facts is very Original if not also a little like Butchery. YuHuw (talk) 13:18, 10 January 2016 (UTC)


 * May I ask why you decided not to include Sevastopol's statistics in the Crimean figure then? YuHuw (talk) 13:29, 10 January 2016 (UTC)


 * I did not partly remove. I simply reverted your edits, but preserved Sabbatino's edits.--  Toddy1 (talk) 13:35, 10 January 2016 (UTC)


 * So you are saying he missed something when he moved my Crimea figure to the top?
 * BTW are you calmed down enough to talk on the Talk:Karait page now? YuHuw (talk) 13:43, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
 * I can not see any references to Crimean Karaites in the link provided for the Ukrainian statistic here can you help me see it please? YuHuw (talk) 13:49, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
 * And is that Figure meant to include Sevastopol and the rest of Crimea or not? YuHuw (talk) 13:52, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
 * If you read what I wrote at 13:00, 10 January 2016, you will see that I said that that link "does not mention Karaite". You will see that I tracked through the edit history to see who posted that link, etc. --  Toddy1 (talk) 13:59, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes, but I think I have missed why you are using this as there is nothing about Crimean Karaites in it. YuHuw (talk) 14:41, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
 * I wrote at 13:00, 10 January 2016: "What seems to have happened was that the incorrect English citation was reinserted in the cleanup of edits by Special:Contributions/Kaz and his sock Special:Contributions/Budo."-- Toddy1 (talk) 14:43, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
 * If non-English sources are admissible here I have a lot or resources I could bring to this article to flesh it out if that is the case. YuHuw (talk) 14:47, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Thank you for correcting those numbers :) YuHuw (talk) 17:10, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

Hatnote

 * Now, why did you remove the edits by User:Imeriki al-Shimoni of 22:48,30 March 2012‎ and User:Wbm1058 of 17:30,1 January 2016?YuHuw (talk) 17:11, 10 January 2016 (UTC)
 * This is the usful disambiguation edit by User:Imeriki al-Shimoni of 22:48,30 March 2012‎ which was there for nearly 4 years before you removed it and I am still waiting for you to explain why? But maybe you are extremely busy? YuHuw (talk) 07:32, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
 * What are you talking about? That edit isn't removed. – Sabbatino (talk) 08:35, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Do you mind if we put this under a separate heading "Hatnote"? Your comment is nothing to do with the "2002 Statistics".--  Toddy1 (talk) 08:39, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Certainly if necessary to avoid confusion, please do as you probably know best how. YuHuw (talk) 09:27, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

My question is, why was it perfectly suitable for the past 4 years and suddenly it is objectionable ? In this article Nehemiah Gordon indicates that Karaylar is best used to distinguish the Christian (or Muslim?) group of Karaites claiming Turkic heritage from the Jewish Karaites. The works of Libor Nissim Valko according to the website provided also indicate that Karaite Jews of Eastern Europe must not be confused with those claiming non-Jewish heritage (whom as we have seen Nehemiah Gordon as well as  User:Imeriki al-Shimoni have called Karaylar) I do not think it helps to obscure a very clear (and I believe also important) difference between Jews and Christians. I would think such disambiguation it precisely what an encyclopedia must do isn't it? What are your fears? Why is it necessary to hide the distinction? YuHuw (talk) 07:04, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Four years ago was January 2012. There was no hat-note.-- Toddy1 (talk) 09:17, 17 January 2016 (UTC)


 * You would prefer if I had written 3 years and 9 months and 17 days etc.. ? YuHuw (talk) 09:40, 17 January 2016 (UTC)


 * We are, I hope, all here to improve Wikipedia. Just because something has been in place for four years does not mean that it is incapable of improvement. And if someone makes an edit, there is no implication that the former content was "objectionable", just that there was scope for improving it. Maproom (talk) 10:05, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
 * I certainly am. Please read through my explanation above clarifying the use by Nehemiah Gordon, Libor Nissim Valko and User:Imeriki al-Shimoni. There are clearly good reasons why the word Karaylar should not be conflated with the Krymkaraylar people here in question.YuHuw (talk) 10:10, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
 * What I would really like to know is how does it improve things? Why all of a sudden remove it without explanation or discussion? Ignoring of course User:Toddy1 calling me a sockpuppet and user User:Неполканов calling User:Wbm1058 a sockpuppet  -something I hope we have all moved past now right? YuHuw (talk) 10:20, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
 * In fact it seems this article is not even about Krymkaraylar but about Karaite Jews in Crimea am I right? YuHuw (talk) 10:34, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Or even East European Karaite Jews in general. YuHuw (talk) 10:35, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Is the "Crimean Karaim Association "Krymkaraylar" (Ассоциация крымских караимов “Крымкарайлар”)" mentioned in the article the official body for all East European Karaite Jews in general? Or is it only for Crimean Karaite Jews? YuHuw (talk) 10:48, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
 * The current wording of the hat-note is as follows:
 * "This article is about an ethno-religious group. For the Jewish religious movement, see Karaite Judaism. For the Turco-Mongol tribal confederation, see Keraites."
 * This is clear, factual, and easy to understand. That is good.--  Toddy1 (talk) 12:37, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
 * And what is the sudden problem with User:Imeriki al-Shimoni's inclusion of the word Karaylar? I just want some clarity. It seems there is a lot of context I don't understand. YuHuw (talk) 13:22, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Just commenting as someone who has been pinged back to this debate. I have to link to Karaylar to find out what that is, as I don't recall ever seeing the word before. I see that it redirects to this article. Now I do a text search on the article to find where the word is used. It appears to be the Turkish word for Karaites: Krymkaraylar is Krym (Crimean) karaylar (Karaites). Since many will not be familiar with the word, including it in the hatnote doesn't seem particularly helpful, and "Karaylar Turco-Mongol tribal confederation" would just be another way of saying "Karaite Turco-Mongol tribal confederation" or some transliteration variant of that. As presumably anyone directed to this article is looking for Karaite or one of its spelling variants in some form, then mentioning the word or a variant of it again in the hatnote may be redundant. In general hatnotes should be as short as possible; no longer than is necessary to clearly distinguish the different topics. Wbm1058 (talk) 14:22, 17 January 2016 (UTC)


 * "the Turkish word for Karaites" so in that case Karaylar should re-direct to the Karaites disambiguation page then. YuHuw (talk) 14:30, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
 * The pl of "Keraites" in Turkish is Keraitler.Turks do not use word Karay not for Keraites but for Karaites( Karaim -pl of Karai in Hebrew.). Karaites are not Kearaites.If in some old texts this word was used mistakenly this mistake should no be repeated in modern Wikipedia causing so desired by you disambig Неполканов (talk) 19:14, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
 * So then Nehemiah Gordan's usage here is just pointless? YuHuw (talk) 14:49, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Nehemiah's usage, User:Imeriki al-Shimoni's usage (which you did no one objected to for many years) are both very clear. Karaylar is a Turkic equivalent to the English word Karaites including all the ambiguities of that word. If you want to discuss your reverts of the Karaylar page (which if not a re-direct to Karaites should be a disambiguation in its own right) please discuss it there User:Неполканов YuHuw (talk) 22:49, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
 * 3 days with no response (not even an irrational one) so I still think User:Imeriki al-Shimoni's use of the word is valid. In light of this recent comment though:
 * "Most of the Crimean  Karaites  call themselves Karaylar and do  not claim any Jewish heritage but Turkic  (Khazarian not Keraite) origin. There are many exceptions in Moscow ,Eupatoria,Feodisia."
 * From User:Неполканов made here I finally understand why he removed  the disambiguation of User:Imeriki al-Shimoni but still no rational explanation why it was not seen as any harm for nearly 4 years. Anyway, one thing this discussion proves beyond any shadow of doubt, is that the word Karaylar is certainly very ambiguous. For almost 4 years it has been used on this page to refer to Turco-Mongol Karaits with no hint of objection and now User:Неполканов points out  that it is in fact the majority name for Crimean Karaites while Wbm1058 points out  it is but a Turkish equivalent for the english word Karaites in general and Nehemiah Gordon's article  indicates it should be used to refer only to non-Jewish Karaites of Christian persuasions. That should be a good enough reason for any objective editor to question the motives behind its sudden removal of User:Imeriki al-Shimoni's hatnote especially when followed by promoting banned User:Kaz redirection of Karaylar to subsequently be redirected here. One must wonder why if the editor agrees with User:Kaz so much what his motives are in calling other people sockpuppets (most recently here ) which I am going to ask you again User:Неполканов to refrain from. Please review WP:HARASS. I personally find your comments and contributions very welcome but your aggressive belligerence is completely unnecessary. YuHuw (talk) 14:56, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Please understand that Nehamia Gordon does not speak about Christians, but about Crimean Karaites(Karaim/Karailar) claiming non Jewish origin but considering Karaimism not Christianity as their national religion. SOme atheists between them starting from Seraya Shapshal also claim ths religion is not Judaism and has pagan otigin.Nothing about Keraites and about Nestorian Christianity. Also Nehamia Gordon is obviously not RS 19:42, 22 January 2016 (UTC)~

I have simplified the Hatnote down to bare minimum which I think looks much neater. I have strong suspicions that this "Karaimism" which you are describing (also on Talk:Karaite_Judaism) is nothing like Karaite Judaism at all, but as a gesture of goodwill, I have decided to take your word for it -for now at least. I am happy not to re-insert "Karaylar" as it is clearly a controversial term needing disambiguation itself. Concernign other things which have been left in the article for years but shouldn't really be there please see the next topic for discussion below. YuHuw (talk) 20:39, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

Since there was no consensus on the hatnote I have removed it until we can agree on what it should contain. YuHuw (talk) 17:31, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

Krymkaraylar
It seems to me that there are Crimean Karaites and there are Crimean Karaites, two very different groups being discussed in a mixed up fashion under one heading in this article. It would be much more helpful to seperate out the two groups. One is very clearly a religious people much like saying Roman Catholics or Russian Orthodox Christians etc., but the other "Crimean Karaites" are clearly out on a limb and very much different from the others. It reminds me of what has happened in the Chaldean Christian community where as a result of Anglican influence an Assyrian nationalist movement began to call themselves Assyrian Christians rather than Chaldeans and then their language Assyrian instead of Aramaic and now they are reviving an Assyrian identity claiming direct continuation of Assyrian pre-Christian tradition when they began only 100 years ago as Chaldeans. I see a similar thing happening here with the Crimean Karaites. They were once just a very unique denomination of Karaite Judaism but a group of them have taken baby steps further and further away from the religion to carve out a purely Turkic nationalist identity for themselves. This is the Krymkaraylar association. It seems they really need a section of their own here or elsewhere so that the rest of the article can be more clearly focused. YuHuw (talk) 20:39, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

I have started removing dubious material and if you would like to re-insert it lets see some souces proving the connections and let's avoid original research. YuHuw (talk) 17:31, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

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Understanding Jewish History: Texts and Commentaries By Steven Bayme, 1997
Please can you provide page numbers for the source you are citing in your reference:
 * Understanding Jewish History: Texts and Commentaries By Steven Bayme, 1997

-- Toddy1 (talk) 14:56, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

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Improvement in layout
Comparing two versions: The earlier one is easier to read.-- Toddy1 (talk) 20:39, 3 December 2017 (UTC)
 * 1) Mccapra at 03:11, 27 October 2017
 * 2) DocWatson42 at 18:21, 29 November 2017
 * That does not mean that grammar corrections should be reverted to bad version. On a side note, you cannot come and single me out about this. If you are writing a message then notify all involved sides and not just me. – Sabbatino (talk) 20:55, 3 December 2017 (UTC)

Non consent correction of the original text translation  that hides  the original author incompetence
Please consider again this edit

Please pay attention that the name used by Firkovich is Witolt (וויטולט ) The version before revert was the correct spelling of the original Hebrew source and should not be treated as Litvinism of the editor. The mention to Vitautas was explained by interwiki before the correction

Firkovich also used obviously wrong expression Crimea island instead of Crimea peninsula and mentioned 1218 year, while Vitautas was born in 1350. The English translation keeps this incompetence of the author.

In the same manner I suggest to leave the original Firkovich's use of the misspeled Polish name. Any correction of original text misinforms the reader(IMHO] regarding the questionable realibility of Firkovich's claim. basing  the Crimean Karaite and Lithuanian tradition Please also consider issue about the Firkovich forgery in wikipedia article. Неполканов (talk) 13:52, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

PDF 7.1 Paradoxes of the Ethnic History of the Polish-Lithuanian Karaites in the Twentieth and Twenty First Century
I started with this page and did a couple of evening's trawling through searches - this appears to be a useful resource for this page ?

https://www.degruyter.com/downloadpdf/books/9783110425260/9783110425260-010/9783110425260-010.pdf

7.1 Paradoxes of the Ethnic History of the Polish-Lithuanian Karaites in the Twentieth and Twenty First Century

I came across many interesting articles - shocking ones - but this was probably the best : I invite the writers to research this.DaiSaw (talk) 23:53, 26 December 2018 (UTC)

Huh - the whole book The Sons of Scripture must be available as pdfs of each chapter - but can I find the page which lists them ?

https://www.degruyter.com/downloadpdf/books/9783110425260/9783110425260-009/9783110425260-009.pdf

6 From the Soviet Stagnation to the Post-Soviet Renaissance (1945-2014)

https://www.degruyter.com/search?q1=karaites&searchBtn= OK : THERE ARE EIGHT RESULTS - SORRY ABOUT THIS !

https://www.degruyter.com/viewbooktoc/product/455765?rskey=lPmgD2&result=2 [FREE ACCESS ] Kizilov, Mikhail The Sons of Scripture The Karaites in Poland and Lithuania in the Twentieth Century

https://www.degruyter.com/view/product/522485?rskey=lPmgD2&result=1 [EXPENSIVE ACCESS ] Ankori, Zvi Karaites in Byzantium The Formative Years, 970–1100

https://www.degruyter.com/viewbooktoc/product/485649?rskey=lPmgD2&result=3 [EXPENSIVE ACCESS ] Rustow, Marina Heresy and the Politics of Community The Jews of the Fatimid Caliphate

https://www.degruyter.com/viewbooktoc/product/470915?rskey=lPmgD2&result=5 [NOT SPECIFICALLY ABOUT KARAITES ] Magocsi, Paul Robert Galicia A Historical Survey and Bibliographic Guide

https://www.degruyter.com/viewbooktoc/product/454772?rskey=lPmgD2&result=6 [ONE CHAPTER ON QARAITES IN MIDDLE EAST ] Jacobs, Martin Reorienting the East Jewish Travelers to the Medieval Muslim World

{ OK - SO WE ARE INTO THE REALM THERE OF THE GREATER QARAITE WORLD NOT THE CRIMEAN KARAITES - SO I WILL STOP ]DaiSaw (talk) 00:47, 27 December 2018 (UTC)